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Oasx posted:Magneto is one of the best Marvel villains ever because he essentially is right about what he says, it’s just that his actions are horrific. This is such a good way of putting it.
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Apr 7, 2023 08:10
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All the "Killmonger was right" takes seem to ignore the part where he wanted to start World War 3.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:34
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Speaking as someone who loves Black Panther: the "Killmonger was right" takes aren't engaging with the character's misdeeds. This is intentional, because the people saying that are criticizing the movie as part of a broader trend of mealy-mouthed liberal reformist garbage that has the villains use left-wing ideas to be righteously defeated by the hero enforcing the status quo, who would agree with them if only they didn't love killing so much (set aside that loving murder has nothing to do with their political ideologies). That said, I disagree with these takes in regards to BP, personally. Killmonger is different, to me, because the movie actually goes into the character's psychology, examines his goals, and ends in a mea culpa from the hero for the way Killmonger has been mistreated. My personal take is that Killmonger's plan isn't even supposed to be meaningfully leftist: he's citing collective racial trauma as a justification, but all his plan really entails is inverting victim and perpetrator by doing his own brand of imperialism to other nations as informed by his time in the CIA.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:46
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Killmonger also still smashed the status quo. T'Challa opened up Wakanda to the world, to the point that Black Panther 3 looks like it's going to be about the US and probably France invading.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:52
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Oasx posted:Karli is a little bit better but her complaint is really about how much better things were when half the world population were dead, and so she becomes a murderer and terrorist. Who is the funeral for? Why did the person at the funeral die? The story was told in a way that makes the viewer not remember or pay attention to the death and funeral of this person who is rather important to Karli while explicitly having it happen. Further it erases it with the narrative of the main story. This is to say explicit and personal motivations for Karli’s anger are directly shown. It also I think is intentionally a mirror of the John Walker story line.
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Apr 7, 2023 17:53
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Oasx posted:Magneto is one of the best Marvel villains ever because he essentially is right about what he says, it’s just that his actions are horrific. Karli's complaint was that the people who stepped up and moved from their homes to help and get better lives in the First World nations got pushed out like trash into crappy prisons/camps when that half the population came back. Also, someone who was a mother to her died of neglect because of it. Most of the Flag-smashers' "terrorism" was them stealing food/medicine/etc and giving it to those who were being denied it through that same indifference/neglect.
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Apr 7, 2023 18:27
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Rappaport posted:This is such a good way of putting it. But putting all the good motivation in the villain's hands, but making them murderous so the heroes can fight for a far worse status quo than said villain fights for is a poo poo take. And I'm super done with "what if we empathized with a monster" as some kind of masterstroke of depth. It very much isn't anymore, if it ever even was.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:12
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LividLiquid posted:It is, but that's a very 90s way of doing a villain that has inexplicably stuck around since then. It was a correction away from All Villains Are Cartoon Morons, and a much-needed one, but in the face of everything that's happened in the nearly 30 years since that correction, it's time for villains to be villains again, and for the real "how even the gently caress" to take over. People inexplicably support monsters because their hatred keeps them warm. We all live there now. We can either use fiction to run from this, which would be fine, or to get some much-needed catharsis relating to it, which would be fine too. This is a great summation of mostly where I'm at on this stuff. I don't think I'm particularly unique or unusual in that either.
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Apr 7, 2023 21:36
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Marvel's been doing the villain's understandable rationale since they were Timely. The Sub-Mariner's shtick has always been rear end in a top hat's Got a Point. The MCU hasn't really come to grips with the status quo on their Earth being vastly different from ours. I don't think they'll do this, of course, but Namor's plan of Talokan and Wakanda against Everybody Else can come true, with Talokan and Wakanda as the good guys (short of a war of extermination against the rest of us) (maybe) and even be scripted to win (short of a war of extermination against the rest of us) (maybe). Jai Guru Dave fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Apr 9, 2023 |
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Apr 9, 2023 01:24
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LividLiquid posted:It is, but that's a very 90s way of doing a villain that has inexplicably stuck around since then. It was a correction away from All Villains Are Cartoon Morons, and a much-needed one, but in the face of everything that's happened in the nearly 30 years since that correction, it's time for villains to be villains again, and for the real "how even the gently caress" to take over. People inexplicably support monsters because their hatred keeps them warm. We all live there now. We can either use fiction to run from this, which would be fine, or to get some much-needed catharsis relating to it, which would be fine too. I know I am very much a caricature of the bit by now, but in this line of thought, the MCU needs DOOM. Magneto was a Holocaust survivor, so that gives him some sympathy points for sure, but DOOM? Okay he wanted to save his mother from Hell at some point, but Victor's main life beats were blowing up his face with a science experiment gone wrong and him blaming Reed for it, and then being the dictator of a small nation. DOOM is mercurial, he travels in time just to beat up Reed some more, he's more of a villain than Yosemite Sam.
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Apr 9, 2023 06:45
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The MCU needs Doom cause I want to hear him go RICCHHHHAAARDDDSSSS 
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Apr 9, 2023 07:40
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LividLiquid posted:And I'm super done with "what if we empathized with a monster" as some kind of masterstroke of depth. It very much isn't anymore, if it ever even was. Yeah I like my villains to have a bit of depth but sometimes it's just nice to cheer when Spider-Man sticks a motherfucker to a wall because they want to turn people into dinosaurs.
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Apr 9, 2023 08:38
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Infinitum posted:The MCU needs Doom cause I want to see him get beaten by Squirrel Girl
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Apr 9, 2023 10:26
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Infinitum posted:The MCU needs Doom cause I want to see him submissively let Squirrel Girl get whatever she wants in Latveria
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Apr 9, 2023 15:24
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Why not both?
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Apr 9, 2023 16:18
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I'm just saying, if I got superpowers, the world would be a better place for currently marginalized groups but uhhhhhhhhhh there might be some mass Graves.
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Apr 9, 2023 16:56
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The only time I really saw mainstream comic superheroes going for 'kill the rich' it was The Authority. And they pretty much stopped after killing one dictator and made the point to come back a few issues later to say how pointless it all was because after they killed him they left.
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Apr 9, 2023 17:33
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"Don't kill the super evil guy or else you'll be just as bad as him" is propaganda level bullshit to keep oligarch's heads from ending up on pikes.
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Apr 9, 2023 22:59
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Floppychop posted:"Don't kill the super evil guy or else you'll be just as bad as him" is propaganda level bullshit to keep oligarch's heads from ending up on pikes.
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Apr 9, 2023 23:25
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Megillah Gorilla posted:The only time I really saw mainstream comic superheroes going for 'kill the rich' it was The Authority. They brought a bunch of refugees in their nation-wide spaceship, then they were defeated by a G7 powered redneck, and all the refugees died of starving because nobody cared about them being there, if I remember right.
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Apr 9, 2023 23:25
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Floppychop posted:"Don't kill the super evil guy or else you'll be just as bad as him" is propaganda level bullshit to keep oligarch's heads from ending up on pikes. like i said
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Apr 9, 2023 23:32
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Floppychop posted:"Don't kill the super evil guy or else you'll be just as bad as him" is propaganda level bullshit to keep oligarch's heads from ending up on pikes. Batman is already worse than the Joker. Soonmot posted:I'm just saying, if I got superpowers, the world would be a better place for currently marginalized groups but uhhhhhhhhhh there might be some mass Graves. grabbing every republican, putting them into a big net and throwing them into the sun.
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Apr 10, 2023 01:31
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twistedmentat posted:Batman is already worse than the Joker. it's the only way to be sure
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Apr 10, 2023 02:34
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YggdrasilTM posted:They brought a bunch of refugees in their nation-wide spaceship, then they were defeated by a G7 powered redneck, and all the refugees died of starving because nobody cared about them being there, if I remember right. Oh yeah, I forgot about that. But then, so did the Authority.
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Apr 10, 2023 04:17
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Soonmot posted:I'm just saying, if I got superpowers, the world would be a better place for currently marginalized groups but uhhhhhhhhhh there might be some mass Graves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMHCw3RqulY
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Apr 10, 2023 04:39
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YggdrasilTM posted:They brought a bunch of refugees in their nation-wide spaceship, then they were defeated by a G7 powered redneck, and all the refugees died of starving because nobody cared about them being there, if I remember right. No, you're misremembering. The refugees were mostly killed when the Carrier crashed after Seth took out the Authority, then the G7-controlled replacements jettisoned the rest.
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Apr 10, 2023 10:12
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Jedit posted:No, you're misremembering. The refugees were mostly killed when the Carrier crashed after Seth took out the Authority, then the G7-controlled replacements jettisoned the rest. That’s right. I do remember Apollo and Midnighter walking a corridor with refugees in it, and Midnighter saying something about him starting to become a little bit racist.
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Apr 10, 2023 10:52
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Oasx posted:Magneto is one of the best Marvel villains ever because he essentially is right about what he says, it’s just that his actions are horrific. Magneto's ideology is basically Nation of
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Apr 10, 2023 11:55
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Alhazred posted:Magneto's ideology is basically Nation of If Kevin Bacon shoots your mom in front of you to make a point, you're bound to get a little hosed up. I don't think anyone's saying they agree with Magneto's political points, such as they are, but within the Marvel cosmos he is a somewhat relatable villain. He is obsessed with "his people", and I'm sure someone's written a master's thesis on how Magneto would fit into the dialogue between Jean Amery and Primo Levi. I still say he did a very dirty on Mystique when she got hit with the anti-mutant gun, but he's a villain and an rear end in a top hat and we're meant to see him as such, even if he has what passes for nuance in the Marvel world.
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Apr 10, 2023 12:11
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Rappaport posted:I still say he did a very dirty on Mystique when she got hit with the anti-mutant gun, Hey man, we don't talk about The Last Stand
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Apr 10, 2023 18:17
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Rappaport posted:
The one I quoted does.
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Apr 10, 2023 19:23
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So Nick Fury survives Secret Invasion then? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuk77TjvfmE
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Apr 11, 2023 14:28
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The_Doctor posted:So Nick Fury survives Secret Invasion then? ok i haven't been hyped for an MCU movie for a while but this got me
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Apr 11, 2023 14:34
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I hope the movie gets into why certain people in the MCU seem to have it out for Captain Marvel. Fury, Talos, and Monica come to mind.
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Apr 11, 2023 14:40
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Also interesting to see Mohan Kapur in there still, especially after the allegations.
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Apr 11, 2023 14:43
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The_Doctor posted:So Nick Fury survives Secret Invasion then? This seems to be set immediately after/during Ms Marvel which I am pretty sure was set before Secret Invasion so don't assume anything
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Apr 11, 2023 14:46
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The_Doctor posted:Also interesting to see Mohan Kapur in there still, especially after the allegations. Filming would have been completed before the allegations ever came out
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Apr 11, 2023 14:53
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ookiimarukochan posted:This seems to be set immediately after/during Ms Marvel which I am pretty sure was set before Secret Invasion so don't assume anything Also the release date was pushed back twice. It was originally meant to come out before Secret Invasion.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:00
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The Marvels trailer detail spoiler The big baddy looks to be wearing the other bangle!!!! Maybe Kamala will get to wear both and something crazy happens! :hype:
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Apr 11, 2023 15:02
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Can't believe I'm gonna have to sit through a whole Captain Marvel movie to get more Kamala...
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Apr 11, 2023 15:17
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