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Paracaidas posted:Go figure, Dems in downtown Chicago while Republicans post up in a Chicago suburb. Milwaukee isn't a Chicago suburb though? It's a city on it's own right, and while there's sprawl between them it's over an hour and a half between them. It's probably more an effort of Republicans to try to get national Wisconsin voters, as they have a small foothold in the Milwaukee suburbs.
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Apr 11, 2023 21:46
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Arizona has no water restrictions of any kind statewide. Neither does Nevada. I mean, CA residential water usage per capita is flat or dropping pretty much everywhere in state, and the water restrictions were extremely painful to the people they should be. There are infrastructure steps that should be taken in state (wastewater recycling is nonexistent in LA county for example), but we basically all have to take the hit for Ag whenever things dry out. AZ hasn’t done that at all and insists on building awful suburbs and wrote their insane building codes so that a huge chunk of residences being built can get around proving durable water supplies. Keep in mind, Arizona had a shitload of aquifers that are essentially privatized Saudi water welfare, and California’s shipping of almonds and alfalfa are a massive problem that essentially dwarf all residential usage in the state. Like, Arizona is correct in stating people need water, but the fundamental problems can be summarized as “we probably shouldn’t grow things in Arizona”, “we need to stop exporting water-intensive crops from California”, and “tell the boomers to stop with the loving lawns”. Also worth noting that there are parts of CA/AZ Ag that are objectively good and should be supported. You don’t have vegetables in the winter without them so keep in mind that the actual low hanging fruit is to find ways to make it fundamentally untenable to turn water into almonds/pistachios/alfalfa first.
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Apr 11, 2023 21:48
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Google Jeb Bush posted:about 20% of arizona water use is residential: https://new.azwater.gov/conservation/public-resources#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20each%20Arizona%20resident,%2C%20washing%20cars%2C%20etc.) there's a better link from the same site here. lawns are in "municipal" use mostly. cities, lawns, people, all of that uses a lot less water than agriculture https://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts  the largest value crop in arizona by far? silage, aka grass to feed animals https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/Ag_Overview/stateOverview.php?state=ARIZONA
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Apr 11, 2023 21:52
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Bar Ran Dun posted:That last time I was in Phoenix it was stunning how few lawns and grass there was. East Valley expat here, it may depend on where you are. The wealthy and heavily-Trumpy parts of Gilbert and Scottsdale are all big, green lawns, parks, and golf courses. Meanwhile neighborhoods I saw in Tempe had more responsible lawns and trails with local foliage. Golf courses may account for only a small amount of water usage but if you haven't been to the Valley, I promise you are underestimating the number of courses there. Phoenix is undergoing both water and housing / available land crises right now, and so much area being devoted to different golf courses is irresponsible for both.
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Apr 11, 2023 21:55
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Google Jeb Bush posted:about 20% of arizona water use is residential: https://new.azwater.gov/conservation/public-resources#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20each%20Arizona%20resident,%2C%20washing%20cars%2C%20etc.) for comparison i dug up this report california legislative analyst office report https://lao.ca.gov/Publications/Report/4509 (see the section "Questionable Whether Water Conservation Is Most Effective Use of State Funding.") california average residential use in per day in 2021 was 93 gallons (no indoor/outdoor break down, and will probably always be significantly lower than arizona's usage since the average temperature is lower in california). urban/agricultural split is 20/80, and agriculture is specifically called out as an area of opportunity. residential use per capita has decreased 14% since 2014. would be interesting to see how per capita water usage rates have changed over that period
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Apr 11, 2023 22:02
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One of the sights I recommend people check out in Phoenix is the desert botanical garden. It's really lovely and all native or native-ish plants. Obviously inspirational for how to make a nice lawn while complying with Phoenix's conditions.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:04
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Main Paineframe posted:This seems a bit inconsistent here. You say that the people who believe the conspiracy theories are "nutters" who "will never change their mind no matter the evidence", but then you suggest that the evidence is needed as a counterargument to those conspiracy theories. But if the only people who believe the conspiracy theories are unconvinceable, then there's not really any point in lining up counterarguments. Its only inconsistent if you think that every person who has a mild distrust for what the govt tells them is a conspiracy theorist who is incapable of changing their mind. There is a vast spectrum that goes from 'Everything the government tells you is a lie' to literal proven conspiracy theories like the CIA drugged people in attempts to discover mind control. (MKUltra) Then on top of that, there are people who are not conspiracy theorists, everyday people who don't spend their hours fact-checking every eye-brow raising thing breathlessly reported on Right Wing Radio. Public releasing of information will help reduce the ability of those to spread a false narrative. The Streisand Effect is a an example of psychological reactance, where once people are aware that some information is being kept from them, they are significantly more motivated to get and spread it, so I think it perfectly fits this situation.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:05
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Squibbles posted:lolling at the city of Phoenix: It's pretty accurate. Securing the water supply was a big part of planning increased settlement in Arizona going back to the late 1800s, and the dams on the Salt River were one of the big federal projects of their day. Urban planning as well as agriculture was a big part of the reasoning, since water sources define where you can really sustain infrastructure, and it's way more visible in the desert than it is back east. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Roosevelt_Dam As for landscaping water use, Phoenix used to have a lot more lawns than Tucson or Vegas but they've gotten less common over time. As for more public/commercial areas, the golf courses and decorative ponds/gardens I've seen there use a lot of reclaimed water rather than potable. I have to imagine you get used to the course smelling like piss.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:08
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Xeriscaping looks much nicer than a close mown lawn as well as supporting birds and other wildlife.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:08
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Dull Fork posted:There is a vast spectrum that goes from 'Everything the government tells you is a lie' to literal proven conspiracy theories like the CIA drugged people in attempts to discover mind control. (MKUltra) Even there, there's a pretty wide gulf between the conspiracy theory "The CIA thought drugs could mind-control people like a comic book plot" and the proven "The CIA thought drugs could make torture give better information and sneakily mess with enemy officials' heads."
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Apr 11, 2023 22:14
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Killer robot posted:It's pretty accurate. Securing the water supply was a big part of planning increased settlement in Arizona going back to the late 1800s, and the dams on the Salt River were one of the big federal projects of their day. Urban planning as well as agriculture was a big part of the reasoning, since water sources define where you can really sustain infrastructure, and it's way more visible in the desert than it is back east. You're joking, but reclaimed water doesn't smell.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:19
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Killer robot posted:Even there, there's a pretty wide gulf between the conspiracy theory "The CIA thought drugs could mind-control people like a comic book plot" and the proven "The CIA thought drugs could make torture give better information and sneakily mess with enemy officials' heads." The CIA absolutely thought they could mind control people like a comic book plot until they started throwing money around and none of those attempts worked. The original MKULTRA work was absolutely in a real truth serum. Enhancing torture just became the goal as the idea of a truth serum became more and more ridiculous. Though that explanation of MKULTRA that I have is also reductionist since it was really a lot of different projects. Like a CIA public works project where they found different colleges and scientists already looking into those ideas and then funding them and influencing them. Lots of studies were funded with those running them having no idea the money was coming from the CIA.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:20
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Mizaq posted:Wait a minute, where do you think Califnoria’s farms are located at? What aspect of farming in the southwest is not effective? Where is a more effective area for farming produce in the United States? The Central Valley doesn't use Colorado River water. It's alfalfa farming in the Imperial Valley.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:21
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Google Jeb Bush posted:One of the sights I recommend people check out in Phoenix is the desert botanical garden. It's really lovely and all native or native-ish plants. Obviously inspirational for how to make a nice lawn while complying with Phoenix's conditions. Similarly, there's a Water Works museum in Vegas (in the Springs Preserve, which also has a botanical garden) that goes through all of same kind of things you just mentioned but in regards to Nevada.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:24
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Crows Turn Off posted:Did they? What consequences will the Republicans face? Judgy Fucker posted:They have to be in the same, very large room as an angry Black man my commentary about them loving up is not about immediate consequences for the GOP, it's about how they made a massive unforced error and gave their opponents an enormous PR win for zero gain. basically it's this: Sax Mortar posted:Best I can think of is that they put two young and (so far) seemingly legitimately good men in the national spotlight that we almost certainly wouldn't have heard otherwise. Time will tell based on what they're able to do with said spotlight.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:25
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Killer robot posted:Even there, there's a pretty wide gulf between the conspiracy theory "The CIA thought drugs could mind-control people like a comic book plot" and the proven "The CIA thought drugs could make torture give better information and sneakily mess with enemy officials' heads." Indeed! If only there was a completely full, open, and public accounting of the project people might have a clearer idea of what actually went down. Instead we had to rely on 1977 FOIA requests, then in 2001 they declassified further documents. Clearly didn't provide the whole picture there.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:27
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Dull Fork posted:Its only inconsistent if you think that every person who has a mild distrust for what the govt tells them is a conspiracy theorist who is incapable of changing their mind. You're comparing "the cops said the killer mostly wrote about idolizing previous school shooters" to MKUltra coverups. That seems absolutely unreasonable to me. The thing is that "distrust" is not a blank check to just reject everything. You still have to ask questions like "is the government's position implausible" or "what motive would they have to lie about it" or "is there something important that could be hidden by lying about it". But none of those really have satisfactory answers - after all, it doesn't really matter what the shooter wrote down in the first place. As was pointed out last time this conversation happened, there is no good or valid reason for someone to shoot up an elementary school. And regardless of this particular shooter's ideology, it's just one of numerous mass shootings committed for all sorts of different reasons over the past few years; hyperfocusing on the circumstances of any individual event just draws attention away from the systemic issues. Quoting the Wikipedia article on "Streisand Effect" and taking one line out of context doesn't change the fact that the Streisand Effect is mostly relevant to information that was already out there. There's tons of cases where information is hidden just fine, completely successfully. Streisand herself, and most other Streisand Effect victims, sought to remove information that was already publicly available.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:31
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Google Jeb Bush posted:about 20% of arizona water use is residential: https://new.azwater.gov/conservation/public-resources#:~:text=On%20average%2C%20each%20Arizona%20resident,%2C%20washing%20cars%2C%20etc.) A 15% reduction in water use seems like a massive amount, considering basically all outdoor residential use is optional. 
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Apr 11, 2023 22:36
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Leon Sumbitches posted:You're joking, but reclaimed water doesn't smell. It doesn't really smell like piss, fair. But it absolutely does smell enough that you can tell places where it's in use. I think it's a combination of leftover treatment chemicals and algal blooms growing in residual organics.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:39
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Killer robot posted:It doesn't really smell like piss, fair. But it absolutely does smell enough that you can tell places where it's in use. I think it's a combination of leftover treatment chemicals and algal blooms growing in residual organics. It's just chlorine
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Apr 11, 2023 22:43
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Main Paineframe posted:You're comparing "the cops said the killer mostly wrote about idolizing previous school shooters" to MKUltra coverups. That seems absolutely unreasonable to me. I am not comparing the two, I was showing you how wide the breadth of disbelief in what a government official said can be. From 'everything the govt says is a lie' to mkultra cover ups. With such a wide spectrum of distrust in the government, hearing a government official say 'yeah hoo boy the shooter had a manifesto but don't worry nothing to see here' slots very easily within that wide spectrum of distrust of what the government says, and people wanting to know more. You're flat out wrong about a criminal's writings never being worth reading. People act the way they act for reasons. We might not get them from these writings, but I'd like the chance for greater study all the same, the more information you have on a person the better you can attempt to reconstruct their reasonings, and THEN try to change your society so that similar people in the future don't take the same path. I'm sorry you think we shouldn't study killers (spree or otherwise), I think such a tactic will only hamper efforts to reduce shootings. (Yes yes, provide for people's material needs, and undo America's love of guns and a lot of this goes away.) You can keep trying to out pedant me on Streisand Effect if you like, but we wouldn't be talking about releasing the manifesto, if the cops didn't say they found one in the first place. That the manifesto exists is public knowledge. Therefore, people wanting to know what is in it is the Streisand Effect. Btw britannica agrees with me. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Streisand-effect "Streisand effect, phenomenon in which an attempt to censor, hide, or otherwise draw attention away from something only serves to attract more attention to it." In this case, the cops saying 'there is nothing in there worth reading' is the attempt to draw attention away from it. Which serves to make some people more curious about what the contents are.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:49
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I'm skeptical that published manifestos actually do much inspiration. You don't have a lot of copy cats of people like Christopher Dorner or Kazinski, incredibly famous manifestos read by a lot of people. And shooters like Hale are just emotional babbling that the shooters seem to come into naturally, no real inspiration needed except themselves.
Gumball Gumption fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 23:11
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's just chlorine And even then, they're *supposed* to remove most of the chlorine. Wastewater, when properly treated, is no different from non-polluted river water. Also is a good source of potassium for fertilizer!
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Apr 11, 2023 23:55
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I am going to ask a monumentally stupid question…why can’t California use ocean water and clean and filtrate the salt and stuff out? Do we not have the tech for such a thing? Maybe not for drinking but for lawns and agriculture.
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Apr 11, 2023 23:59
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Gatts posted:I am going to ask a monumentally stupid question…why can’t California use ocean water and clean and filtrate the salt and stuff out? Do we not have the tech for such a thing? Maybe not for drinking but for lawns and agriculture. Desalination is really, really expensive
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Apr 12, 2023 00:01
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Gatts posted:I am going to ask a monumentally stupid question…why can’t California use ocean water and clean and filtrate the salt and stuff out? Do we not have the tech for such a thing? Maybe not for drinking but for lawns and agriculture. Latent heat of vaporization. Boiling takes a lot of energy. Filters, membranes, and reverse osmosis are expensive.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:02
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Ah. Cost. Right.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:05
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Gatts posted:Ah. Cost. Right. It's not a dumb question though, it definitely seems obvious. The Saudis can do desalination because they're an autocratic petrostate, California probably could afford it but with more stakeholders than just a king using money gets a lot more complicated
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Apr 12, 2023 00:07
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cost, and also "what do you do with the leftover goop that used to be the salt and assorted nasties in the water"
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Apr 12, 2023 00:14
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Desalination will be the answer if A ) the west gets drier, which it is doing, and B ) no one budges on this inter-state dilemma, which I'd give about 50 / 50 chance of happening anytime soon. California is at least well poised to build desalination since they have a lot of land and sunlight to build solar to power the operation, and definitely have the capital to make it all happen. But yeah, things will have to get worse before they consider forking up the initial investments.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:15
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Does the federal government have an obligation to perpetuate states that are no longer habitable?
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Apr 12, 2023 00:17
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Mooseontheloose posted:Can someone more familiar with Tennessee tell us if it's possible to flip it? Places like North Carolina, Arizona, and Georgia I get because they are growing states, rapidly urbanizing or expanding. Can Tennessee be organized in any fashion outside of Memphis and Knoxville (though we should always be organizing!) On the whole, Tennessee was by far the largest state to go for Trump by more than 20 points, so there are plenty of states that would flip before it even in a good environment.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:21
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Tiny Timbs posted:Does the federal government have an obligation to perpetuate states that are no longer habitable? It has an explicit humanitarian obligation to do something to protect the citizens' welfare and an implicit political obligation. But the states are all quite habitable, just not indefinitely under current conditions. Biden can beat up on California a bit because everyone with knowledge of the matter knows that agribusiness is the problem, and what are you gonna do, vote for Trump (and face the same dilemma regardless, but now with a president who hates you)? I think if push comes to shove, the almond and rice farms will get to pound sand, which is already kinda happening absent any interference by Biden or anyone else. FWIW we are also getting water shortage denialism out here any which way they can think to play it. For example, the above average snow pack this year delayed what was otherwise going to be a more difficult year, but news stories are now just asking questions about whether the multidecade drought is now over.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:25
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Salt water is hell on parts too. We might have trouble keeping it up at scale
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Apr 12, 2023 00:26
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Gatts posted:I am going to ask a monumentally stupid question…why can’t California use ocean water and clean and filtrate the salt and stuff out? Do we not have the tech for such a thing? Maybe not for drinking but for lawns and agriculture. the upfront cost of the infrastructure, limited potential capacity compared to overall demand, extreme energy requirements which would complicate the effort to make renewables the main source of power for the state, the production of concentrated brine inherent to the process that is difficult to deal with without killing wetland and nearshore plants and animals, and the best locations being on valuable coastal real estate where every resident has a law firm on retainer focusing on efficiency increases and especially improved waste water reuse are better ways to go then filtering millions of acre feet of sea water
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Apr 12, 2023 00:38
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My family came to Tennessee back when it was still North Carolina. I've lived in all three grand divisions and attended both the University of Tennessee and University of Memphis. I personally know four state representatives and two senators, and former governor Bill Haslem and I used to have neighboring offices. I'm pretty in touch with politics across the state across a good demographic spread. I say all of that so this doesn't look like a poo poo post. I've thought about it a lot and have ideas, but I really can't come up with a platform that would make the Democrats competitive in Tennessee.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:39
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Tiny Timbs posted:Does the federal government have an obligation to perpetuate states that are no longer habitable?
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Apr 12, 2023 00:41
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JesustheDarkLord posted:I've thought about it a lot and have ideas, but I really can't come up with a platform that would make the Democrats competitive in Tennessee. Making Rocky Top the national anthem?
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Apr 12, 2023 00:42
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Not only is desalination expensive, the water crisis is farmers getting artificially cheap water to grow low value crops like alfalfa. If you put in a desalination plant and residential users start using that, there's just more subsidized water for desert alfalfa. It's less that there isn't enough water and more that the law gives farmers a natural right to use all the water.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:42
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g0del posted:The southwest is "no longer habitable" in the same way that Social Security is "running out of money" - it's only true if we're completely unwilling to inconvenience rich people/businesses. I didn't mean now. These water rights negotiations are short-term solutions to a problem that will inevitably get much worse over the next couple of decades. How does the federal government come up with an egalitarian solution when we're not arguing about lawns vs. agriculture but about the existence of any water that isn't trucked in?
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Apr 12, 2023 00:44
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