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GateOfD posted:aww poo poo. Stuff is hitting the fan now Yep, all the strange poo poo happening to the west is main plot from, primarily, CS2. Whenever the trade conference is happening is during the cold open of CS1.
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Apr 10, 2023 18:25
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Tesseraction posted:Yep, all the strange poo poo happening to the west is main plot from, primarily, CS2. Whenever the trade conference is happening is during the cold open of CS1. Which does need to some goofy stuff orbment-wise where the next-gen orbments were technically made before the ones you're using in Azure The orbment development timeline has always been complete nonsense though MythosDragon posted:The problem with them in azure is that the intermission is in the early game and is basically how you commit to them, so its a lot more stressful doing the math than late game after you've gotten all the other points. There's actually a ton of leeway and it's very trivial to max everyone, but only if you already know how it all works. The game of course helpfully tells you nothing except their current BP(and used to not even tell you that much). You can max all the NPCs at least by just making sure to talk to them whenever possible(and buying KeA plushies which you should be doing anyway if you're not a monster) Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Yeah, Azure's hidden quests are extra mean because some of them show up without the rest of the city's dialogue having changed. You have to find the one place on the map which has changed - which may, in some cases, be out of town. No guide? Then gently caress YOU. Yeah we're still in the Sky sidequest realm of "talk to this specific person in the rear end-end of nowhere at a specific time frame or go gently caress yourself", but Azure amps it up for some reason. Riboten Remedy was especially dickish. Actually so is the supply delivery quest which requires overhearing a specific conversation and gives no indication that you've actually enabled the quest, though at least several other NPCs point it out as an issue. Ursula in general is just sidequest hell.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:33
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Yinlock posted:Which does need to some goofy stuff orbment-wise where the next-gen orbments were technically made before the ones you're using in Azure Well remember that the ARCUS units were only distributed to Class VII because they needed lots of data on how Linking worked, so it's reasonable to extrapolate that Reinford and Zeiss invented Enigmas simultaneously and Reinford snuck the extra functionality into the ARCUS units a few months later. Remember that in the CS2 epilogue, Lloyd and Rixia had only just gotten ARCUS units because they'd been smuggled out of Erebonia to Crossbell or something. Then, two years later in CS3, ARCUS has become the industry standard and anyone can link with anyone, because Class VII worked out all the kinks.
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Apr 11, 2023 21:03
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Some Numbers posted:Well remember that the ARCUS units were only distributed to Class VII because they needed lots of data on how Linking worked, so it's reasonable to extrapolate that Reinford and Zeiss invented Enigmas simultaneously and Reinford snuck the extra functionality into the ARCUS units a few months later. That's plausible, but what stuck out to me more was the fact that we're amazed at barebones voice functionality in Zero and months later Erebonians are making long-distance calls on magic flip-phones. Orbment development is nonsense but it's a necessary evil to explain why you suddenly have a new battle mechanic and/or dropped all your quartz between games so whatever it's not a big deal. e: SC's was definitely the most hamfisted version of this. "we added a slot, but all your quartz doesn't fit now because shut up. also no you can't keep using the old one until you have enough new quartz to outfit the new one, that's impossible." Yinlock fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 21:13
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Nah, I think Azure's is the most ham-fisted. "You're about to leave right now on an important mission to capture some highly dangerous fugitives? Give us your old orbment so you can have this new one. No, we aren't giving you any quartz for it, so it's just a paperweight."
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Apr 11, 2023 21:59
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Interestingly I've been replaying CS starting from 1 while also finally playing Sky 3rd and also a new replaythrough of Zero and it's kinda funny seeing some of the things that either seemed more important back then or otherwise throwaway lines that ended up hinting at future plot points. An example of the latter (CS2 endgame onwards) Claire being called the head of the Ironbloods and Osbourne noting that while she is extremely capable he has a much more critically important member, hinting at the Rufus reveal but initially being perceived as Lechter.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:05
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Yinlock posted:That's plausible, but what stuck out to me more was the fact that we're amazed at barebones voice functionality in Zero and months later Erebonians are making long-distance calls on magic flip-phones. Orbment development is nonsense but it's a necessary evil to explain why you suddenly have a new battle mechanic and/or dropped all your quartz between games so whatever it's not a big deal. I miss the Sky setting where there was this interesting mix of semi-modern tech and much less modern towns/villages. The later games retain this somewhat, but it's not quite the same. The clockwork orbments also looked cool.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:05
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Nah, I think Azure's is the most ham-fisted. "You're about to leave right now on an important mission to capture some highly dangerous fugitives? Give us your old orbment so you can have this new one. No, we aren't giving you any quartz for it, so it's just a paperweight." My guess on that is with Arios and Dudders on the job Lloyd and Noel were considered afterthoughts and just got tossed some spares. The fact that they didn't even get master quartz was insanely dickish though. Crossbell's splintered government does have a single uniting principle: making Lloyd's life as difficult as possible Ytlaya posted:I miss the Sky setting where there was this interesting mix of semi-modern tech and much less modern towns/villages. The later games retain this somewhat, but it's not quite the same. It was neat but I also like watching the modernization as it's happening, and the hyper-speed of it causing some interesting worldbuilding like Crossbell's hyper-modern city and quaint rural countryside being right next to each-other. I mean I know that's a normal RPG thing but it's actually pointed out as weird in Zero Yinlock fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Apr 11, 2023 |
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Apr 11, 2023 22:12
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Ytlaya posted:I miss the Sky setting where there was this interesting mix of semi-modern tech and much less modern towns/villages. The later games retain this somewhat, but it's not quite the same. I said this in this thread a while ago and somebody got on my rear end about liking "generic fantasy settings" lol
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Apr 11, 2023 22:13
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i mean sky just looked like that because it was liberl, liberl is defined by being the low tech backwoods, thats a recurring plot point. the aesthetic is pleasant but i get why the other games dont look like that
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Apr 11, 2023 22:41
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I can understand the disconnect, though, as Liberl is, according to one of the doors in Sky 3rd, meant to be the only country that took orbal tech seriously until they kicked Erebonia's poo poo in during the 100 day war. By all means orbal technology is supposed to be kicking off but it's understandable why people are confused why the home of the orbal revolution's seeds bearing fruit is much pitifully backwater compared to Crossbell. This is explained by Crossbell being smaller and more centralised (and also not a monarchy) and also having both Erebonia and Calvard trying to spend their way into good graces, but I can also understand why someone would be somewhat taken aback by Liberl's comparative bucolic.
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Apr 11, 2023 23:48
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If you're complaining about how tech works in the series and how it's too advanced then you're not going to like the Calvard arc, which has a burgeoning movie industry, regular office jobs with orbal computers, megacorporations, cybernetic enhancements, artificial intelligences and the orbal equivalent of nuclear weapons. Liberl is kind of a backwater country which still has a monarchy and doesn't even have proper roads to travel between settlements which aren't filled with monsters, just footpaths. Despite Zeiss being fairly advanced, every other town and city in Liberl is very not advanced, which makes sense given that overreliance on technology from the Aureole caused problems in Liber Ark.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:13
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Tesseraction posted:I can understand the disconnect, though, as Liberl is, according to one of the doors in Sky 3rd, meant to be the only country that took orbal tech seriously until they kicked Erebonia's poo poo in during the 100 day war. By all means orbal technology is supposed to be kicking off but it's understandable why people are confused why the home of the orbal revolution's seeds bearing fruit is much pitifully backwater compared to Crossbell. Liberl's orbal development is also very airship-focused, and their ships are still miles ahead of everyone else's(besides Ouroboros but they cheat). And it's a pain in the rear end to traverse on foot(according to Zero) so I assume that implementing any real heavy orbal infrastructure(e: or hell even a normal-rear end railway) is going to be an ordeal. There's enough plausibility there. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 00:19
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erebonia, crossbell, and calvard also already had heavy industry. those industries could easily pivot to orbal technology. Reinford is a way bigger organization than the Zeiss Factory, so once they made the jump it makes sense they'd outpace them.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:53
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Endorph posted:erebonia, crossbell, and calvard also already had heavy industry. those industries could easily pivot to orbal technology. Reinford is a way bigger organization than the Zeiss Factory, so once they made the jump it makes sense they'd outpace them. iirc Crossbell only has mining industry-wise(and it's strictly regulated), they don't really manufacture anything on that scale(besides corruption) but having a lot of money and being in the middle of everyone else works well enough as a substitute. And yeah ZCF stuff tends to be very expensive but very high-quality, they're not really a mass-production kinda place.
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Apr 12, 2023 01:11
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Erebonia definitely had heavy orbal industry before they lost hard in the Hundred Days War. I would be very surprised if their tanks weren't orbal, for instance. They also had a railway system spanning their entire country. I'd have to check the exact details on what was built when, but they were definitely taking orbal tech seriously before the war. Liberl simply pioneered the use of high power aircraft that allowed them to respond in ways that Erebonia's land-based forces were unable to keep up with. Where Liberl lacks is quantity, as the 4 floor ZCF is constantly compared to the gigantic weapons corporation with assets on the level of the IBC.
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Apr 12, 2023 01:37
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kuro does mention that erebonia and calvard used oil prior to the orbal revolution, so its possible they had some of that still in service at the time of the hundred days war
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Apr 12, 2023 02:05
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The orbal revolution was 50 years prior, though, with the Hundred Days War being, what, 10 years prior? Checking says that Liberl completed their first airship in 1168, 24 years before the war in 1192. Plans for the Orbal Network was announced in 1190. Cyouni fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 02:09
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Cyouni posted:Erebonia definitely had heavy orbal industry before they lost hard in the Hundred Days War. I would be very surprised if their tanks weren't orbal, for instance. They also had a railway system spanning their entire country. I'd have to check the exact details on what was built when, but they were definitely taking orbal tech seriously before the war. IIRC, it was Osborne who massively expanded the railway system in Erebonia, partially to modernize the country, partially so his flunkies under the guise of being the "train police" could claim jurisdiction that used to be exclusively the local nobles' territory. Osborne didn't become chancellor until after the war, so the railway expansion is fairly recent too. As for ZCF, I wouldn't take its 4 floors literally, just like Grancel has more than 80 or so people living there. It's also mentioned that the largest part of ZCF is actually its underground workshops that the player never gets to explore.
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Apr 12, 2023 08:07
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Yinlock posted:It was neat but I also like watching the modernization as it's happening, and the hyper-speed of it causing some interesting worldbuilding like Crossbell's hyper-modern city and quaint rural countryside being right next to each-other. I think the problem is that it doesn't really feel gradual. It's like "one city has one of those massive old school computers that is basically like an orbment version of a vacuum tube computer" and then a couple years later all the main characters have cell phones with video chat and the internet and video games etc. Also, Crossbell didn't really bother me much - it has the beginnings of the cell-phone orbments, but Crossbell is also obviously a very unique place, so stuff like the skyscrapers or the department store with orbal vacuums and stuff doesn't bother me. If you had to compare it with the modern world, it's like most places were some sort of mix of the early 20th century with bits of mid-20th century tech, and then suddenly early 21st century stuff started showing up (immediately followed by stuff that is even more futuristic than our world, like mechs). None of this is a big issue (and isn't even close to being one of the top problems I had with the Cold Steel series), but it's still a bit of a shame. edit: Another thing that seems to become less prominent post-Sky is "artifacts as these weird magical things that no one understands that sometimes find their way into the hands of various people." I liked the mystery to these weird things from the previous civilization, and the "politics" (if you can really call it that) of trying to remove them from society. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 08:21 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 08:17
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I mean, Orbal tech can do a lot more than our modern world's equivalents can do, cleaner as well, so it'd make sense that tech would move faster in Zemuria than it would in ours.
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Apr 12, 2023 08:36
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Ytlaya posted:I think the problem is that it doesn't really feel gradual. It's like "one city has one of those massive old school computers that is basically like an orbment version of a vacuum tube computer" and then a couple years later all the main characters have cell phones with video chat and the internet and video games etc. Also, Crossbell didn't really bother me much - it has the beginnings of the cell-phone orbments, but Crossbell is also obviously a very unique place, so stuff like the skyscrapers or the department store with orbal vacuums and stuff doesn't bother me. Well, the video chat feature of the cell phone orbments is pretty explicitly powered by Olivier's artifact, at least. Granted, there are definitely vid screens shown in airships that definitely don't use the Sonorous Seashell. But this also tracks with Liberl and the Church having better technology. Tech in Zemuria has taken a strange path. Some of it is extremely advanced, and other stuff is still scratching the surface. I imagine, in addition to the energy source operating under very different rules, there's also less need for certain tech.
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Apr 12, 2023 08:57
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Endorph posted:kuro does mention that erebonia and calvard used oil prior to the orbal revolution, so its possible they had some of that still in service at the time of the hundred days war Hell, Erebonia explicitly has to use oil-powered tanks during the Orbal Shutdown Phenomenon of Sky SC, although Olivert does admit in 3rd that at best they only have 1-2 divisions' worth and it was mostly about dickwaving to other countries that they're not entirely helpless without orbal tech.
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Apr 12, 2023 10:51
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does "I sense the higher elements at work here" mean more in the sky series Whenever Tio says it or its mentioned in Cold Steel (I think they do..), I'm just like errr okay... I mean I can infer they're saying the place is suspicious, but I don't think they really established stuff about balance of elements and nature much in the series. The 'magic' is a orbal technology thing. And then we have a bunch of people that just outright have superpowers.
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Apr 12, 2023 15:23
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GateOfD posted:does "I sense the higher elements at work here" mean more in the sky series did you play Sky 3rd? If not, for the first two Sky games, the higher elements weren't a factor at all. They existed, but nothing was strong against or weak to any of the three. Then, in Sky 3rd, which explicitly takes place in an alternate dimension with some parallels to Dante's Inferno, all three higher elements are active and monsters are super weak to several of them. Considering that the two protagonists are members of the church and these monsters are literally devils from their scriptures, yes, it's a big loving deal. Some Numbers fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 15:51
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Yeah when they say that it's basically short-hand for "oh, there's supernatural/mythological forces at work here, be careful".
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Apr 12, 2023 16:03
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Junpei posted:I mean, Orbal tech can do a lot more than our modern world's equivalents can do, cleaner as well, so it'd make sense that tech would move faster in Zemuria than it would in ours. It's also that for most of Sky it was off-screen, but the tech was still there. For instance, in the Arseille in late Sky you could see their big video communication screen. Or the voice print security tech on the Glorious.
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Apr 12, 2023 16:11
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It's entirely possible that we're grossly underestimating how strong the ZCF computer actually is, because it has a very crummy UI. It might just be that no one cared to make a prettier one, yet. And that would track. Technology in Zemuria is improving at a far faster rate than art. Rock and Metal are nearly as new as one another, but somewhat explicitly only exist now because of the sound only now being possible. Motorcycles are extremely new, still, because no one thought of using the existing tech that way. So like, the big idea poo poo is happening ultra fast, and there's huge gaps that need to slowly be filled in, to catch up.
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Apr 12, 2023 17:27
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Wishing Renne a happy birthday as Kuro 2 reveals her birthday is April 12th.Some Numbers posted:did you play Sky 3rd? I think they've mentioned before that they only played the games released on Switch, meaning they're SoL when it comes to Sky.
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Apr 12, 2023 19:29
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GateOfD posted:does "I sense the higher elements at work here" mean more in the sky series It's based on the idea of earth, wind, fire and water. Those are supposed to be the four elements, and if you look at your quartz the first four are earth, water, fire and wind. When they talk about the "higher elements" it's when time, space and mirage are there too, basically the implication of an area where our normal understanding of elements is not enough. Hence why in those areas some weird status effects are possible like vanish or insta-death.
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Apr 12, 2023 19:34
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It's also that the Zemurian standard is earth/water/fire/wind. Assuming standard circumstances, you won't find anything that is differently affected by time/space/mirage. So the higher elements being active is like literally stepping into a different world/dimension.
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Apr 12, 2023 20:15
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Generally the higher elements being active means that reality is unstable enough that strange things start happening in battles and weird poo poo from other planes start showing up. Usually demons. And yeah it's also completely unnatural so there's always some kind of cause for it, and stopping that is kind of important because demons. e: This is also why the church aggressively pursuing artifacts comes off as much less sinister than it would normally be, because if they don't do that then grandpa's antique clock will ring one day and suddenly beelzebub is on the dinner table Veryslightlymad posted:It's entirely possible that we're grossly underestimating how strong the ZCF computer actually is, because it has a very crummy UI. It might just be that no one cared to make a prettier one, yet. IMO this is a real important part of the worldbuilding too. It's how you run into unique situations like Liberl's almost entirely airship-based soceity where there's barely any real roads and people just fly from place to place Yinlock fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 20:19
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I honestly hand wave away the speed that technology develops since it just seems like a necessary evil for that portion of the overarching story about technological development.
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Apr 12, 2023 20:39
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I just think its funny that clones came before game consoles. Also barring the fact that the Septerrions are also artifacts, artifacts themselves kinda just dont matter to Trails. You see what, 3 of them used?
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Apr 12, 2023 20:58
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MythosDragon posted:I just think its funny that clones came before game consoles. Uh, they kinda do a lot. Like the most obvious ones are [Zero/azure]]the bells in Crossbell. The entirity of Sky 3rd, and the Sept-Terrions which can't really be brushed aside like that. Artifacts are a massive deal. Gumball Gumption posted:I honestly hand wave away the speed that technology develops since it just seems like a necessary evil for that portion of the overarching story about technological development. I mean it's very central to the worldbuilding, you can't really handwave it away besides little things like the constant orbment updates as an excuse to make you lose all your stuff between games
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Apr 12, 2023 21:23
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MythosDragon posted:Also barring the fact that the Septerrions are also artifacts, artifacts themselves kinda just dont matter to Trails. The thing Gideon used in the mayoral residence in FC, Olivert's shell, the Hermit Cube, the Salt Pale arrows, that thing you retrieve in the cold open of Sky 3rd, Gideon's demonic flute, whatever that thing you mess with in Heimdallr as a sidequest in CS3 is. Are the ones that readily come to mind. Obviously part of the thing is that the Septian Church are guarding most of them.
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Apr 12, 2023 21:31
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i mean the technology develops fast because the countries place importance on it for military purposes right?
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Apr 12, 2023 22:34
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Yinlock posted:Uh, they kinda do a lot. Like the most obvious ones are [Zero/azure]]the bells in Crossbell. The entirity of Sky 3rd, and the Sept-Terrions which can't really be brushed aside like that. Artifacts are a massive deal. It generally makes sense, it's just accelerated because real time development in stories is generally boring. GateOfD posted:i mean the technology develops fast because the countries place importance on it for military purposes right? Also this, it mirrors the real world developments with how many were military first and then became consumer products.
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Apr 12, 2023 22:37
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It's good to see that what I thought were lazy plot holes in Cold Steel were actually already covered in Azure.
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Apr 12, 2023 23:09
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Junpei posted:I mean, Orbal tech can do a lot more than our modern world's equivalents can do, cleaner as well, so it'd make sense that tech would move faster in Zemuria than it would in ours. It feels kind of sudden though. In Sky you're told that the orbal revolution happened a pretty long time ago. But the improvement in tech that occurs over the course of the games seems way larger than the difference from pre-Orbal times to the beginning of the Sky games. Yinlock posted:Uh, they kinda do a lot. Like the most obvious ones are [Zero/azure]]the bells in Crossbell. The entirity of Sky 3rd, and the Sept-Terrions which can't really be brushed aside like that. Artifacts are a massive deal. They matter a lot, but their nature and use in the plot is very different. In the post-Sky games, you see these big super important plot-relevant artifacts, often with Ouroboros plans revolving around them. Those artifacts are kind of similar to the sort of magical artifacts you might see in other RPGs. That isn't really as interesting to me as the "random weird poo poo that people find and start using (that the Church wants to confiscate for pretty legitimate reasons)" take on artifacts that you see in Sky. edit: The video chat artifact someone else mentioned is also a good example of this different approach to artifacts - why is it okay for Olivier to have that artifact? I thought the Church was pretty strict about reclaiming artifacts regardless of how they seem to be used (because no one truly understands these things and they can be really dangerous). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 23:30
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