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deep dish peat moss posted:I agree with that. The biggest road block I ran into is dialog. It's hard to make branching CRPG style dialog feel "good" to me, because ultimately the players are just choosing from multiple-choice responses. Like let's say you want to have a situation where the player, in their own mind, pieces together some clues and figures something out, let's say they recognize that this character Bob is actually evil and working for the bad guys because of subtle context clues. In a video game in order for a player to be able to interact with that idea at all, you have to do something like provide a selectable dialog option accusing Bob of being the evil guy. Maybe there are some switches and triggers that have to be in place before that dialog option appears - but that kind of sucks because the players then don't have to put the pieces together on their own, the character does and then the option appears for the player, whether they recognized it or not. Or maybe you tell the player outright that there's a traitor and they get to choose who to accuse, but then they'll be extra vigilant for the subtle clues and it essentially becomes a quest objective. You could give players a text box to input (secret) keywords in, like Wasteland 1/2 or w/e. Stringing clues together like combining multiple items in a point and click game has also been done previously multiple times. I think Discworld Noir is a good example for a game that does it without making solutions obvious. You could also make dialogue trees "loseable", to avoid brute forcing and making them less "gamey". But then you have to deal with the problem of how to branch the game from that point.
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Apr 12, 2023 00:49
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I would love to do something with an IF text parser where the player enters 100% of their character's dialog themselves, but that's currently way beyond me  That's something I'm optimistic about AI for though, it's headed in a direction that will make that possible. Something where the NPCs are actual characters with hand-written backstories and knowledge, but everything they say is generated by AI based on the character profile, and reactionary to what the player said.Edit: but I think William h hairytaint was right and that what I really want to do is run something more like a tabletop campaign, where the world reacts to the players instead of the other way around deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 00:57 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 00:51
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deep dish peat moss posted:I would love to do something with an IF text parser where the player enters 100% of their character's dialog themselves, but that's currently way beyond me Training an algorithm on different data sets for each character by feeding it public domain books. I'm thinking an open world game based on the works of Jane Austen. Wait enough years and something like that would probably exist. For now you'll have to handcraft those conversations. Either that or research chat bots and make something small with one character, I guess. Edit: I think it's good and cool you're experimenting with game making. That's already more than what 99% of people who talk about it manage to do. itry fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 01:07
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Embedding a role-playing story into GPT wouldn't be hard at all. Not sure if you could ever get responses clean enough to be useable though and the other issue is the entire game then becomes non-deterministic - if you code up a merchant that sells items, for example, how do you know when GPT has agreed to sell an item to the player?? You'd need multiple layers like, AI generated response -> response gets sent to player AND fed back into itself to determine if the answer was positive or negative -> game changes based on that result I don't even think that would be hard to code, but it would become prohibitively expensive pretty quickly
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Apr 12, 2023 03:41
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ChatGPT and an AI voice model create some interesting possibilities
tango alpha delta fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 03:51
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abigserve posted:Embedding a role-playing story into GPT wouldn't be hard at all. Not sure if you could ever get responses clean enough to be useable though and the other issue is the entire game then becomes non-deterministic - if you code up a merchant that sells items, for example, how do you know when GPT has agreed to sell an item to the player?? You'd need multiple layers like, AI generated response -> response gets sent to player AND fed back into itself to determine if the answer was positive or negative -> game changes based on that result There are some games trying it, but the main things holding it back right now are (1) the relative weakness of at-home LLM AI, (2) How long generations on consumer level hardware take and probably the biggest one (3) like you said, poor "memory" in GPT and other LLM AI - it's difficult to have it retain information long-term and it becomes increasingly expensive (in either literal money cost with GPT, or hardware computing time cost with local stuff) the longer you retain it. So it ends up being very dreamlike and fractured instead of coherent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LNzMBBSxxk It's a neat novelty but not a fun "game" yet. (The person playing in this video does not understand how to play or write the prompts until later in the video so feel free to skip to like 20minutes in when it gets good) If you like surreal absurd dreamlike ai-generated "comedy" that is comedic because of how nonsensical it is it's worth at least watching some other people play though. At 20 minutes into the video the player, accompanied by their companion "the Mario" get into a battle with bad guys named "Fatty fat guy with the mustache" and "Muscle man with the muscle" who are depicted as giant babies, and after realizing the giant babies are too strong to fight and deciding to run away, they meet a 10-foot-tall Gordon Freeman with a face covered in teeth who sends them on a mission to find Black Mesa and look for survivors. edit: Oh poo poo, the new version this week lets you connect it to chatGPT as a text generator, but it requires a $20/mo in-game subscription. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Apr 12, 2023 |
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Apr 12, 2023 04:12
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just subscribe to NovelAI or AI Dungeon at that point wtf
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Apr 12, 2023 06:46
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Don't stop there when ChatGPT can do the game design and coding for you as well!
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Apr 12, 2023 20:30
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George posted:Don't stop there when ChatGPT can do the game design and coding for you as well! Why stop there? ChatGPT could play the game for you too. “Please generate a let’s play of a game where blahblahblah”
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Apr 12, 2023 20:49
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giogadi posted:Why stop there? ChatGPT could play the game for you too. “Please generate a let’s play of a game where blahblahblah” There's probably a lot of money in churning out AI generated Dangan Rompa Lets Plays
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Apr 12, 2023 20:50
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im never ever going to finish a FromSoft game that isn't Dark Souls 1, dark souls 2 is almost 10 years old next year and i still haven't got round to it, no point really, finished the peak of the series and then got out
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Apr 12, 2023 22:29
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Dark Souls 2 was the peak of the series but yeah nothing after that has been anything but a shadow of its former self so you're not missing much
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Apr 12, 2023 22:34
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Elden Ring was actually pretty drat good the first time through but it has zero of the replayability that made ds1 and 2 so momentous
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Apr 12, 2023 22:36
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Dark Souls 2 is so bad that it actually makes me feel bad when I think back to when I played it
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Apr 12, 2023 22:37
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That's exactly how I feel about DS3 and Bloodborne. Sekiro was better than those but still pretty forgettable after one playthrough
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Apr 12, 2023 22:38
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Sometimes I think that DS3 is the moment that ruined video games for me because DS2 was such an absurdly good game that I let myself get hyped up like I've never been hyped for a videogame before and then DS3 was a supreme letdown, like a "gotcha" where they stripped out everything good out of the series and tricked fans into playing it just to be like "THAT'S SOULS, BABY!"
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Apr 12, 2023 22:41
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Elden Ring is so long and has so much reused content that if you even beat it once it counts as replaying it at least 4 times. Not saying it wasn't good, it was very good, but after beating it once I had as much playtime as all other Souls games combined. DS2 would be a good game but unfortunately it has to be judged as a soulsborne in which case it blows.
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Apr 12, 2023 22:43
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I think my favorite aspect of DS3 was how they got rid of all the garbage changes they made for DS2, other than that yeah it was pretty mediocre
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Apr 12, 2023 22:45
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Devils Affricate posted:I think my favorite aspect of DS3 was how they got rid of all the garbage changes they made for DS2, other than that yeah it was pretty mediocre Yeah, that's why it was medicore, which is also my favorite part because it was a good troll
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Apr 12, 2023 22:45
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deep dish peat moss posted:Sometimes I think that DS3 is the moment that ruined video games for me because DS2 was such an absurdly good game that I let myself get hyped up like I've never been hyped for a videogame before and then DS3 was a supreme letdown, like a "gotcha" where they stripped out everything good out of the series and tricked fans into playing it just to be like "THAT'S SOULS, BABY!" i spent a ton of time playing dark souls 2 pvp, just hanging out on the iron bridge forever but also playing around with the belfries and red invasions etc, but they made it way worse in ds3 infinite stamina to keep dodge rolling forever, plus invasions always go into a coop death squad so unless you're a minmaxed oneshot build good luck
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Apr 12, 2023 22:47
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Nice Van My Man posted:Elden Ring is so long and has so much reused content that if you even beat it once it counts as replaying it at least 4 times. Not saying it wasn't good, it was very good, but after beating it once I had as much playtime as all other Souls games combined. I have this fundamental complaint about Elden Ring, where most of its locations exist for no purpose other than to be discovered - they're not challenging or engaging gameplay that you need to battle through, they're just "oh neat, didn't see that there at first". So while replaying DS1 or 2 can be fun because you're progressing through levels, replaying Elden Ring blows because you've already explored so there's no reason to even approach like 80% of the game's content. I put 400+ hours into both DS1 and DS2 across multiple platforms and I will probably revisit them some day. I beat Elden Ring in 120 hours and never wanted to touch it again. But yeah, they were a good 120 hours.
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Apr 12, 2023 22:50
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yuuup open worlds in general are just pretty bad for replayability Elden Ring is still a great game but i have no real desire to do the 3 ng+ playthroughs for all the ending achievements like the other games in the series
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Apr 12, 2023 22:51
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I can see why it's more popular with people who aren't huge nerds like me who play a game for 400+ hours for sure
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Apr 12, 2023 22:54
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To be fair to Elden Ring, it's probably the most interesting and content-saturated open world that a game has had so far. I liked it as a change of pace, but From should probably return to their old format for the next title.
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Apr 12, 2023 22:56
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Play all games inebriated for the first time so when you replay them you don't really remember most of it
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Apr 12, 2023 22:57
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I wanted to replay Elden Ring for the DLC, but just B lining the important stuff isn't quite the same. I'm a weirdo who can't play newgame+ when it gives me items that don't make sense. How does my character have a sword forged from the soul of the very monster they're fighting huh? Yes I know this is a stupid.
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Apr 12, 2023 22:57
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Dark Souls 3 isn't as bad as I make it out to be either, I still played it for like 100 hours and beat it, but I can't remember anything from it unless I go look up screenshots of the bosses/areas. DS1 and 2 both had colorful fantastical worlds that felt alive despite a mysterious undead curse, DS3 was all brown and grey and dead. And it completely changed the entire philosophy of the series from being about slow and plodding deliberation and situational awareness, to being a faster-paced character action game to appeal to fans of character action games. It was just a case of a series that was very unique watering itself down to appeal to a larger potential market and like, I get why From did that but it pivoted the series away from its unique roots and towards a more generic 3rd person character action game thing and then they just doubled down on it as they went. I was glad that Elden Ring made shields OP again at least
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Apr 12, 2023 22:59
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Yeah when you beeline to items in DS1 it's really interesting but doing it in ER is really empty. The game was incredible the first time though.
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Apr 12, 2023 23:16
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satanic splash-back posted:Play all games inebriated for the first time so when you replay them you don't really remember most of it I thought this was my own secret technique, well now it's out there I guess.
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Apr 12, 2023 23:34
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Play games with the sound off and no subtitles. Then you can replay it with the sound on, like a delightful little DLC.
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Apr 13, 2023 03:48
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deep dish peat moss posted:Elden Ring was actually pretty drat good the first time through but it has zero of the replayability that made ds1 and 2 so momentous You don't need to replay it, its like 90 hours long, just play a different game instead when you're done Replayability is overrated, I'm not an 8 year old that gets two games a year for their birthday and christmas
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Apr 13, 2023 03:56
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All (since Demon's Souls at least) of From's aRPGs have NG+. Replayability is expected and supported.
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Apr 13, 2023 03:59
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itry posted:Play games with the sound off and no subtitles. Then you can replay it with the sound on, like a delightful little DLC. The Quiet Man literally did this
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Apr 13, 2023 04:04
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Caesar Saladin posted:You don't need to replay it, its like 90 hours long, just play a different game instead when you're done Almost every game is so bad that I can't even get an hour out of it, so when a game lasts more than an hour I want to play it as much as I can
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Apr 13, 2023 04:06
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You should check out Skyrim. People are still playing it so that's a good sign right?
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Apr 13, 2023 04:07
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Devils Affricate posted:The Quiet Man literally did this Hm, I remember this thing. IIRC they patched it in some time after release. Not as a DLC, but probably because the game was terribly received.
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Apr 13, 2023 04:08
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I think that Elden Ring has a strong case for being the best game of all time, but replayability doesn't matter to me. I care about how the game is on the first go-round, and Elden Ring is the only game to give me the feeling I got when I was 13 and open world games were a new thing. NG+ is there if you want it, but I have beaten DS 1 2 and 3 and never run through NG+. I would always rather make a new character and play again with different strategies and weapons.
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Apr 13, 2023 04:10
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That's what sucks about Elden Ring though, it's really awful to re-play as a new build - because 80% of the game's content is irrelevant to you and serves no purpose and has no reason for you to visit it, so you beeline to unlock the things for your build and then you beeline through the like 4 hours of actually required content and you're done, maybe stopping to do an npc quest along the way. I've never played NG+ in any of these games either (except for Nioh) but I played through DS1/2 as dozens of different builds each and it was fun playing through the entire game as those builds and unlocking new parts of them along the way. Elden ring is just go visit whatever dungeon has the sword you want, then do stormveil, then hogwart's, then the capital, then the fire giant and then the ending. I guess you can throw in like the big underground place too because it's a big and sometimes fun mega-dungeon but there's probably no reason to actually be there for your build so you're not getting anything out of it or progressing the game. Like, the only incentive to explore the world in the first place is that you didn't realize how pointless it was and how rarely it rewards you with anything worthwhile. Once you see the things and go "oh, neat" and realize there was no reason to do it, you're not going to do it again, you're going to stick to the ~5% of locations that actually have something interesting. And at that point the open world trappings (material gathering, travel time, etc) are more of a hinderance to fun than anything fun themselves. It was fun figuring out what was buried in each POI the first time, but unfortunately there's never anything interesting buried in the POI to make you want to re-visit it. I tried to replay it recently and I gave up after Hogwart's because I realized I was just running from Point A to Point B on my horse, bypassing every enemy and dungeon and POI going "Yeah, no reason for me to fight that/go there, I already know what's there and it's nothing" e: None of this is helped by the fact that every universally 'good' piece of loot in Elden Ring, like flask upgrades, maps, etc - the things you're excited to find - are all placed along a very linear and heavily-telegraphed path. You can essentially run in a straight line (well, follow a road) and collect the maximum number of flask charges right from the start of the game if you want (I think you literally get 13 out of 15 possible charges just from following the road to the capital and looting all the seeds that are just sitting on the road). That kind of stuff is hard to notice your first time through but it's glaringly obvious on a second playthrough. deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 13, 2023 04:13
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In Elden Ring the exploration itself was a reward.
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Apr 13, 2023 04:29
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WILDTURKEY101 posted:I think that Elden Ring has a strong case for being the best game of all time, but replayability doesn't matter to me. I care about how the game is on the first go-round, and Elden Ring is the only game to give me the feeling I got when I was 13 and open world games were a new thing. NG+ is there if you want it, but I have beaten DS 1 2 and 3 and never run through NG+. I would always rather make a new character and play again with different strategies and weapons. This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but... I don't get this "best game of all time" stuff. Best for who? What's the criteria? If somebody who likes card games asked you for a good game they could play, would you point them to Elden Ring? It's nonsensical. I have a hard time coming up with a "best game" in a specific genre, let alone in the entire history of video games. If I came to you and said "Grim Fandango is such a good game. It's at the heights of its genre.", how would saying "Well, it's no Elden Ring." be a meaningful response? Of course it isn't. It's not supposed to be and it doesn't need to be. They were designed differently, with different goals, and for different audiences. GOAT is just some Gamer poo poo that doesn't mean anything. Fake Edit: 
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Apr 13, 2023 04:29
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