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Blackmage Yapo posted:I'm Facebook friends with a dude who still posts about Guildball. Plus there’s so many great options out there! Hell, even the old GW metal models can end up being cheaper - I have a (mostly full) team of old-school metal humans still made of lead. I feel like I should grab some halflings and the Jes Goodwin ogre for completeness sake and to start painting a truly old-style team. Pay no mind to my status as one of the secondary market sculptors, because that clearly has no bearing on this opinion.
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Apr 11, 2023 14:52
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You can pick up two boxes of the Skaven Team for around $70 USD total on Ebay, which will be more than enough for a team. Alternatively, buy one box and kitbash the two additional assassins and anything else you need - you might actually get away cheaper. You don't need the Star Players or FW resin players. Also, once you buy a team, you're done. That's it. No more money needs to be spent on that team, ever.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:03
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Hedningen posted:Pay no mind to my status as one of the secondary market sculptors, because that clearly has no bearing on this opinion. Oh dope, which one? Always on the look out for good teams. berzerkmonkey posted:You can pick up two boxes of the Skaven Team for around $70 USD total on Ebay, which will be more than enough for a team. Alternatively, buy one box and kitbash the two additional assassins and anything else you need - you might actually get away cheaper. You don't need the Star Players or FW resin players. Also, once you buy a team, you're done. That's it. No more money needs to be spent on that team, ever. Two boxes of the skaven team still doesn't get me a rat ogre  . Also they've already changed team comps for two teams in 2020 and I expect more are coming, so not sure about buying a team and being done.
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Apr 11, 2023 15:26
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Blackmage Yapo posted:Oh dope, which one? Always on the look out for good teams. Releasing a metal goblin team later this year via KS, most likely. Though I’m trying to avoid doing so, kinda - still not confident in my ability to release something people want.  Inked models.  Goblins on bases.    Partially-painted troll.
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Apr 11, 2023 16:08
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Blackmage Yapo posted:I'm Facebook friends with a dude who still posts about Guildball. Guild Ball is a brilliant skirmish game that is only very, very loosely competing with Blood Bowl. Theme aside, they're basically entirely different genres.
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Apr 11, 2023 17:13
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Blackmage Yapo posted:Oh dope, which one? Always on the look out for good teams. You are correct - hadn't factored that into the build. You can get them for under $20, but that's a valid concern.
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Apr 11, 2023 18:23
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Thirsty Dog posted:Guild Ball is a brilliant skirmish game that is only very, very loosely competing with Blood Bowl. Theme aside, they're basically entirely different genres. Yeah, this, Guild Ball was not a take on Blood Bowl at all.
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Apr 11, 2023 18:25
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Southern Heel posted:Having read your summary Leperflesh, I am reminded that I actually got bought Epic 40,000 for Christmas one year so I did own it at some point - "memory unlocked, etc". I play eldar, it's a viable and fun faction in epic armageddon imo. The various craftworld lists (with the sole exception of Saim-Hann) have a Farseer unit as a required component of an Eldar Guardian Warhost and your stand would work fine for that. In the Ulthwe list, there's a Seer Council which can replace any Farseer unit for +100 points, and your stand seems ideal for that - and its Black Guardian Warhost formation has two Farseer units by default, so using your fancy one to show which is the upgraded Seer Council would work great if you feel like playing Ulthwe.
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Apr 11, 2023 18:40
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:it is GOOD to have punishment mechanics for rage quitters This isn't the problem. This problem with Blood Bowl is that the game can (and often does) get into a state where you no longer have any input on what's happening but still need to play it out because the benefits to your opponent for beating on a helpless opponent are so grossly large. In any other game, quitting at that point would just be conceding, not "rage quitting". I am glad that the joke teams are properly labeled as joke teams now though. Anyway the rest of your post is "people still play it, therefore it has no problems" and that's not really worth addressing.
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Apr 11, 2023 20:05
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I don’t know if you’ve tried it, but tournament-style blood bowl normally uses resurrection rules, where you build your team and start afresh each game, with any injuries wiped away. Whilst I do like the development side of the game, I really love the challenges presented by tournaments, where even one bad game doesn’t matter because the next one is a fresh new fight.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:39
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Like most GW games, the BB campaign rules are evocative but also... bad?
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Apr 11, 2023 22:45
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fallingdownjoe posted:I don’t know if you’ve tried it, but tournament-style blood bowl normally uses resurrection rules, where you build your team and start afresh each game, with any injuries wiped away. Whilst I do like the development side of the game, I really love the challenges presented by tournaments, where even one bad game doesn’t matter because the next one is a fresh new fight. I've played a couple tournaments at cons and such, but I've never lived anywhere running tournaments regularly. It seems interesting, and it seems like BB2020 has better support for it, although I've never tried it personally.
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Apr 11, 2023 22:47
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GW has never put out a set of campaign rules that were remotely functional without the active supervision of an experienced GM and copious houseruling. If you have both of those things then blood bowl, necromunda, mordheim etc. are worth playing but for a lot of people the juice ain’t worth the squeeze
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Apr 12, 2023 01:42
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Blackmage Yapo posted:I'm Facebook friends with a dude who still posts about Guildball. I'm guessing you're not calculating in USD? A team is $50, so if you're planning on getting two to get the full 4 Gutter Runners that's only $100, or if you go the FW booster it's $91. It's rare you'd want to run a full 16 anyway, so just getting 2 gutter runners as singles, kitbashing, or third party is enough. edit: forgot about the Rat Ogre, that's where the extra cost in your calculation is coming from. That's a trap player anyway. fallingdownjoe posted:I don’t know if you’ve tried it, but tournament-style blood bowl normally uses resurrection rules, where you build your team and start afresh each game, with any injuries wiped away. Whilst I do like the development side of the game, I really love the challenges presented by tournaments, where even one bad game doesn’t matter because the next one is a fresh new fight. I'm looking down the barrel of this in my current league at my LGS. Last game before playoffs is an absolutely stacked Lizardmen team and I'm playing Amazons. My plan going in is just to stem the bleeding since I'm in the playoffs even if I lose. I'll probably just foul with my positionals with the hope of them getting ejected, and therefore out of reach of the 3 block/frenzy and 3 block/tackle Saurus and the Krox with block.
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Apr 12, 2023 08:40
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:GW has never put out a set of campaign rules that were remotely functional without the active supervision of an experienced GM and copious houseruling. If you have both of those things then blood bowl, necromunda, mordheim etc. are worth playing but for a lot of people the juice ain’t worth the squeeze A friend and I ran a huge Necromunda campaign about a decade or more back. Tons of fun, but needed a lot of behind the scenes work to make it run well. It all fell apart when we let some random folks join, and they turned out to be those horrible repulsive type of nerd that rule's lawyer everything and make incredibly distasteful edgy jokes. THe campaign ended shortly after they joined. Our big takeaway is that you should always run these big undertakings with people you want to hang out with, the point is to have fun with friends, not have fun with the game. The juice is worth it if you have good cooperative people to play with, and the extra work is rewarding. If you just gather a hodgepodge of people together just so you can have a big campaign it won't be worth the effort. It was a huge undertaking and the second we weren't having fun we ended it because we were dedicating hours to it a week.
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Apr 12, 2023 21:39
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yeah, I have a fully painted old metal Cawdor gang from when I was in college but I have a job and a kid now and I’m just not able to put in the work to make necromunda fun
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Apr 12, 2023 21:53
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:yeah, I have a fully painted old metal Cawdor gang from when I was in college but I have a job and a kid now and I’m just not able to put in the work to make necromunda fun Yeah I feel this, I too rarely have multiple 4-5 hours blocks of time in my week to devote to wargaming. Running that campaign we all did a game a week, with myself or my friend observing every game we weren't playing in, plus we'd meet up for hours separate from the games to do all the background and match-making. I was probably putting 10 hours into it a week between my game, the games I observed, and the back end. We even made a monthly in-setting newsletter. A ton of fun until it wasn't, but also essentially a part-time job. I could never dedicate that much time to a game anymore.
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Apr 12, 2023 22:19
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I started Necromunda like 8 months ago, and got a campaign up and running despite never even playing before. Our group is just wrapping up our second one, which I also ran, and we should be starting our third in a few weeks. I am really, really, really looking forward to this next one. Because someone else is running it and I may actually get to enjoy the experience!
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Apr 13, 2023 03:00
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If you have a good group I'd recommend having two game masters, let each play, and do any back-end stuff as open-book as possible so everything stays above board. Obviously each game master can never rule on their own games, if they play each other someone else must be there to help with any disputes. This system works quite well with a good group that isn't super competitive and wants to have a fun campaign. This system totally falls apart with people that want to win at all costs. I enjoy running a campaign, but it is always more engaging to play the game. That said, I'm not sure how the newcromunda campaigns work, this might not be possible with the new rules. Virtual Russian fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 13, 2023 03:46
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Virtual Russian posted:If you have a good group I'd recommend having two game masters, let each play, and do any back-end stuff as open-book as possible so everything stays above board. Obviously each game master can never rule on their own games, if they play each other someone else must be there to help with any disputes. This system works quite well with a good group that isn't super competitive and wants to have a fun campaign. This system totally falls apart with people that want to win at all costs. It also falls apart when the thing someone does that they think is cool turns out to be the OP choice, or when someone falls far behind because the thing they think is cool is a trap option. Then you're relying on your GMs to rewrite the game on the fly, or peer pressure to push the player off of the problematic choices, and both can easily lead to bad blood.
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Apr 13, 2023 04:02
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Yeah for sure, which is why I really screen people I play with now, I'd rather play fewer, far more fun games than lots of competitive games with randos. If I recall our Cawdor gang had to be shored up at one point because they lost a couple guys to some very bad wound rolls. Everyone was fine with it, we were mostly all good friends. And then we let some other people that heard about our campaign join. This one dude shows up giving insanely bad vibes and insists everyone call him "Grimey." He's a living legend in our little circle of friends to this day. He once tried to disqualify an opponent mid-game by saying that the other guy didn't use enough colors on his gang, plus that he didn't us GW glue on this models. He brought a friend along that was making terrible holocaust jokes. This was all in our super friendly, zero stakes, non-competitive games. The campaign was quickly ended. For years after I'd check if he was attending events and decide to go based on if he would be there or not. He would just ruin the vibe of any room he entered.
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Apr 13, 2023 04:16
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My usual opponent wants to play Grimdark Future / Firefight which I appreciate is a more sensible choice than what I'm about to go into, but I'm lukewarm over it at best. While I was digging around for figures I realised I had more RT and 2nd Edition space marines than I thought, more than enough to play either game. Almost all of my wargaming since I came back to the hobby has been using 2mm figures and 'grand scale' battles: roughly a thousand figures on the table representing about five thousand in real life, on battlefield about half a mile square. Going back to 'Gobsnik Arsebagger and his seven gretchin boyz shoot their autoguns with BS2 (minus 1 for long range) at the Eldar Fire Dragon Exarch' is such a shift in mindset and scale. While listening to the Crown of Command Podcast I came across the 2nd Edition Battle Bible - does 40k 2nd Ed. count as a specialist game at this point? - which has enough baked-in nostalgia for me to enjoy as a large skirmish game. If anyone else is interested, the Battle Bible consists of all the material, expansions and errata for 40k 2nd ed. reformatted and compiled: https://archive.org/details/w-40-k-2nd-ed-battle-bible-1.7.2 Using the army list there it seems my models roughly equate to a 1250pt force:
Unfortunately I don't think my opponent wants to play 40kV2 at all, and I don't have the time or motivation to collect and paint a second army for solo gaming at the moment - unless someone can point me to some affordable RT-style Space Ork models. I think the plan of action is to just sit on my hands and use my marines for GF/GF:F with my opponent, and otherwise if I feel the sci-fi itch to focus on Epic (after playing that introductory scenario!) Southern Heel fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Apr 13, 2023 |
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Apr 13, 2023 13:45
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I guess we dont really talk about the rumors much here but there have been rumors about the new version of epic. Namely that it's 30k and can be safely ignored. Oh well. Old World 2023 tho
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Apr 14, 2023 05:07
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Gosh you weren't kidding about NetEpic Gold being a bit of a headache, were you? For the sake of a thought exercise I went through and tried to put together a cheap-to-purchase lists for NetEpic:Armageddon and I have found the floor is about £50 for 1000pts - Goff orks with scorchas, stompas and gunwagons, or Iyanden Eldar with Wraithlords/guard, jetbikes and a Storm serpent. I know in the GW-sphere two £50 armies are considered a 'cheap buy in', but I'm not sure I can justify it particularly if both armies are one-trick ponies and I'll only be playing against myself. Oh well!
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Apr 14, 2023 08:55
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both versions of netepic are only reasonable for people who own an existing collection or a 3d printer tbh
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Apr 14, 2023 09:11
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Cease to Hope posted:both versions of netepic are only reasonable for people who own an existing collection or a 3d printer tbh I don't really follow, what about net epic makes it too expensive? I've found it cheaper than 40k unless you're going to start building 20k points armies. You're generally fielding about 10 -12 formations, with some being just a handful of stands, or a single small model. They aren't free, but unless you are buying vintage blisters on Ebay you won't be paying close to what you would to buy into 40k. I say this with less than 5% of my collection being 3D printed, none printed by me. I mostly buy from the popular proxy manufacturers. Southern Heel posted:Gosh you weren't kidding about NetEpic Gold being a bit of a headache, were you? For the sake of a thought exercise I went through and tried to put together a cheap-to-purchase lists for NetEpic:Armageddon and I have found the floor is about £50 for 1000pts - Goff orks with scorchas, stompas and gunwagons, or Iyanden Eldar with Wraithlords/guard, jetbikes and a Storm serpent. I know in the GW-sphere two £50 armies are considered a 'cheap buy in', but I'm not sure I can justify it particularly if both armies are one-trick ponies and I'll only be playing against myself. Oh well! Try out some games with paper proxies. If you want to give the game an honest try I'd approach it as a game first, a financial exercise second. If you love the game you'll make it happen, if not, why even stress about the money. If you just approach it as an exercise in buying the cheapest possible armies I'd say you won't have fun. Also neither Orks nor Eldar are one trick ponies. Orks can do anything, they are one of the most flexible army lists in the game, whatever you want them to do (beside shot accurately) they can do. Eldar will always be hit and run to some extent, but they are pretty flexible as well. The different craftworlds all play very differently.
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Apr 14, 2023 09:54
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Virtual Russian posted:They aren't free, but unless you are buying vintage blisters on Ebay you won't be paying close to what you would to buy into 40k. i don't consider 40K reasonable at all a small collection of epic miniatures is going to be a one-trick regardless of what faction it is unfortunately. it's not a game that lends itself to breaking down more than one way at low-mid points levels
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Apr 14, 2023 10:06
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My problem with NetEA is that it very much benefits from the old 6x4 table and takes a lot of time to play. Minigeddon was a good start but the game doesn't quite work at small scale IMO; I'd love that idea to be taken further and be properly designed for 3x3 or smaller. I really appreciate games that can work on that scale and don't take forever while still being mechanically interesting. Bushido, Guild Ball, etc.
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Apr 14, 2023 10:44
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I can put together 3k of marines for just less than 100 on Vanguard doing some fast back of the napkin math. That is with all those rhinos, some raiders, and just a bit of variety in troop choices plus a character pack. No aircraft tho, so no dual thunderhawks redeploying the Terms. A pair of hunters will have to suffice for aircover to keep costs down. That isn't too bad as an exercise in frugality, I'd be curious what 2k of marines would cost in 40k, or whatever the standard full sized game is?quote:Cheap Marines, 3000 POINTS 91 pounds for that army from vanguard. It isn't the most exciting, but it would work, and would make a stellar base to expand onto. Adding some aircraft or a titan down the road will cost, but another 50 a year after this purchase would be very manageable. I can also field this from my collection and will give it a try. I'd expect most armies to be around this price point to get started, definitely bare bones though. Orks and Guard are going to be a bit more expensive because of just how many infantry stands and vehicles are usually required. I built my Vostroyans out of converted Napoleonics, that was a very very cheap army. It has gotten pricier as I've added more and more armour though. At the end of the day any hobby is going to cost you. I used to oil paint a ton, go to an art store and price out those paints (not student grade), brushes, and canvas or boards. Before that I played paintball, that was way worse, I could really only afford that when I was in HS and had a part-time job. My partner has yarn hidden under everything, everything. That stuff isn't cheap either. Suddenly wargaming doesn't seem so outlandish. Any indoor hobby, and most of the outdoor ones, are going to cost you. If it is fun and you like it, then it will be worth it. If you don't like it then that is fine, just don't like it. I don't think cost, especially when it isn't abnormal, is a valid criticism. Cease to Hope posted:i don't consider 40K reasonable at all Ok sure, if you restrict yourself to only 1k points of an army, with no other options then it will always be a one trick pony. That would be true of anything anyone gets the bare minimum of. However, I play a ton of minigeddon, I've already had 4 games this month. The idea that minigeddon doesn't have tons of options, and tons of tactical flexibility for every faction is just false. The games merely plays faster, nothing is simplified, nothing feels wrong or restrictive. The majority of my collection is purely for minigeddon. I keep to ~1500 pts for most of my armies. Always a few good core formation choices and then a few more cheaper support formations to give some choices.
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Apr 14, 2023 10:50
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Got myself a set of DireChasm for underworlds for 45$ - might get back to playing it. Anyone played recent seasons?
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Apr 14, 2023 10:54
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Thirsty Dog posted:My problem with NetEA is that it very much benefits from the old 6x4 table and takes a lot of time to play. Minigeddon was a good start but the game doesn't quite work at small scale IMO; I'd love that idea to be taken further and be properly designed for 3x3 or smaller. I definitely agree that NetEA's biggest flaw is the 6x4 table. It is why I play so much minigeddon. The full game really does require the full table, and it is all that room to maneuver that really does help make the game so engaging. I have a pair of folding tables that fit under the couch, that works well for me.
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Apr 14, 2023 10:55
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:
Really, it's the most dadcore of all tabletop. Fundamentally BB is very different from the other GW properties and as noted, many people don't realize it. Every season we get some new people in but every now and then there's a serious try-hard type joining and it becomes really obvious that this just isn't for them. And that's ok. The game isn't about whittling down wounds. The game has a big risk management aspect with just enough variance to allow upsets just like... the real world. Good play still gives you a good record over time, we know who our strong coaches are. Plus it's a single rulebook so the scope of the rules you need to know is quite tight. When do you push your luck? What happens if things don't go your way? What moves happened so that you're all of a sudden relying on a single dice roll? Anyway I love Blood Bowl so just wanted to give this a shoutout. World cup this year has like 1,500 coaches I think registered?
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Apr 14, 2023 12:26
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Virtual Russian posted:I definitely agree that NetEA's biggest flaw is the 6x4 table. It is why I play so much minigeddon. The full game really does require the full table, and it is all that room to maneuver that really does help make the game so engaging. I have a pair of folding tables that fit under the couch, that works well for me. Ah last I checked minigeddon still wanted the board to be 4ft in one dimension but I'm in the "London flat" genre of gamers so might be overestimating how much that matters to everyone else.
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Apr 14, 2023 13:21
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Woodstock posted:Really, it's the most dadcore of all tabletop. Some youtuber once said there was nothing better than a blood bowl league and they are 100% correct. It's the best experience I have ever had board gaming. It's a game of pain and failure and enjoyment and sacrifice and success. You are constantly having to deal with bullshit you never would in any other game in existence and the fact that people are like "THERE arE SeRiouS ISSUeS WIth itS gAme DESign" like sure, if you don't like a game where you have to deal with multiple setbacks, have several plans in place, wheels within wheels, then its not a good game, but there's nothing inherent about its design that sets it back. I frequently teach blood bowl to people in a single 40 minute game and most of them have gone on to play a lot of Bloodbowl, usually get a few teams, it's great. Just from a lore standpoint, it's nice to see a games workshop property that hasn't really lost its aesthetic from the era when games workshop lore writers were allowed to have fun instead of taking the toy soldiers storybooks seriously. TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 14:19
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I'm not sure that "push your luck" and "lots of variance" are particularly underrepresented in games, or that wild swings in outcomes based on high variance dice rolls are also some kind of design magic that people just don't understand, man I also think that the idea that the rules are tight because it has a single rulebook is... strange? What's the frame of reference here, just GW products? A single rulebook is the standard in the industry, and it rarely says anything about the quality of the ruleset. Everyone is aware that BB is a game about risk management and that part of that is the understanding that the risk:reward ratio can get you blown to smithereens regardless of your best efforts. The point is that suffering the consequences of a simple failure leading to a failure cascade and essentially torpedoing not just the match but your tearm's immediate future (where it's often best to just start again from scratch) is not the pinnacle of gaming and nor is it some out-there opinion to suggest that a game so randomly punishing is maybe not all that fun for a lot of people and perhaps actually a flaw that some people are happy to play along with. Blood Bowl has a lot going for it but wild-eyed crazy talk about how it's the perfect game with no flaws really doesn't convince anyone, it just sounds weird. I love the fact that people adore it. I used to really enjoy it when I was a kid! But exposure to a lot of board and minis games has changed my opinion over time, and the last time I played BB I killed a newbie's Kroxigor on the first turn thanks to outrageous luck and totally hosed them over for a) the next hour or so and b) their next matches and that just wasn't fun for either of us at that stage in our gaming lives. Other games do manage to have big "cinematic" moments and unexpected swings of fortune without this punishing aspect to it. The last thing I want to do is stomp on anyone's enthusiasm for their chosen hobby but gosh it's weird seeing people go "NO, WRONG, IT IS THE BEST EVER" when BB gets discussed
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Apr 14, 2023 14:50
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Thirsty Dog posted:The last thing I want to do is stomp on anyone's enthusiasm for their chosen hobby but gosh it's weird seeing people go "NO, WRONG, IT IS THE BEST EVER" when BB gets discussed Noted. But it's still the best thing GW has ever put out, aside from Mordheim and Warmaster. 
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Apr 14, 2023 14:53
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I dont know what to tell you man BB is just the best
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Apr 14, 2023 15:02
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IMO, Blood Bowl is bad, Mordheim is bad, and Necromunda is bad. They're all bad games, but they all have the benefit of having a really good narrative side, especially in a campaign, that make them amazingly fun (assuming your dice don't kick you in the junk) and that helps our monkey brain make the switch from "these are bad mechanics" to "DID YOU SEE THAT GUY CATCH FIRE AND FALL OFF AND loving EXPLODE?!" It's the story made by the games that make them "good" games; otherwise they're really not good games. I love all of them, but I can appreciate that none of them have particularly good gameplay. Mordheim has a scenario (Defend the Find) where you win just by having a larger warband. BB has teams that simply cannot win depending on the matchup, nevermind having a bad dice day. Warmaster is probably the most polished game GW have done, but it was approached as a historical-adjacent game with a full range of balanced armies from the start. Epic has tight rules, but a lot of that's been the result of the playerbase doing a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of tweaking rules and creating lists. GW built a solid foundation for E:A, but it definitely wouldn't be where it is now without player intervention.
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Apr 14, 2023 15:42
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Here’s my thoughts on the matter, as someone who does most of her gaming and hobby stuff on and around Blood Bowl: part of the reason it works and leads to evangelization after good league play is because it requires getting a critical mass of buy-in and people willing to regularly play it. Blood Bowl, when everyone has matched expectations and is on the same page with a league/tournament/etc is fun because you need a solid group for it, not from the tightness of the ruleset or the balance. If you don’t have that social element or don’t have a commissioner able to manage personality issues or step in when problems start, then leagues will fall apart or be lovely. It’s not great design - and honestly is kinda unintentional - but it’s good when it works.
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Apr 14, 2023 16:03
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Hedningen posted:Here’s my thoughts on the matter, as someone who does most of her gaming and hobby stuff on and around Blood Bowl: part of the reason it works and leads to evangelization after good league play is because it requires getting a critical mass of buy-in and people willing to regularly play it. As opposed to other, more modern board games where a lovely group will not affect your experience at all? Huh? Is Adeptus Titanicus still a good game if your oppenent calls you a slur and spits in your face? What do you mean??? I think Blood Bowl's mechanics are good enough on their own. Like I literally play non-campaign games of blood bowl all the time. I get shitslapped and I stomp. It's a good game. I actively play blood bowl with randos on FUMBBL a few times a week with no campaign mechanics for shits and giggles. TheDiceMustRoll fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Apr 14, 2023 |
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Apr 14, 2023 16:53
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