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EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


Y'all I had a real off night tonight and feel like poo poo for it. BJJ is cool and good, but tonight, I am neither. :mad:

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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


It's possible to condition a little bit with a wood dowel or glass bottle. I just casually rubbed and tapped a wine bottle up and down my shins just hard enough to create a bit of sensation and mild soreness while watching tv a few times and it went a long way toward conditioning. Honestly though it's not even worth that little bit of effort. Just train and it will come.

Morter
Jul 1, 2006

:ninja:
Gift for the grind, criminal mind shifty

Swift with the 9 through a 59FIFTY

CommonShore posted:

It's possible to condition a little bit with a wood dowel or glass bottle. I just casually rubbed and tapped a wine bottle up and down my shins just hard enough to create a bit of sensation and mild soreness while watching tv a few times and it went a long way toward conditioning. Honestly though it's not even worth that little bit of effort. Just train and it will come.

This sounds like what I need to do. I say this because the direct contact/conditioning in class is infrequent for now, so I at least want to keep up some sort of routine for daily incremental strengthening, even if it's not much.

I appreciate it. :)

ImplicitAssembler
Jan 24, 2013

Yeah, now that I only get to practice kendo once a month or so, my forearm is usually one big bruise afterwards, from stuff I wouldn't have noticed when I was practicing regularly.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

drat, I felt that quite a bit.

Mekchu
Apr 10, 2012

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
lol

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

Lol

Morter
Jul 1, 2006

:ninja:
Gift for the grind, criminal mind shifty

Swift with the 9 through a 59FIFTY
Speaking of tests...I got my yellow-white belt in Wing Chun today! I tested on Friday, and in class today, it was presented to me (and two others who went from yellow-white to yellow). I've never gotten a physical-related accolade ever in my life, so this is really nice, and I'm glad the hard work being put in is recognized, not just by being awarded the belt, but everyone in class who gave me lots of nice encouragement.

Part of me being there has to do with me checking in here, and the encouragement I got to continue, so thank you all. :buddy:

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010

I don't know if this is offtopic, and I apologize in advance if it is, but I saw this thread and it reminded me of something.

Do y'all have any good recommendation for youtube videos/channels on the topic of exposing Bullshido/MacDojo type of stuff? Fake martial arts.
The reason why I'm asking instead of just typing it into youtube is because I much prefer informational type of content rather than simply a collection of clips or people just pogging, and most of the content on youtube tends to be the latter.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
There's a guy who reviews lower tier (like amateur / semi-organized) fight videos with a focus on Chinese martial arts.
And because bullshido is prevalent there, he also covers a lot of fights where some bullshido master is exposed.

Tbh, it's not that interesting, cuz what is there to say besides,
"ok, the taichi master doesn't know how to do any conventional blocks, so he's getting hit in the face a lot with straight punches.
He got knocked down. oh, he's bleeding from the nose now.
And they stopped it. What was he expecting accepting a real fight?"

he has a ton of videos, but here's one of the format he uses for fakes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H12SzRleuw

EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


McDojo Life is pretty fantastic.

Gaz2k21
Sep 1, 2006

MEGALA---WHO??!!??
Greetings thread, I haven’t really piped up in a few years as my time on the Mats has fallen by the wayside due to me concentrating more on pro wrestling (I’ve started a new tag team that’s getting over locally quite nicely and I’m not getting any younger do I want to do a run for a few years then move to a non-wrestling role) I still do a bit of BJJ and Muay Thai when I can…

However my reason for posting isn’t this, instead I came to ask about (and I know self defence is something that comes up here a lot) if anyone has come across Tony Blauers SPEAR system? I’m going to be coaching it as it’s part of my job and whilst I like the concept of it (an extension of natural flinch reaction) I’m not sure I’m convinced of it’s effectiveness

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Gaz2k21 posted:

However my reason for posting isn’t this, instead I came to ask about (and I know self defence is something that comes up here a lot) if anyone has come across Tony Blauers SPEAR system? I’m going to be coaching it as it’s part of my job and whilst I like the concept of it (an extension of natural flinch reaction) I’m not sure I’m convinced of it’s effectiveness

I think this one got slagged by the Bullshido forums back in the day, and it didn’t look that promising from this instructional

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B007XU51LS/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...

Gaz2k21 posted:

Greetings thread, I haven’t really piped up in a few years as my time on the Mats has fallen by the wayside due to me concentrating more on pro wrestling (I’ve started a new tag team that’s getting over locally quite nicely and I’m not getting any younger do I want to do a run for a few years then move to a non-wrestling role) I still do a bit of BJJ and Muay Thai when I can…

However my reason for posting isn’t this, instead I came to ask about (and I know self defence is something that comes up here a lot) if anyone has come across Tony Blauers SPEAR system? I’m going to be coaching it as it’s part of my job and whilst I like the concept of it (an extension of natural flinch reaction) I’m not sure I’m convinced of it’s effectiveness

The "effective" martial arts are the ones that people do as a sport, period, full stop, because the only way to become effective is to have some framework for training with full-contact sparring. And then competition becomes the crucible that filters out the bullshit.

anyway from a cursory google search the thing you mentioned looks terrible

Gaz2k21
Sep 1, 2006

MEGALA---WHO??!!??

Mechafunkzilla posted:

The "effective" martial arts are the ones that people do as a sport, period, full stop, because the only way to become effective is to have some framework for training with full-contact sparring. And then competition becomes the crucible that filters out the bullshit.

anyway from a cursory google search the thing you mentioned looks terrible

That's the thing though, its not a full martial arts system its a transitional technique that is meant to be an extension of a natural flinch reaction to an attack, then you go into your jiu jitsu/kickboxing etc

yes full combat training and sparring is great but it also comes with consent and that's the big difference between sport fighting and self defence.


Like a said I'm not fully sold on the technique, i do like the outside 90 position as a way to create strength and have effectively used it during grappling rounds I'm just curious as I'm going to be instructing these techniques to my work colleagues and hve been unsuccessful in finding any live usage of it

CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man


Gaz2k21 posted:

That's the thing though, its not a full martial arts system its a transitional technique that is meant to be an extension of a natural flinch reaction to an attack, then you go into your jiu jitsu/kickboxing etc

yes full combat training and sparring is great but it also comes with consent and that's the big difference between sport fighting and self defence.


Like a said I'm not fully sold on the technique, i do like the outside 90 position as a way to create strength and have effectively used it during grappling rounds I'm just curious as I'm going to be instructing these techniques to my work colleagues and hve been unsuccessful in finding any live usage of it

So it's a feint.

Seriously, it's irresponsible to present an incomplete fighting system to untrained people as self-defense, or even as a component of self-defense. It's like telling someone that wearing a jean jacket is a substitute for having a helmet when they're on a motorcycle: it gives a false sense of security and then causes death in the moment of truth.

Gaz2k21
Sep 1, 2006

MEGALA---WHO??!!??

CommonShore posted:

So it's a feint.

Seriously, it's irresponsible to present an incomplete fighting system to untrained people as self-defense, or even as a component of self-defense. It's like telling someone that wearing a jean jacket is a substitute for having a helmet when they're on a motorcycle: it gives a false sense of security and then causes death in the moment of truth.

It’s not a feint, it’s a flinch, a feint is still a technique that requires the knowledge that an attack is imminent, the spear technique is based on the instinctual reaction to cover up in response to in unprovoked attack and is meant to be taught alongside another combat system such as jiu jitsu or kickboxing or some other form of personal protection.

It’s something that isn’t generally covered in most martial arts which are generally geared more towards sports fighting or a toe to toe scenario, spear is aimed more at a sucker punch scenario.

Again I’m not trying to champion it as I’ve done the training and don’t necessarily perceive it to be that effective…..however I like the idea of training for that unprovoked attack to build on a natural reaction.

I

the JJ
Mar 31, 2011

Gaz2k21 posted:

It’s not a feint, it’s a flinch, a feint is still a technique that requires the knowledge that an attack is imminent, the spear technique is based on the instinctual reaction to cover up in response to in unprovoked attack and is meant to be taught alongside another combat system such as jiu jitsu or kickboxing or some other form of personal protection.

It’s something that isn’t generally covered in most martial arts which are generally geared more towards sports fighting or a toe to toe scenario, spear is aimed more at a sucker punch scenario.

Again I’m not trying to champion it as I’ve done the training and don’t necessarily perceive it to be that effective…..however I like the idea of training for that unprovoked attack to build on a natural reaction.

I

I'm not sure how productive training for this is supposed to work unless your trainer is just following you around in a big padded suit and jumping you from around corners.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Gaz2k21 posted:

that's the big difference between sport fighting and self defence.

the JJ posted:

I'm not sure how productive training for this is supposed to work unless your trainer is just following you around in a big padded suit and jumping you from around corners.

I think this is the biggest problem. If you're training your technique in a brightly lit setting against one cooperative partner, your technique will be most effective in settings close to that.
Also, I think there's a lot of different flinch responses. Most I can think of are not huge body movements, and seem like it would take a lot of effort to build into something else.

Moreover, martial arts work because they are (or should be) a complete system for the ruleset under which they're contested/competed.
Trying to take a small fraction of that system to be the entry point into the much more difficult to structure domain of "self defense" seems backwards to me.
There's so many more variables at play. I don't know if I'd recommend anyone taking a class that touts itself as self defense, but I also wouldn't call it fearmongering when those classes address a lot of knife and gun scenarios.

If someone bigger and stronger attacks you on the street, you might get really hurt or die before they gas out or get chased off.
If the same person has a weapon, they'll most probably kill you if they intend to. Obviously, in the US (and other places), running into someone with a gun is an extremely real threat, and not one that is well addressed by the first line of marketing I'm getting about SPEAR. The amount of pictures featuring two dudes both wearing camo pants says a lot towards who they're marketing towards.

Mechafunkzilla
Sep 11, 2006

If you want a vision of the future...
The defense against a sucker punch is not letting someone get close enough to sucker punch you by moving your feet, not training yourself into having ninja reactions

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"
https://twitter.com/ufc/status/1509905571322900487?t=pFcV4nm9iIHOZybJcekLVQ&s=19

Professional fighters getting surprised. Seem pretty on point

Nestharken
Mar 23, 2006

The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.

Gaz2k21 posted:

Greetings thread, I haven’t really piped up in a few years as my time on the Mats has fallen by the wayside due to me concentrating more on pro wrestling (I’ve started a new tag team that’s getting over locally quite nicely and I’m not getting any younger do I want to do a run for a few years then move to a non-wrestling role) I still do a bit of BJJ and Muay Thai when I can…

However my reason for posting isn’t this, instead I came to ask about (and I know self defence is something that comes up here a lot) if anyone has come across Tony Blauers SPEAR system? I’m going to be coaching it as it’s part of my job and whilst I like the concept of it (an extension of natural flinch reaction) I’m not sure I’m convinced of it’s effectiveness

Looking into it, it sounds like Blauer might be a bit of a crazy person and likes to use a lot of technical-sounding words to make himself sound smarter. He seems to show the technique of "weaponizing the flinch" with his arms starting from a low position, which is... less than ideal for blocking a punch that you're being surprised by. If someone manages to beat your situational awareness AND threat assessment AND de-escalation AND distance management skills enough to catch you truly flat-footed with a sucker punch, as Kurt Osiander would say, you hosed up a long time ago. If I had to teach a bunch of untrained people how to defend themselves from a sucker punch in the span of an hour, it would be the Thinking Man pose to putting on the helmet to crashing in for a clinch, as seen here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2VE7sl2e2s

Kesting does show something a little similar to the "weaponized flinch" briefly at 4:00 as a possible option, but it still presumes you have your arms up to begin with, and I think the helmet is far more foolproof for people who aren't trained strikers.

Jack B Nimble
Dec 25, 2007


Soiled Meat
Here's some good self defense stuff, martial artists that have been exploring self defense for years get involved in a reality tv type show:

https://youtu.be/YJLSYVUBtdE

Spoiler for how this goes
they all die

EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


Got my first stripe on my white belt last night! Totally unexpected but man that is a GREAT feeling. Immediately tapped out to a million collar chokes. Not a great feeling.

Morter
Jul 1, 2006

:ninja:
Gift for the grind, criminal mind shifty

Swift with the 9 through a 59FIFTY
Grats!

I had to do a conditioning drill with Sifu last night, as the odd-man-out while the rest of the class paired up, so I really couldn't take it easy. Holy poo poo, I'm wrecked. But getting praised by a grandmaster is nice. :kiddo:

EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


Morter posted:

Grats!

I had to do a conditioning drill with Sifu last night, as the odd-man-out while the rest of the class paired up, so I really couldn't take it easy. Holy poo poo, I'm wrecked. But getting praised by a grandmaster is nice. :kiddo:

Rad! What's your style; Wing Chun?

Morter
Jul 1, 2006

:ninja:
Gift for the grind, criminal mind shifty

Swift with the 9 through a 59FIFTY

EdsTeioh posted:

Rad! What's your style; Wing Chun?

Correct, I am studying the art of Wing Chun! The straight punch of that practice seems simple but doing ~300 those in a couple of minutes will murder you if you're unprepared. I wasn't prepared.

EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


Morter posted:

Correct, I am studying the art of Wing Chun! The straight punch of that practice seems simple but doing ~300 those in a couple of minutes will murder you if you're unprepared. I wasn't prepared.

Oh, I'm sure! We used to run crazy punch races in TKD and I swear that was THE most exhausting thing.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Morter posted:

I wasn't prepared.

Is your forearm bruising doing better?

Morter
Jul 1, 2006

:ninja:
Gift for the grind, criminal mind shifty

Swift with the 9 through a 59FIFTY

kimbo305 posted:

Is your forearm bruising doing better?

I am conditioning but every strike still is a day of more bruises! I'm dealing.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

Bruises show you're working. Going to the dr and taking your shirt off having him go :eyepop: is still kinda fun in a twisted way lol

EdsTeioh posted:

Got my first stripe on my white belt last night! Totally unexpected but man that is a GREAT feeling. Immediately tapped out to a million collar chokes. Not a great feeling.

Morter posted:

Speaking of tests...I got my yellow-white belt in Wing Chun today! I tested on Friday, and in class today, it was presented to me (and two others who went from yellow-white to yellow). I've never gotten a physical-related accolade ever in my life, so this is really nice, and I'm glad the hard work being put in is recognized, not just by being awarded the belt, but everyone in class who gave me lots of nice encouragement.

Part of me being there has to do with me checking in here, and the encouragement I got to continue, so thank you all. :buddy:
Been gone for the last 2+ weeks and just catching up. That's awesome guys.

Showing improvement and being recognized for it is great, I don't care how old/experienced you are. I was training with one of my masters a couple months ago (the senior one, a legit 9th Grand Master, man is amazing for his age) and doing some high section axe kicks and he said "You know, the slidebite I knew 5 years ago wouldn't have been able to do those kicks, probably 2 years ago even. Look how far you've come." Feels good. If it doesn't, there's something wrong as improvement is literally the only reason most of us want to train.

EdsTeioh
Oct 23, 2004

PRAY FOR DEATH


Hell yeah man; that's rad!

Morter
Jul 1, 2006

:ninja:
Gift for the grind, criminal mind shifty

Swift with the 9 through a 59FIFTY
Nice to be told you're kicking axe rear end :hfive:

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

God drat

Not training for 3 weeks (on a transatlantic cruise) really, really made it rough.

Went Monday PM and it was tough. I actually had to pull myself from sparring the last 5 minutes because my cardio was just not there. Now, 2 days later my body is still sore.

Lesson learned: Don't eat like a total pig and be a sloth for 3 weeks and expect to go full hog.

Or, at least if you're my age. :corsair:

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Some people I peripherally know in the Boston martial arts scene brought back a lot of gold medals in Chinese shuaijiao for their team, so I've been poking around more looking at the art.

A shuaijiao jacket is short sleeve and is pretty open compared to a gi:

The lack of long sleeves introduces a mix of no-gi arm techniques as well as very pummely/punchy attacks to secure the lapels and sleeve ends.
You can't grab the pants, but you can attack the legs with your hands/arms.

The old scoring system was simply whoever got thrown first. Then first to 2 throws.
Now there's 2 rounds and tiered scoring:
1 point: opponent falls by themselves; they are thrown to one hand or one knee or one elbow; you land on top of them
2 points: opponent thrown to 2 hands/knees/elbows, side or back while you remain standing
3 points: high amplitude throw with opponent being turned 180deg, equivalent to an ippon in judo


With that as some context, here's an interesting cross sport/cross uniform match, scored on shuaijiao rules.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lxZe8rYXQ
Wearing long sleeves seem like a disadvantage under these rules. I suppose in a small number of scenarios, they could help you get a bit more grip around someone's arm.
You wear shoes in shuaijiao but I'm guessing those were left off to equalize a bit.

This comment is pretty insightful to the clash of rulesets:

quote:

The rules between Shuai Jiao and judo are very different.
In US Shuai Jiao, the Shuai Jiao person would have easily won. He would have gotten 1 point each for his first two attacks (defender is forced to make two points of contact with the ground but the attacker does not remain standing), his opponent would have been penalized for the sacrifice throw (illegal in Shuai Jiao), and his opponent would have gotten 1 point for the final throw. So 3-1.

In judo, the judo person would have easily won. The first two Shuai Jiao techniques would not score at all in judo (needs to land the opponent on his side or back). The sacrifice throw would have probably scored waza-ari (he kicked the guy in the balls but it's not illegal as long as it's not intentional). For the final throw, that would be ippon (ie, automatic victory that ends the match). Also, while leg grabs are legal in Kodokan judo rules (as well as IJF rules prior to 2013), but they are illegal under post-2012 IJF rules. (IJF = Olympic judo, the most widely practiced competition format).
As for the uniform, aside from the sleeve difference that you mentioned, another difference is that the Shuai Jiao jacket is tighter. It's not a disadvantage per se, it just changes the feel of the game and makes some techniques easier, other techniques harder.

Not that this was a super intense match, but it would explain why the judoka didn't start looking harder after the first two throws, since those wouldn't tabulate on his reflexive mental scorecard.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

I love that uniform. Almost looks like a caricature of the bad guys from a movie or video game or something.

Soylent Pudding
Jun 22, 2007

We've got people!


I've taken a couple Muay Thai classes at a nearby MMA studio. I'm enjoying it enough I think I'm going to stick with it. So far I've been using the community gloves and shin pads but I think I'm ready go ahead and invest in my own set. Can anyone recommend a legit source to order from? I'm also 6'5" so if they support larger sizes that would be ideal.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Most XL stuff should cover the top of the tibia, though I understand if you'd want something that gets at least the bottom of the patella.
I've never used Yokkao but see people say they're pretty long.
https://www.nakmuaywholesale.com/product-category/muay-thai-equipment/muay-thai-shin-guards/

As I tell my students, there's two things you want:
- foot straps that don't interfere with the balls of your feet and heels
- on the back of your calves, single long straps that fold over themselves through a loop, instead of two halves that fit together. IMO, it's more secure. And it reduces the exposed velcro to scrape your training partners' arms when they catch your kicks.

This is the list I show them for "just tell me which one"

and I say, "pick the ones that look cool so you'll want to use them"
I prefer the extra padding layer over the shins, as that takes an extra bit of sting out of checks and getting checked.

The SP8s might have just a bit extra coverage for your leg length.


With gloves, I think there's a greater chance you don't like the fit of a particular model. Not a big chance, but enough that I'd ask people at your gym to try theirs on for fit before ordering.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

We are sending a team of color belts to compete in a karate tournament this weekend. I'm curious to see how they make out.

The forms might be interesting, likely in a bad way lol

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slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

So, chatted with one of the BBs that went to this to find out how our team did.

Turned out this was a horribly run event in many respects. Basically a clinic in how not to run a tournament.

Sky high entry fees. Like $85/pp per division per event. If you wanted to compete in continuous sparring and point sparring, that's $170 thanks you come again. As such sounds like our competitors all went into point.

Little things, like no flag for the anthem. Not a biggie but not hard to do and super basic.

Then immediately after the anthem, announced that they need volunteers. Not for basic stuff like check in or putting ribbons on athletes, no, but for timekeeping, logging division results and refereeing and judging.

Total chaos and disorganization.

Turns out the club organizing it was largely a total disappointment in skill level as well. As in their black belts were sparring at our green/blue level.

I'm genuinely surprised. I don't know why I assumed a Karate club would be better, I guess just biases related to Japanese arts having their poo poo together, but they're still human and piss poor planning=poor event. What a surprise.

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