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Tesseraction posted:Also just from replaying CS1 and now on Chapter 1 of CS2, it really hits home how dirty Claire has been done by the end of the Erebonia arc. I wouldn't say that. Her character arc is entirely consistent. Even from the start of CS 1, she had chosen to become a loyal follower of someone who had a well-deserved reputation - even outside of Erebonia - for ruthlessness. (CS 4, vague) It's a classic case of the "sunk cost" fallacy. She's become so devoted to Osborne that even knowing she's doing the wrong things, even hating herself for the choices she's made, she still cannot turn aside from the path she chose. After playing CS 4, I can't help but think back to Azure, and (Azure Chapter 4 end+) how Noel came pretty close to falling into the sunk cost fallacy herself.
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Apr 17, 2023 16:49
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While true, I guess my problem is more that (CS4) she went from being so badass etc. to spending the ending of CS3 pining for Rean as he runs past her, to then spending the opening of CS4 crying about what she's done, to then just spending almost all of CS4 just being absolutely pathetic. I get that she's conflicted, and that makes for great characterisation, but compared to her Icey Maiden persona in 1/2 she just seems to suddenly switch to being passive and generally ineffective at her jobin a way that doesn't hold up to her previous ability to show stoicism and leadership. I'll admit that I'm now replaying the games in order so I'll probably have a fuller argument to make after seeing the whole thing play out in immediate order, rather than the years between I had to wait previously.
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Apr 17, 2023 19:11
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Falcom wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to ratchet up the tension with the villains kidnapping a party member and attempting to commit child sacrifice, but then didn't want hard feelings between the characters or for characters to be held accountable for their actions. In Claire's case Falcom chose to turn her into a fragile girl to try to distract from her culpability. But this isn't an issue exclusive to Claire. This happens to most Trails antagonists. You can count the number of Trails antagonists who aren't allowed off the hook and who the heroes are unfriendly with on one hand, and they're all men.
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Apr 17, 2023 19:23
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And Campanella, who is still gender ambiguous. CS4: Juna I think points out that while everyone else has split according to the correct gender, Campanella is fighting alongside the women, and Campanella is confused why that's unexpected. Somewhat curious what's said in the Japanese text there actually.
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Apr 17, 2023 20:05
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Tesseraction posted:While true, I guess my problem is more that (CS4) she went from being so badass etc. to spending the ending of CS3 pining for Rean as he runs past her, to then spending the opening of CS4 crying about what she's done, to then just spending almost all of CS4 just being absolutely pathetic. I get that she's conflicted, and that makes for great characterisation, but compared to her Icey Maiden persona in 1/2 she just seems to suddenly switch to being passive and generally ineffective at her jobin a way that doesn't hold up to her previous ability to show stoicism and leadership. It's easy to be stoic and show good, decisive leadership when your orders received are about fighting corruption and terrorist organizations, things which are in line with your personal moral values. (CS 4) As opposed to things which aren't so much in line with your personal moral values, such as sacrificing children, collaborating with terrorist organizations, and brainwashing thousands of people to go off and die in a war based on a lie.
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Apr 17, 2023 20:25
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Yeah, Claire is still effective at her job in CS4, but she gives Class 7 some slack and does stuff like let them run off when the RPD comes to clean up the aftermath of sidequests in because deep down she wants them to succeed, but as others said she feels she's in too deep to just switch sides.
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Apr 17, 2023 20:29
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I'll see how I feel once I played through Erebonia again. Maybe time has tempered the bad taste in my mouth. No amount of time can explain that outfit though.
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Apr 17, 2023 20:34
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kirbysuperstar posted:?? Last Celebration posted:Yeah if anything I wasn’t clear enough on specifying Ys 1/2 in my original post, I can see why OP thought I was talking about Wanderers From Ys. This is why we need a comprehensive compilation like that recent Wonder Boy one where each version of every installment had a different number depending on the region/platform. It can all finally make sense.
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Apr 17, 2023 23:43
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Tesseraction posted:While true, I guess my problem is more that (CS4) she went from being so badass etc. to spending the ending of CS3 pining for Rean as he runs past her, to then spending the opening of CS4 crying about what she's done, to then just spending almost all of CS4 just being absolutely pathetic. I get that she's conflicted, and that makes for great characterisation, but compared to her Icey Maiden persona in 1/2 she just seems to suddenly switch to being passive and generally ineffective at her jobin a way that doesn't hold up to her previous ability to show stoicism and leadership. Part of it is that her Original VA died. In Japan thats a big deal so she got a reduced role. Being torn between your adopted dad and the adopted brother he gave you is pain though. I need fanart of Rean's extended family lmao.
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Apr 17, 2023 23:45
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MythosDragon posted:Part of it is that her Original VA died. In Japan thats a big deal so she got a reduced role. Oh gently caress, you're right, I'd completely forgotten about that. That makes a lot more sense in terms of her getting less prominence. I'd like to see what they had originally planned, even if just as paragraph or three in a book someday.
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Apr 17, 2023 23:49
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Most of the ironbloods had it rough tbh.
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Apr 17, 2023 23:52
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They did, although by the end of Erebonia's arc I feel their motivations didn't match their actions. But again, I'm replaying them back to back now to see if how I remember them is actually how it went!
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Apr 17, 2023 23:56
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The sad thing is that Trails main antagonists are mostly really boring so once Osborne finally became the central villains it was all downhill for the ironbloods. Except Rufus and Cedric those two came out ok.
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Apr 18, 2023 00:00
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Most of the ironbloods had it rough tbh. [Azure, CS4] Lechter seemed to be enjoying himself just fine. I mean yeah he has a tragic-ish backstory and tries to join Claire's big suicide attempt but everything in-between that is him showing pretty much no remorse for anything. In Azure he even openly taunts the SSS about how Crossbell is about to get invaded while seeing them off for the final dungeon, what a poo poo I hate him. Contrast with Claire who keeps throwing parts of herself away until the only thing left is pure, refined self-loathing. They may have screwed up the execution(which is CS4.txt lol) but her arc was probably always gonna end with the aborted suicide attempt at least. SyntheticPolygon posted:The sad thing is that Trails main antagonists are mostly really boring so once Osborne finally became the central villains it was all downhill for the ironbloods. Except Rufus and Cedric those two came out ok. [Still CS4]Cedric was great right up until his resolution which blew chunks. "Oh the curse made me do it, but it was also me? Anyway i'm gonna go join Ouroboros now to become a real man or something, I don't know." Rufus was great though, the only villain who had the decency to give us the catharsis of him being a complete unrepetant rear end in a top hat from start to finish. e: Tesseraction posted:And Campanella, who is still gender ambiguous. I think it's a Wazy situation where they don't actually care either way and will roll with whatever you refer to them as Yinlock fucked around with this message at 12:15 on Apr 18, 2023 |
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Apr 18, 2023 12:13
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Trails of Azure Fragment Not sure why this short part needed to be separated as a separate chapter, but I don't mind. Expected a much bigger intermission like the Mishy part. you dumb Wald, hope get gets a good punch in the face from Wazy before he comes to his senses. Noel looks really good in the new white Cross Defense Force uniform. So when Noel was talking to llyod, was Gracia already there listening before the reveal he's in the same cell? lol. It was pretty neat teaming up with Garcia. I thought he was a fine dude in Zero. Yea, he was mafia, but he knew there was a line and he was more or less professional if what he was trying to do. It was neat knocking on the other cell doors to see who was in them. Omg, Zelt is a big talking wolf! :O Oh he's a divine beast thing, should have seen it coming. lol when he 'ate' one guy and spit him back out. Omg, Wazy is one of those Dominion guys. I think I would know more about this whole church thing if I played the Sky series. Apparently Kevin was the MC of Sky 3rd. Looks like heaing to the Finale chapter. Expecting a lot more reveals.
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Apr 18, 2023 16:17
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One thing you can't fault the 2.5d games about is the wild twists they produce that aren't just arse-pulls. Feel that was less the case in CS2/4 but then the latter game has the student writing their essay at 4 AM "poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo" vibe to it.
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Apr 18, 2023 16:53
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For as short as it is, I love the Azure Fragment so much.
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Apr 18, 2023 17:22
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GateOfD posted:Trails of Azure Fragment Yeah playing 3rd is kinda required to know why that's a Big Deal. Also yeah the jailbreak owned, shoutouts to the prison plumbing being stronger than every single weapon in Zero including the ones made out of Zemurian Ore
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Apr 19, 2023 00:44
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Yinlock posted:[Still CS4]Cedric was great right up until his resolution which blew chunks. "Oh the curse made me do it, but it was also me? Anyway i'm gonna go join Ouroboros now to become a real man or something, I don't know." Rufus was great though, the only villain who had the decency to give us the catharsis of him being a complete unrepetant rear end in a top hat from start to finish. I actually kinda liked the resolution. (CS4 spoilers ahead) In a meta sense, I thought it was neat that Cedric acknowledged that even though he brought the continent to the edge of world war, there wouldn't be any real consequences for someone of his station, aside from the fact that if he'd ever succeed his father, he'd be tainted in the eyes of every other country in western Zemuria. So with that road pretty much cut off from him in a practical sense, it's not that weird that he'd turn to the one organisation that would still have him, which also gave him time to figure out what to do with his life now that the road he's been forced to follow all his life is closed off.
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Apr 19, 2023 07:30
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I just think it’s cool that Cedric’s arc is that he needs to embrace that the same parts of himself responsible for him wanting to murder his brother and be an evil toady are also his most admirable traits and that to self-actualise and grow as a person he must accept his villainous acts and in fact join an evil terrorist organisation instead of reuniting with his family who are all willing to forgive him. Just a real interesting take on things. Cedric would be a more moral person were he to stay with his siblings and make amends but in a sense he’s a stronger person (and certainly a more interesting character) for sticking to his guns.
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Apr 19, 2023 08:19
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Speaking of which, replaying through CS2 it's rather funny (end of CS3, CS4) seeing characters like Sharon saying she would always side with Rean (due to Alisa) over Ouroboros or Claire saying "I don't see any reason I'll ever be anything but an ally to you or Class VII." In both cases there's mitigating circumstances - Franz and Osbourne returning from the dead respectively, but in this case I wonder if this was some early foreshadowing or just them being in-the-moment supportive.
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Apr 19, 2023 09:37
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I finished Chapter 2 of my NG+ Hard run of Azure, using More Portraits in Azure and Azure Vitality. There was a neat special scene on the NG+ version, but it's definitely spoilers for Azure and CS 3+.Tesseraction posted:Speaking of which, replaying through CS2 it's rather funny (end of CS3, CS4) seeing characters like Sharon saying she would always side with Rean (due to Alisa) over Ouroboros or Claire saying "I don't see any reason I'll ever be anything but an ally to you or Class VII." In both cases there's mitigating circumstances - Franz and Osbourne returning from the dead respectively, but in this case I wonder if this was some early foreshadowing or just them being in-the-moment supportive. I think it was the writers doing the former by having the characters do the latter.
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Apr 19, 2023 16:09
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:More Portraits in Azure and Azure Vitality What are these? Vita content mods?
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Apr 19, 2023 16:30
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Yes. I actually delayed playing Chapter 1 of Azure until the more portraits mod was complete. More Portraits in Azure - Just adds new portraits for characters, some of which were taken from a ... gacha game "Akatsuki no Kiseki." There are also optional improved vanilla portraits. Portrait List
Azure Vitality - This one adds the five Vita-exclusive quests. It comes with a version which is compatible with More Portraits in Azure.
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Apr 19, 2023 16:56
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Speaking of that patch, anyone has any idea of the two question mark characters that have been announced, but not implemented?
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Apr 20, 2023 05:55
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Tesseraction posted:Speaking of which, replaying through CS2 it's rather funny (end of CS3, CS4) seeing characters like Sharon saying she would always side with Rean (due to Alisa) over Ouroboros or Claire saying "I don't see any reason I'll ever be anything but an ally to you or Class VII." In both cases there's mitigating circumstances - Franz and Osbourne returning from the dead respectively, but in this case I wonder if this was some early foreshadowing or just them being in-the-moment supportive. When you replay CS2 like half of it is just really heavy-handed foreshadowing that everything is going to go straight to hell. You never notice it on the first run but on subsequent ones you're just like "oh. oh no." SyntheticPolygon posted:I just think it’s cool that Cedric’s arc is that he needs to embrace that the same parts of himself responsible for him wanting to murder his brother and be an evil toady are also his most admirable traits and that to self-actualise and grow as a person he must accept his villainous acts and in fact join an evil terrorist organisation instead of reuniting with his family who are all willing to forgive him. His guns nearly killed everyone though. Well not directly, he actually sucked as a fighter and New Class VII was able to hand him and his Divine Knight their asses even without Rean around but you know what I mean. Like a running Thing through CS3/4 is that his timid "weak" self was the part everyone liked and the power-lusting toady side of him kind of visercally disgusts anyone who directly witnesses it, even those close to him. Even Shirley is like "lol gross" when he's practically dry-humping his Divine Knight when he first boards it at the end of CS3. OTOH Ouroboros is all about people making insanely bad life chocies when they reach a dead end so I guess he fits right in, and it does make him a more interesting character for me to beat up in later games. e: Another Thing is that despite always claiming to be big and strong now he never really accomplishes anything on his own and is always piggybacking off his allies' efforts while claiming all the credit(which was in part a way for Osborne to make him the Big Hero of the empire, but he himself definitely had no idea lol) He's all ego and no ability, kinda like an inverse Rean. I think that actually made him more interesting, which is why I'm sad the curse undid it but also he decided to stay a villain anyway??? Yinlock fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 21, 2023 09:50
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Maybe sticking to your guns even if it all goes wrong is simply strength of character. Many a Trails character has stuck to their guns even after nearly being killed and I salute them.
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Apr 21, 2023 10:50
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Did Gilbert teach you nothing? If at first you don't succeed, join Ouroboros.
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Apr 21, 2023 11:44
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Tesseraction posted:Did Gilbert teach you nothing? If at first you don't succeed, join Ouroboros. Why do they keep him around anyway I guess he must be incredibly competent elsewhere but whenever Estelle's in his proximity he just shits the bed immediately Yinlock fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 21, 2023 13:43
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Campanella thinks he's funny. And Campanella's right
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Apr 21, 2023 13:45
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Yeah, in Sky 3rd it's explicitly mentioned that Campanella keeps him around for entertainment purposes as Gilbert's constant failures and gently caress-ups are amusing, as is his misery.
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Apr 21, 2023 13:46
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SyntheticPolygon posted:Maybe sticking to your guns even if it all goes wrong is simply strength of character. Many a Trails character has stuck to their guns even after nearly being killed and I salute them. When those guns are the reason things go wrong it is not Though at least [e: CS4 spoilers] Cedric is supposed to be a fuckup unlike Irina "Warcrimes" Reinford who makes everything worse and gets half her company hijacked in CS1/2 by blindly chasing profit above all else(with a dose of emotionally abusing her daughter who has spent her life trying to loving warn her of this exact thing), then does it again in CS3 to exactly the same consequences, having learned absolutely nothing. And then the game treats her as a Respected Authority Figure, why. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 21, 2023 13:49
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Because the game thinks the amoral businesswoman is a cool vibe and ultimately she always ends up aiding the heroes.
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Apr 21, 2023 13:53
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Does it? I've always interpreted the game treating her as unhealthily obsessed, having basically lost her ties to healthy relationships with the death of her husband. Even in CS3 when she does a face-heel turn it's over her husband returning from the dead, and when she then heel-face turns in CS4 it's because she is honest with herself that her husband is gone forever, and continues being emotionally cut-off. I mean she's treated with respect because she's ruthless and will gently caress you up? That said in CS2 she doesn't get kidnapped because of chasing profit or anything, she just gets kidnapped? She even specifically tells Rogner that she can't fault him for ousting her the way he did because she did it to her own dad. Before that kickass double-slap-and-gutpunch.
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Apr 21, 2023 13:59
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Tesseraction posted:Yeah, in Sky 3rd it's explicitly mentioned that Campanella keeps him around for entertainment purposes as Gilbert's constant failures and gently caress-ups are amusing, as is his misery. It's amazing how insanely quick of a shift he had from the first serious threat in Sky to an absolute clownshow. SyntheticPolygon posted:Because the game thinks the amoral businesswoman is a cool vibe and ultimately she always ends up aiding the heroes. She doesn't though, she just kind of stands around while everyone talks about how cool she is but I don't think she ever actually helps anyone. Alisa uses her business resources and connections to help a lot and Sharon is Sharon but Irina just kinda sits there acting bored about problems she helped cause. Tesseraction posted:Does it? I've always interpreted the game treating her as unhealthily obsessed, having basically lost her ties to healthy relationships with the death of her husband. Even in CS3 when she does a face-heel turn it's over her husband returning from the dead, and when she then heel-face turns in CS4 it's because she is honest with herself that her husband is gone forever, and continues being emotionally cut-off. I mean she's treated with respect because she's ruthless and will gently caress you up? Her business practices(namely, the rapid profit-based expansion and letting each division essentially govern themselves as long as they were pulling in money) is what let the 5th division mass-produce mechs for terrorists right under her nose and eventually led to the takeover of her company. Alisa warns her about this(at least, how the rapid expansion is making her lose touch as to what's actually happening in her corporation) in CS1 I think, maybe 2. In one of Alisa's CS3/4 events it's also explained that the 5th division was able to be turned like this because their workers were not having the greatest time and so were easily bribed or encouraged to take out their frustrations on the company. The company is a mess but it's making money so Irina doesn't really care and it bites her in the rear end more than once(she never admits fault for it but still has the energy to talk down to Alisa a bunch) Also I forgot that she took over because her dad didn't want to sell horrible death guns to the military. Just a real sterling human being. She has a couple cool moments but overall is just kind of horrible and never really changes for the better. And this is fine for a character we're supposed to hate, but her speeches sometimes get heroic music and people in-story often spend time talking about how cool she is, it's frustrating. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 21, 2023 14:46
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Yeah, Irina is really a (CS 1) hosed-up human being. I remember realizing that her schedule is practically planned-by-the-minute, so her introduction in CS 1 was her scheduling time going to the train station just so she could ignore her daughter right to her face in front of her friends. She hadn't seen her daughter in months, and Alisa says she suspects that Irina didn't notice Alisa had left Roer until days or maybe weeks afterwards (I think, the localization is worded a little confusingly), and her only acknowledgement was "Hello, Alisa." Later on in CS 1's Chapter 6, Irina even outright says "Time is something you make, not something you find," right to Alisa's face. Coming from her... I'd call that 'incredibly tone-deaf' if I didn't think she knew exactly what she was saying. That's literally saying "You, my daughter, are not something worth making time for." But in that same conversation, she does also say "The opinions of others are only that. Stop relying on them so much. Observe for yourself and draw your own conclusions. That's what someone who was truly independent would do, anyway," which is actually good advice. Perhaps in her own extreme, borderline cruel way, Irina was trying to foster Alisa's independence? Alisa definitely blossomed once she stopped trying to impress her mother, and instead was able to focus on just doing the best she could for herself. That's one reason she's my favorite character in the Cold Steel series. Tesseraction posted:Does it? I've always interpreted the game treating her as unhealthily obsessed, having basically lost her ties to healthy relationships with the death of her husband. Even in CS3 when she does a face-heel turn it's over her husband returning from the dead, and when she then heel-face turns in CS4 it's because she is honest with herself that her husband is gone forever, and continues being emotionally cut-off. I mean she's treated with respect because she's ruthless and will gently caress you up? That character honestly was completely baffling to me. I just couldn't figure out what made them tick at all until Act 3 of CS 4. It finally sunk in at the big confrontation that Irina was a romantic. It was the combination of a few things which shut her down emotionally. Her husband - even before his disappearance - had been betraying her, using his position to pass along proprietary information to Ouroboros. I don't think she knew about that until that moment. I suspect that his marrying her was him playing her - a deception to make it easier for him to get the information he wanted. Even if that isn't actually the case, she had good cause to think it might have been. That's a devastating betrayal of trust. In addition, she knew all along that he wasn't dead. He was out there, somewhere. No closure, just a big question mark. That no doubt contributed to her emotional shutdown. She couldn't go forward, she couldn't go backwards. When he reappeared, she actually tried to see if the man she loved was still in there... but he wasn't. And yet, at that time she also learned that he might still be, his body is "possessed". So of course she remained emotionally cut-off, because she still doesn't have closure. Her husband's fate is still in limbo. We don't see her again after she can finally get some kind of closure. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Apr 21, 2023 |
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Apr 21, 2023 15:45
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Tesseraction posted:Did Gilbert teach you nothing? If at first you don't succeed, join Ouroboros. And if at third, you don't succeed, go to literal hell and come back a better person. ...and then still get clowned by teenagers.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:15
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Some Numbers posted:And if at third, you don't succeed, go to literal hell and come back a better person. Ah, the Emperor Mateus way
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Apr 22, 2023 12:17
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Yeah, Irina is really a (CS 1) hosed-up human being. I remember realizing that her schedule is practically planned-by-the-minute, so her introduction in CS 1 was her scheduling time going to the train station just so she could ignore her daughter right to her face in front of her friends. She hadn't seen her daughter in months, and Alisa says she suspects that Irina didn't notice Alisa had left Roer until days or maybe weeks afterwards (I think, the localization is worded a little confusingly), and her only acknowledgement was "Hello, Alisa." It's possible, though the little dig about "independence" at the end makes me think she was partially just being petty, Alisa calling her a fuckup to her face is just about the only thing that will elicit any kind of emotional reaction from her in regards to her daughter, even if that reaction is condescending derision(usually just some form of "Oh I suppose YOU could do any better?") Also yeah the moment where she explicitly walks around her own child without even acknowledging her, in front of her friends, is super hosed-up. And I never thought about the fact that she made time in her schedule for that. Just let me pencil in some emotional abuse at 3. Alisa only really starts soaring when she stops trying to bridge that gap for the most part and just does her own thing. With the whole double-memory thing it's kinda hard to tell how much was The Plan and how much was genuine. The human personality does seem to genuinely love his family, at least but yeah it's kind of hard to tell what she's thinking for the most part because she shows very, very little emotional response to anything, even rejecting Evil Franz. The only time she actually got mad in 4 games was when her home was invaded. My take is that she's drowned in her work for so long as a coping mechanism that it's the only way she can really interact with the world anymore, and she gets annoyed at anything that interrupts that whether that's terrorists or her own family. Everything has to be Business. There's still small pieces left of who she was but they are buried under a mountain of spreadsheets and meetings and quarterly reports. good ol cia document discussion Yinlock fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 17:14
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She sounded pretty betrayed when when Sharon left. In general she's a pretty decent mum to her older daughter.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:35
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