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Perhaps this is not the thread for such a discussion, but someone will probably pipe up and talk about how explosive Hydrogen is, (as if Gasoline isn't, though maybe less so than Hydrogen). What are the ideas for keeping hydrogen tanks safe? Just make the tanks strong as gently caress? Or lighter duty, but a protective cage around them? Would they be made from a non sparking material?
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Apr 20, 2023 01:16
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You're absolutely right! Flammability limit of hydrogen is 4% - that's not a lot! But remember that hydrogen itself isn't new and isn't something people aren't familiar with. The US currently consumes 10 million tons of hydrogen annually; it's going to consume a hell of a lot more in the future, but it does mean that when it comes to things like safety, the industry is already mature. There's a lot of talk about hydrogen and safety but it's mostly in the context of educating people, not "how are we going to make it safe". https://www.aiche.org/chs There are currently some issues regarding the widespread adoption of hydrogen requiring new and novel ways for sensing leaks, but that work is also ongoing and mainly led by NREL https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/sensor-laboratory.html
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Apr 20, 2023 01:40
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spankmeister posted:Don't forget trains and trucking. The world still runs very much on diesel. I remember having this exchange with my chud brother-in-law: "You claim to be in favor of reneweable energy and killing coal, but you drive that" *gestures at '66 Pontiac land barge* "I fully expect to live long enough to see it banned and then hopefully, donated to a museum. Our grandchildren will regal their offspring with stories of how we burned light ends for convenience, creating rivers of poison we all breathed in on road trips." Still waiting for his response.
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Apr 20, 2023 04:12
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By the way, they are 100% going to convert trains to hydrogen. It's not a matter of if but when. Most of the discussion is on trucking but I honestly think that's only because the rail industry is fairly condensed and everyone just assumes rail will eventually be converted to fuel cells. Considering the nature of rail transport, I think it's probably one of the easier industries to decarbonize.
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Apr 20, 2023 06:05
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I'm just curious how anyone intends to store enough hydrogen non-cryogenically to get anything done.
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Apr 20, 2023 06:55
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Who said anything about non-cryogenically? Also, caves. Literally in the ground. https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article270349407.html Not just salt caves but other types of ground features are being considered. I'm not a geologist but there was one at a conference recently, working out of a DOE lab, talking about researching the various types of rock that they could put hydrogen in. The other interesting thing about hydrogen is that the precursors are pretty readily available in most places so all you need for local production is a bit of space to put something and electricity and/or waste heat (for SOFC). So there will of course be large centralized electrolyzers but I could also see the future with localized small-scale production being a big part of the landscape.
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Apr 20, 2023 14:00
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I mostly meant on the vehicles themselves, though that is pretty interesting that it can be stored in the ground effectively.
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Apr 20, 2023 15:21
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You need very little hydrogen to get the range necessary on LDVs. FCVs already exist with good range (Mirai, etc) Current discussions have basically two standards for omboard storage, 350 or 700 bar. Most discussion I hear has been around 700 bar but it may be because I'm skewing towards HD applications for various reasons.
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Apr 20, 2023 15:47
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Hydrogen as a transitional fuel probably has a place in the same sorts of local fleet applications where CNG works today, but I will be shocked if it ever goes anywhere for personally owned vehicles. The problem that a parked vehicle slowly vents its fuel over the course of a few weeks as the temperature in the tank increases doesn't matter to a fleet vehicle that gets used almost every day of the year. As a road trip vehicle the fueling experience doesn't seem to be all that great. It's faster than an EV when it works well, but it has a lot of weird quirks around pressure where both the speed and amount you can fuel depend on the pressure in your tank and the pressure available at the station. These are things that a fleet with predictable needs can manage, but a random fueling station along the interstate can't. wolrah fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Apr 20, 2023 |
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Apr 20, 2023 19:43
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LDVs in the US, especially, will almost certainly be all BEV. But also, vehicles would have gaseous H2 anyway. It is already in use for fleets like fork lifts, port drayage trucks, etc. Almost entirely in California. There shouldn't be any problems with fueling though; there are already a significant number of hydrogen fueling stations that have been in use for many years (in California). totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Apr 20, 2023 |
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Apr 20, 2023 21:57
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Apologies if I’m in the wrong thread on this one: how is the used car market now? Is it still absolute madness? Any prospect of improvement going forward? Looking to buy an older something to haul kids/dogs/crap around, but don’t have to buy now.
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Apr 20, 2023 22:33
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Apologies if I’m in the wrong thread on this one: how is the used car market now? Is it still absolute madness? Any prospect of improvement going forward? Looking to buy an older something to haul kids/dogs/crap around, but don’t have to buy now. Same as it's been since last summer: it's getting better, but it'll be even better in six months
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Apr 20, 2023 22:39
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My very old truck's tires need replacing, and I'm not looking to spend the close to $800 (at least) it would be for four new ones, especially since I don't know how much longer the old girl can keep on truckin', as it were. I have a lead on 4 new tires on rims, that allegedly hold air (unless they're entirely flat, can't really be any worse than the current ones that need to be topped off every time I use the truck (which is, granted, is only like 1-2x a week.)) for only $100. BUT my truck takes P245/75 R16, and these are P235/75 R15 (same lug pattern) So first number and the rim size are both smaller, but the aspect ration is the same, so it's going to be overall a smaller tire, right? But not by much, using a size comparison, it seems the smaller tire will only be rotating about 5% more than the larger one?  I have a '99 Mazda B4000, Troy Lee edition (not sure what that correlates to if it was an actual Ford-branded Ranger, but it is the extended cab (so those weird, suicide-style swing out doors) and 4.0 liter engine.) The rims and tires came off a standard 2-door '99 Ranger. So I SHOULD be ok to use them? I'll have a larger gap betwen the tires and the inside of the wheel well, but...big deal? Shouldn't affect things too much, right?
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Apr 21, 2023 15:50
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That generation of Ranger came with tires as small as 225/70R14 on 2WD trucks which are a full 4" shorter in height than the 245/75R16. I'd do those $100 tires/wheels if they're in serviceable shape and you don't expect the truck to outlast them.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:47
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Just make sure the DOT date codes aren't prehistoric and the tires aren't dry rotted before buying.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:12
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totalnewbie posted:There shouldn't be any problems with fueling though; there are already a significant number of hydrogen fueling stations that have been in use for many years (in California). Timestamped to discussion of fueling issues while just trying to drive a round trip from LA to San Jose and back. If you're not familiar with The Smoking Tire, they're a car enthusiast channel as the name implies but are very EV/alternative fuel friendly, they're not just whining about how it's not as convenient as gasoline.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:49
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wolrah posted:As a road trip vehicle the fueling experience doesn't seem to be all that great. It's faster than an EV when it works well, but it has a lot of weird quirks around pressure where both the speed and amount you can fuel depend on the pressure in your tank and the pressure available at the station. These are things that a fleet with predictable needs can manage, but a random fueling station along the interstate can't. I wonder if they could do something like a cylinder with a movable piston inside, where the piston also has an orifice that can be opened or closed. During normal use, it would just kinda hang out like this, with hydrogen free to flow throughout the cylinder:  Before fueling, the piston could move all the way to the "filler neck" end, the orifice could close, and then the piston starts moving away from that end. Then as you're fueling, the piston could kind of regulate pressure in the end being filled. Have it move further from the filler end as appropriate, compressing the "old" fuel further, and leaving a relatively low pressure zone for the pump to fill. When you're done fueling, the tank is sealed up, and the piston moves to an equilibrium position with the same pressure on both sides (to avoid a cool whistling sound on the next step). Then the orifice opens and all the hydrogen is free to intermingle again. To avoid human error, ideally this would all be automated. Like you'd open the filler door, it would do it's thing, and not let you add hydrogen until it's ready. But it could work. Maybe  .
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Apr 21, 2023 19:36
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wolrah posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U37deOntUgM&t=502s I should be clear that my perspective is that of an engineer so when I'm talking about fueling issues, I'm referring to fundamental technological challenges to fueling. Whether or not the deployment itself is good or not is a separate issue that I am, personally, less concerned with. My assumption is that "growing pains" will work themselves out as long as the technology is fundamentally sound.
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Apr 21, 2023 19:51
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totalnewbie posted:I should be clear that my perspective is that of an engineer so when I'm talking about fueling issues, I'm referring to fundamental technological challenges to fueling. Whether or not the deployment itself is good or not is a separate issue that I am, personally, less concerned with. My assumption is that "growing pains" will work themselves out as long as the technology is fundamentally sound. How's that been working out for EV charging?
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Apr 21, 2023 20:06
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Fine? There was a study about the incidents and severity of disruption to charging stations but I don't have it handy atm. I know that one of the biggest concerns for BEV is the accessibility of charging for everyone. How is it going to work if you have roommates and so there's 4 BEVs for a single house? What if you live in an apartment complex? There's also a lot of work going into actually standardizing charging so that connectors, etc will be common. That's going to be very important going forward so you're not tied into Tesla or whomever's network if you don't have 4 hours to sit around charging. But they're working standards for some really high powered charging (for rail, ferries, etc) so I think cars will have options of they need it.
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Apr 21, 2023 20:41
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totalnewbie posted:Fine? That's not been my experience. Your hand waving is doing a lot of heavy lifting. But at least you admit to that up front.
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Apr 21, 2023 21:09
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totalnewbie posted:I should be clear that my perspective is that of an engineer so when I'm talking about fueling issues, I'm referring to fundamental technological challenges to fueling. Whether or not the deployment itself is good or not is a separate issue that I am, personally, less concerned with. My assumption is that "growing pains" will work themselves out as long as the technology is fundamentally sound. Lol. I love getting insight into why some things are just loving infuriating and it’s because engineers like not-my-problem handwaving. Deployment concerns are absolutely an engineering problem.
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Apr 21, 2023 22:56
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Okay, but engineers aren't a monolith. My interest is not that from the specifics of deployment side. There are engineers for whom it IS their interest. But it just isn't me. So I probably could and should have worded that better but it's pretty ridiculous for you to think that things may be problematic because we just don't give a gently caress. Edit: Alright, I have the study handy now. In this study, they were looking at charging behavior in California. They looked into people's charging habits and the vast majority of those habits were at places with relatively predictable power, home and work. Of the charging that took place outside of that, they looked at the actual disruption from not being able to charge. From the data currently available, 40% EV owners in California experienced problems. They also looked at the actual disruption that would have been caused by charging failures: cannot finish trip (~5%), cannot reach next charge (~18%), or cannot finish day (~19%). However, out of those, it was ~3% of cases where drivers were a single unsuccessful charge away from being stranded. Of the actual disruptions, 4% had drivers finding out hours after the fact that they didn't have a successful charge and two drivers were stranded. So looking at the data, it's clear that there's a big problem with dependability of the chargers (40% contacted customer service) but the actual disruptions were relatively minor (96% of cases had drivers finding out immediately and 97% of all scenarios would have kept drivers stranded). Given the current stage of charging stations, that seems okay (not good, but okay). So, I mean, people are looking at these things and working on it. Just because I'm mostly concerned about technological barriers doesn't mean others aren't looking at the practical side. In somewhat unrelated applications like what I've worked on with cars, I can tell you that some things like serviceability are absolutely a concern and are written into our component requirements, but at the end of the day if the battle is between "how easy is it to service" and "is this part going to melt and potentially start a fire" I think you and I both know which side is going to win that argument. The latter may not be as dramatic in every case but those decisions are USUALLY made for a reason. The other thing is that I guarantee you there are better solutions but when you ask, "Who is going to pay for that?" people will look at each other and welp, there goes that idea. totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 21, 2023 23:42
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It's almost like the "deployment problems" solve themselves because people who don't own homes where they can install a charger and/or live where there are chargers don't have a problem. Because they don't buy EVs because they can't charge them.
Motronic fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 00:28
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You're right that it's a big topic about how to roll out EVs to multi-vehicle houses or multi-unit dwellings. Not least of which is that the power requirements for those residential areas are going to spike heavily and more than the local grid might be able to handle at the moment. The concern isn't really the how or the technology. The technology exists and we know how to do it. The problem is that it's really loving expensive so... In my eyes, we're hosed. Mass adoption of BEVs and FCVs + other non-hydrocarbon fuels is going to happen. It just is. 2035? Ehhhh.. That said, we're pretty much at the very, very beginning of the ramp up period so it's easy to be pessimistic about the way things are going (because we're likely judging on a linear scale whereas what will (hopefully..) happen will be on an exponential scale). Maybe. But like I said, I think we, as a society, are kind of hosed. Great time to sell real estate in Miami. totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 01:26
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totalnewbie posted:The concern isn't really the how or the technology. The technology exists and we know how to do it. The problem is that it's really loving expensive so... "Make the grid capable of this" is way more than just a cost issue. But I mean, again....you do your thing and keep waving those hands.
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Apr 22, 2023 01:30
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Motronic posted:"Make the grid capable of this" is way more than just a cost issue. But I mean, again....you do your thing and keep waving those hands. Is it? I mean, we're certainly capable of distributing a lot of power on a large scale. That's not really an issue. You can fix that problem easily by throwing money at it. We don't have technological challenges that aren't "easily" solved (when it comes to rolling out BEVs and charging). That is, we don't need revolutionary new technology to address these issues. Economic, political, etc., well, that's a different issue.
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Apr 22, 2023 01:31
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totalnewbie posted:Is it? Yes. Rights of way, balancing short term environment concerns over long terms ones, nuclear power........... Surely you are aware of these things being an issue at least in concept, right?
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Apr 22, 2023 01:41
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None of those are really technological. We know how to generate clean energy fairly well but there simply isn't enough of it being built, etc.
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Apr 22, 2023 02:04
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totalnewbie posted:We know how to generate clean energy fairly well but there simply isn't enough of it being built, etc. Knowing how to pull a dick is one thing. Getting capitalism to jerk on that hog is a different issue. None of this poo poo matters anyway when people are taking 3+ private flights a day. cursedshitbox fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 02:12
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Yeah, I pretty much agree that government will have to either fund it themselves or beat the ever living poo poo out of companies to make them do it. And probably pay them at the same time but, well, that's the system we got. As for your comment about planes, well, it's certainly significant but still only something like 10% of LD+HD vehicles. (Page 17 of this pdf https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/clean-hydrogen-strategy-roadmap.pdf ) totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 02:22
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I can’t find a chat thread, so this seems as good a thread as any. Some time in the next few months I will be taking receipt of my late grandfathers 1977 Lincoln Continental Mark V. I also have a 2019 Ford Fiesta ST. I was gonna make a thread documenting updates/upgrades/maintenance etc for these two cars. All well and good, but what to name such a thread? Basically I’ve only come up with one: Love on the Spectrum - A Tale of Two Fords To explain the joke, we have the largest two door car Ford ever made, and the other one of the smallest four door cars. One a personal luxury coupe, the other a sporty utilitarian hatchback. One with a 460 (7.6L) carbureted V8 that runs lean to get 10 mpg downhill, the other with a turbo 1.6L that gets 42 mpg with the cruise control on. Etc etc etc … Anybody have any better dumb thread titles?
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Apr 22, 2023 15:27
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Dr. Lunchables posted:To explain the joke Gentle reminder that if you have to explain a joke it's not funny.
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Apr 22, 2023 16:14
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What color would you buy a new vehicle in if you knew you were going to be repainting it?
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Apr 22, 2023 17:00
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Dr. Lunchables posted:I can’t find a chat thread, so this seems as good a thread as any. Some time in the next few months I will be taking receipt of my late grandfathers 1977 Lincoln Continental Mark V. I also have a 2019 Ford Fiesta ST. I was gonna make a thread documenting updates/upgrades/maintenance etc for these two cars. Built Ford Rough
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Apr 22, 2023 17:13
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tactlessbastard posted:What color would you buy a new vehicle in if you knew you were going to be repainting it? Black is probably the best IMO, or at least it is if you're simply wrapping it so that the engine bay and door sills don't clash with the wrap. Not sure why the color matters if you're actually painting it though?
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Apr 22, 2023 17:15
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tactlessbastard posted:What color would you buy a new vehicle in if you knew you were going to be repainting it? The depends on what color you're repainting it to and whether you're doing a full engine bay and door jambs.
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Apr 22, 2023 17:16
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tactlessbastard posted:What color would you buy a new vehicle in if you knew you were going to be repainting it? Mopar Plum CalTrans Orange
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Apr 22, 2023 17:25
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Dr. Lunchables posted:I can’t find a chat thread, so this seems as good a thread as any. Some time in the next few months I will be taking receipt of my late grandfathers 1977 Lincoln Continental Mark V. I also have a 2019 Ford Fiesta ST. I was gonna make a thread documenting updates/upgrades/maintenance etc for these two cars. Pimp and hoe.
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Apr 22, 2023 17:44
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Motronic posted:The depends on what color you're repainting it to and whether you're doing a full engine bay and door jambs. Doorjams, yes, engine bay, nah. BRG would the new color.
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Apr 22, 2023 17:52
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