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Adenoid Dan posted:Electrification of cars is more misdirection than a solution. Here’s what is happening: https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2023/02/13/ford-taps-michigan-for-new-lfp-battery-plant--new-battery-chemis.html https://www.reuters.com/technology/us-treasury-secretary-visit-gm-jv-battery-plant-tennessee-2023-02-06/ https://pressroom.toyota.com/facility/toyota-battery-manufacturing-north-carolina-tbmnc/ https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/chrysler/2022/05/24/stellantis-samsung-ev-battery-plant-indiana/9909477002/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hyundai-sk-build-new-battery-plant-georgia-2022-12-08/ https://www.npr.org/2022/12/30/1145844885/2022-ev-battery-plants https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/05/map-which-states-will-build-the-most-ev-batteries-in-2030.html Basically all the auto manufacturers are building very large battery production plants in the United States. The timeline on these ranges from to be operating in months to within a year or two. I want to assure you this is not hypothetical. The physical logistics of the moving of the factories is happening right now. The consultancies model a drop in US oil consumption of 50% in a decade and like 75% by 2050. But you aren’t incorrect. This is still a massive amount of carbon in the building of the cars and batteries, roads, etc. I think the reason behind this is mostly geopolitical. The US has already transitioned to a net exporter of oil. Three years of that now. Think about what that change means internationally particularly in the context of what has happened with the war in Ukraine. It will be better than the status quo continuing emissions wise. But climate is definitely not the primary motivation. And before but there is only enough lithium for seven years. There are near lithium equivalents that don’t use lithium (or use less) already being mass produced particularly by CATL. It’s not just going to be autos. It’s going to be most freight too, excepting the marine and air modes. The larger context here is the IRA, there is correspondingly stunning amount of semiconductor manufacturing moving state side along with the import of already made batteries I mentioned earlier. I’ve never seen anything like it. I’m not arguing for it either, I’m trying to communicate that it is materially actually happening right now.
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Apr 22, 2023 21:58
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It is misdirection because the emission savings are nowhere near what we would get from mass transit, not because it isn't happening.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:21
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Adenoid Dan posted:It is misdirection because the emission savings are nowhere near what we would get from mass transit, not because it isn't happening. It's not misdirection because America is never going to move away from personal vehicles in favor of public transit. There are simply too many societal, cultural and geographic factors in play to prevent the type and scale of transition you seem to be advocating for.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:33
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:It's not misdirection because America is never going to move away from personal vehicles in favor of public transit. There are simply too many societal, cultural and geographic factors in play to prevent the type and scale of transition you seem to be advocating for. In that case there is no hope, because we aren't going to solve climate change by mass producing greenwashed consumer goods. I'd say humanity had a good run but we really didn't.
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Apr 22, 2023 22:41
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Zeta Taskforce posted:Yes, this it is likely that PhazonLink carries raw potatoes around with him and slaps packets of chips out of peoples hands. This is what everyone does who questions the logic of extracting vegetable matter from a variety of different sources and extruding it into something that looks like meat. This is the part where I say again that "highly processed" isn't a useful descriptor for foods. It doesn't reflect or mean anything, not about environmental impact nor about health. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 22, 2023 |
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Apr 22, 2023 23:01
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The most obvious solution imo would be investing in urbanization and providing federal incentives for cities to start building up rather than out. Ideally with great public transit system. Then you talk getting some high speed rail built along interstate routes and we're getting somewhere. I might as well wish for some sort of fey creature to come down and turn all the evil capitalists and polluters into shrubs.
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Apr 22, 2023 23:17
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Discendo Vox posted:This is the part where I say again that "highly processed" isn't a useful descriptor for foods. It doesn't reflect or mean anything, not about environmental impact nor about health. "Highly processed" is absolutely is a useful descriptor for foods. I don't see any correlation with environmental impact either, an apple grown and consumed locally has a low environmental impact, a blackberry grown in Chile and flown to the northern hemisphere during our winter is still a unprocessed fruit but it has a very high environmental impact. But food is more than the macronutrient ratio happens to be. I'm sorry, I don't want to sound new agey, but there is a correlation between how many ingredients something has and how healthy it is. The food industry loves to grind up corn, wheat, or soy into its constituent parts and recombine them into everything from sports drinks, granola bars, or fruit rollups. The raw ingredients are cheap, the end result is a shelf stable product that they can market the crap out of. Mixing in some fiber or sprinkling in a multivitamin doesn't change that, nor does changing the formulation to make it keto. No one is saying we can only eat raw kale, or that a handful of cheetos will kill you, but oatmeal (even with sugar added) will always be heather than Lucky Charms.
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Apr 23, 2023 00:08
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Pissing and moaning about a few billion on DAC seems just like the people that pissed and moaned at solar panel and wind farm research a few decades ago. And to be fair to those bemoaning solar in the 80's or whatever, solar panels and wind farms are still decades of research and investment from replacing dispatchable power for around the clock energy provision. The challenges facing solar and wind power were purely engineering and economic challenges. The problem facing DAC is fundamental to how chemistry works.
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Apr 23, 2023 00:21
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Professor Beetus posted:The most obvious solution imo would be investing in urbanization and providing federal incentives for cities to start building up rather than out. Ideally with great public transit system. Then you talk getting some high speed rail built along interstate routes and we're getting somewhere. yes its possibly the most textbook "making perfect the enemy of good" opinion a person can have right now, indicating they're a concern troll or just very very dim. you can have one neuron that thinks "trains good" and a second neuron that thinks "electricity is better than gasoline" and they can both co-exist, but only if you have room in your brain for two entire thoughts.
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Apr 23, 2023 00:55
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The only climate action we get is climate action that consists of buying new products with enormous upfront climate costs but sure, that's not misdirection. You're very clever for spotting that. Maybe we can get a means tested subsidy for people who commute in low income neighborhoods for five years after buying their car.
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Apr 23, 2023 01:11
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Zeta Taskforce posted:"Highly processed" is absolutely is a useful descriptor for foods. I don't see any correlation with environmental impact either, an apple grown and consumed locally has a low environmental impact, a blackberry grown in Chile and flown to the northern hemisphere during our winter is still a unprocessed fruit but it has a very high environmental impact. But food is more than the macronutrient ratio happens to be. I'm sorry, I don't want to sound new agey, but there is a correlation between how many ingredients something has and how healthy it is. The food industry loves to grind up corn, wheat, or soy into its constituent parts and recombine them into everything from sports drinks, granola bars, or fruit rollups. The raw ingredients are cheap, the end result is a shelf stable product that they can market the crap out of. Mixing in some fiber or sprinkling in a multivitamin doesn't change that, nor does changing the formulation to make it keto. No one is saying we can only eat raw kale, or that a handful of cheetos will kill you, but oatmeal (even with sugar added) will always be heather than Lucky Charms. Is a multivitamin unhealthy? Are all preservatives? Is raw sugar healthy? Is the number of ingredients the same thing as how "processed" something is? You're working backward from the conclusion you want to have. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 02:25
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Adenoid Dan posted:The only climate action we get is climate action that consists of buying new products with enormous upfront climate costs but sure, that's not misdirection. You're very clever for spotting that. I think I've spotted the actual problem: in your brain, public transport at the scale that can mostly replace personal vehicles does not carry enormous upfront climate costs.
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Apr 23, 2023 02:29
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I think I've spotted the actual problem: in your brain, public transport at the scale that can mostly replace personal vehicles does not carry enormous upfront climate costs. No? It's simply vastly more efficient. But the point isn't that electric cars are bad, it's that they're wildly insufficient but still presented as "doing something."
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Apr 23, 2023 02:42
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Evs are better than ICEs like yeah okay obvious, but the whole car-based society band-aid needs to be ripped off. It's unsustainable no matter how many ICEs are off the road.
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Apr 23, 2023 02:49
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ok eco-stalin lemme know when thats on the table
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Apr 23, 2023 03:09
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MightyBigMinus posted:ok eco-stalin lemme know when thats on the table What makes them "eco-stalin"?
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Apr 23, 2023 03:15
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MightyBigMinus posted:ok eco-stalin lemme know when thats on the table There's nothing that says any of the options we do have on the table have to be sufficient.
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Apr 23, 2023 03:28
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MightyBigMinus posted:ok eco-stalin lemme know when thats on the table I'm pretty certain that I said it's not coming to the table in my very first post. Unfortunately the impossibility of that option does not mean that the half-measures we are going to be able to implement will be sufficient. e: also lmao at me being "eco-stalin" for thinking that the US should transition away from cars as much as possible and actually spend money on infrastructure. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 03:35
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Professor Beetus posted:I'm pretty certain that I said it's not coming to the table in my very first post. Unfortunately the impossibility of that option does not mean that the half-measures we are going to be able to implement will be sufficient. half measures would be loving fantastic right now. 20Gt/yr would be a magnificent fantastic amazing improvement. people making GBS threads on half measures while jerking off about nonsense fantasy ideal options are just adult babies, incapable of deeper reasoning than KEYWORD GOOD, KEYWORD BAD. ME say KEYWORD is BAD, but YOU say I DUMB, so you must think keywords is GOOD, so YOU BAD <post> MightyBigMinus fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 03:47
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Prioritizing public transportation: a nonsense masturbatory fantasy.
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Apr 23, 2023 03:55
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Imagine a society less reliant on cars... Only history's greatest monster would want that.
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Apr 23, 2023 03:56
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IMHO cars have little to do with it beyond being a pretty good example of why I don't believe that we, as a government and as a people, are up to the task. The more fundamental bit for me is we keep pulling more oil out of the ground every year. It doesn't matter if we don't burn it here, it's not like anybody else is buying it to put it in the ground. How we replace every hydrocarbon joule of energy spent powering our personal automobiles with generated electricity while still maintaining the promised emissions reductions is a whole big other matter. My best guess is big diesel generators in their tens of thousands across the country going 24/7 to charge vehicles, and it gets the greenwashing treatment fracking got because it's better than the worst possible alternative if you squint. Eco-Stalinism claims are just a silly obfuscation because we're already in that territory by replacing ICE vehicles by government mandate. Get used to being on the other side of that accusation in a few years. I mostly just wish people could be more honest that they just like their multi-ton mobile living rooms and don't want to give them up instead of pathologizing people who dislike them or view them as a bald eagle shaped weight dragging us down into hell. Just the immediate cranking up to 10 of defensiveness like we saw from MightyBigMinus there. Getting mad that people aren't happy with half-measures that are definitionally insufficient is an odd position to stake out. Epic High Five fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 03:58
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MightyBigMinus posted:half measures would be loving fantastic right now. 20Gt/yr would be a magnificent fantastic amazing improvement. Yeah man doing the thing they do all over the world outside of the US is just an unimaginable insane pipe dream, we truly are exceptional. You sound like you should log off for a bit if this is how you respond to someone saying "drat, wish we could the thing that would actually provide the most good!"
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Apr 23, 2023 04:02
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Man, I'm as big of a climate doomer as anyone I know, and even I haven't bought the anti-EV propaganda hook, line and sinker like y'all seem to have. The EPA happens to have a nifty resource where they debunk many of the myths that have been peddled over the past couple of pages. Aside from that, it's worth noting that the source of all this anti-EV propaganda is... surprise surpise... the oil & gas industry and auto industry incumbents! https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/electric-vehicles-will-prevail-despite-oil-industry-misinformation.html https://cleantechnica.com/2021/01/15/some-last-ditch-efforts-to-discredit-electric-vehicles/ This one is a particularly good overview: https://electrek.co/2017/06/27/koch-brothers-electric-cars-fossil-fuels/ And also a good thread: https://twitter.com/AssaadRazzouk/status/1228260798440579072 To paraphrase Mark Twain, when you find your beliefs to have been manufactured by evil motherfuckers like the Koch brothers, it's time to pause and reflect. I hope you guys all do that!
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Apr 23, 2023 04:53
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:The EPA happens to have a nifty resource where they debunk many of the myths that have been peddled over the past couple of pages. Which of those myths have been spread here, specifically?
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Apr 23, 2023 05:16
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We could've had economical EVs decades ago but GM was more interested in leasing them to celebrities as a PR stunt and then literally mulching all but two of them before they perpetrated the gas guzzling SUV boom on Gen X & Z. Then Elon came along and continued the unhelpful trope that electric cars are only for people who can finance $50,000+. The only positive thing Elon ever did for the EV space was show that you actually *can* build an EV in a way that needs more than just a tire rotation every so often, so now car makers are moderately interested again.
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Apr 23, 2023 05:18
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:Man, I'm as big of a climate doomer as anyone I know, and even I haven't bought the anti-EV propaganda hook, line and sinker like y'all seem to have. I mean I'm not opposed to their existence and I know it's about as good as it's going to get in my lifetime. It's just sad to me that that's the reality.
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Apr 23, 2023 06:15
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If we can't or won't go full eco-socialist I'd settle for a little eco-Stalinism tbh
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Apr 23, 2023 10:11
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BIG HEADLINE posted:We could've had economical EVs decades ago but GM was more interested in leasing them to celebrities as a PR stunt and then literally mulching all but two of them before they perpetrated the gas guzzling SUV boom on Gen X & Z. While I'm sure that making everyone ride the tram is much better for the environment, it's just not happening politically. Like yeah you'd really have to send people to gulag before they'd give up their cars, not to mention massive redevelopment that would be necessary to make that at all possible. So IMO moving to EVs ASAP is a sensible approach. Carbon capture, on the other hand, imo makes no sense while we're still burning any amount of fossil fuels anywhere.
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Apr 23, 2023 10:42
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Potato Salad posted:The challenges facing solar and wind power were purely engineering and economic challenges. The problem facing DAC is fundamental to how chemistry works. What do you think biofuel is? Or do you think plants are grown in beds of fresh mined coal or something? Additionally, I read somewhere that Netherlands is the second largest exporter of food in the world by value. Mostly because of its massive electricity to food industry (including meat products). Basically, industrialized DAC with flora as the method. Again, I will re-iterate that burning coal to run chemical/mechanical DAC processes for sequestering is non-sensical, thermodynamics tells us why as a few posters have pointed out. But we still need caron in modern society and I don't think we will ever get away from industrial scale needs for it. DAC is not the first priority right now as reducing emissions is far more urgent and impactful. In time we will need to produce hydrocarbons somehow for as cheap as possible. A few cheeky tens of billions here or there a year is very much evidence that very little resources are being used towards that research as compared to emissions reductions.
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Apr 23, 2023 10:58
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Then Elon came along and continued the unhelpful trope that electric cars are only for people who can finance $50,000+. The only positive thing Elon ever did for the EV space was show that you actually *can* build an EV in a way that needs more than just a tire rotation every so often, so now car makers are moderately interested again. Elon, while I do not care for his antics and incredibly lucky at the same time given his family wealth, upbringing, etc. is a damned good engineer. Tesla was the first and only company to attempt making electric vehicles mainstream and it actually worked. Toyota, the largest automotive company in the world literally sold Telsa their own EV Technology portfolio because in their view with all of their brilliant engineers believed that EVs weren't feasible and we'd just be stuck driving hybrids for decades because the technology was that far behind in R&D. Of course, his cars do have issues along with his company but was has occurred is absolutely revolutionary and pretty freaking damned important given transportation is a quarter of emissions. As far as vehicles go - it'd not only be better for climate but for just ourselves if we completely re-designed to be walkable or the use simply just bicycles/e-bikes or public transportation. The thing is cities like Tokyo have still have car ownership despite being largely urban. And the cars we do have really need to be electric. Sooner than later. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 11:31 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 11:12
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Elon, while I do not care for his antics and incredibly lucky at the same time given his family wealth, upbringing, etc. is a damned good engineer. Elon Musk is not an engineer. He is an investor. A businessman. The actual engineers and coders who work at his companies are the people who are responsible for those companies' successes.
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Apr 23, 2023 12:50
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Epic High Five posted:How we replace every hydrocarbon joule of energy spent powering our personal automobiles with generated electricity while still maintaining the promised emissions reductions is a whole big other matter. My best guess is big diesel generators in their tens of thousands across the country going 24/7 to charge vehicles, and it gets the greenwashing treatment fracking got because it's better than the worst possible alternative if you squint.
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Apr 23, 2023 13:24
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These discussions about how effective certain methods are, and what's even worth it (what... matters?) kinda hinge on what you think is an acceptable result wrt damage to our planet, its climate and biosphere. It doesn't help that most of the articles and stories that hit your average news follower are traditionally rather credulous and optimistic. I'm no scientist, but I'm pretty sure "a portion of the way towards helping over the next x decades" on this timeline means we lost. This is no longer acceptable, to me. Half measures and baby steps while we cling to the ways that cause this are no longer better than nothing, they are nothing. Our ideas regarding progress and growth won't let us address this. We're not interested in preserving our world and future, we're interested in preserving our way of life, and doing so seems increasingly impossible, wrong even. Sure I'm vibes-ing. I am the vibes, randy. But it sheds a darkly humorous light on discussions like these. To paraphrase (and perhaps exaggerate) "You doomers need to be realistic/not let perfect be the enemy of good! We can't just stop using cars/fossil fuel/extracting consuming and creating waste on a scale the planet cannot possibly bear!" Well, you're right. I agree. And all the effort to find "solutions" within those parameters will literally not matter, because our world will literally fail. The collapse of the world we've build, a huge change in material reality, ideals, paradigms. Far more likely than the world coming together to live sustainably. We seem to be past that, and I don't feel optimistic we'll suddenly be better at global communal sustainability on an increasingly desperate chaotic uninhabitable planet. Until then, we can cry or laugh about having the knowledge and ability, but not the will, to even enact many of our half measures. I haven't given up, but I have no meaningful way to fight. I've accepted what should be unacceptable. And I have empathy for everybody bothering to give a poo poo about any of this, because I feel like I've held every position represented at one time or another. Now I'm just
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Apr 23, 2023 14:04
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you have the luxury of entitled perfectionist nihlism because you obviously dont have loved ones in the death zones and probably also simply don't think in numbers and therefore the concept of "fewer gigatons per year" is too abstract for you to base your opinions around
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Apr 23, 2023 14:16
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Queering Wheel posted:Elon Musk is not an engineer. He is an investor. A businessman. The actual engineers and coders who work at his companies are the people who are responsible for those companies' successes. He literally has a degree in physics and drives the direction of those companies. When his engineers run into tough issues it gets escalated to him and he has to make a decision. Some of those decisions have been good and others not so much. I get that he's a huge rear end in a top hat which is really sad because he's legitimately a talented dude and obviously his actions overshadow that but take a look at his interviews prior to ~2015. He definitely knows what he's talking about. Now, could some other engineer made EVs a commercial mainstream success? Maybe. Maybe not. Toyota didn't. GM didn't. VW didn't. There are plenty of others eccentric millionaires but they failed or simply didn't care. Musk ran into an opportunity with some luck, a lot of luck and some skill it worked out. Gucci Loafers fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 14:18
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MightyBigMinus posted:you have the luxury of entitled perfectionist nihlism because you obviously dont have loved ones in the death zones If your response to what I wrote is to assert that I both don't care and don't understand 1>0, you either need to read it again or you're messing with me (or assuming bad faith). *are the death zones not going to be death zones? Are the half measures we're willing to pursue in the interest of preserving our way of life (i.e the problem) going to meaningfully mitigate those death zones? The whole purpose of my post is understanding. We're all choosing to spend time informing ourselves and discussing this poo poo, somebody might not draw the same conclusion as you but I doubt anybody who bothers to read and post here doesn't care. Seeing somebody who indeed cares deeply become a ... "perfectionist nihilist" (I guess?) isn't their personal failing, it's indicative of the crushing tragedy we're watching unfold. BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 14:49
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BRJurgis posted:If your response to what I wrote is to assert that I both don't care and don't understand 1>0, you either need to read it again or you're messing with me (or assuming bad faith). Well define "meaningfully". You could argue it doesn't make a meaningful difference to cure 1 child of a given disease if 99 other children can't be cured. I would argue that anything that makes a positive difference is worth doing whether or not other, better options exist or it is meaningful or sufficient or adequate etc by whatever preferred arbitrary definition.
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Apr 23, 2023 15:16
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:He literally has a degree in physics and drives the direction of those companies. When his engineers run into tough issues it gets escalated to him and he has to make a decision. Some of those decisions have been good and others not so much. I get that he's a huge rear end in a top hat which is really sad because he's legitimately a talented dude and obviously his actions overshadow that but take a look at his interviews prior to ~2015. He definitely knows what he's talking about. You know he didn't start Tesla right....? He bought out the founders and as a part of the legally changed himself to be called a "founder" even though he didn't actually found the company.... EDIT: I have degrees in physics, maths, and mechanical engineering, that doesn't really mean poo poo. hooman fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 15:31
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didnt it come out recently that musk's degrees might be made up/lies?
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Apr 23, 2023 15:52
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