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And the easiest type of GBAD operator training (not maintenance) is "if you see something headed your way, it's bad, shoot it." The much, much harder mission is teaching operators and the air component to communicate and control well enough not to shoot at the aircraft doing intercepts or launching strikes or shooting at outgoing friendly ordnance.
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Apr 23, 2023 15:22
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HonorableTB posted:S tier: F-35 FTFY
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Apr 23, 2023 15:59
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Off topic, but I just love how the USAF wants to replace the CAS mission of the A-10 with the F-35. Seriously guys? How much does an A-10 cost vs the F-35?
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Apr 23, 2023 16:55
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The A-10 is awful. You'd be much better off with a high orbiting F-35 with PGMs The A-10 is slow. You'd be much better off with an F-35 that can scream in and hit targets exactly and then RTB to rearm. The A-10 is a sitting duck for both GBAD and CAP. You'd be much better off with something LO that can shoot back at enemy CAP
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Apr 23, 2023 16:58
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Cimber posted:Off topic, but I just love how the USAF wants to replace the CAS mission of the A-10 with the F-35. Seriously guys? How much does an A-10 cost vs the F-35? It costs about 42% as much to run an A-10 squadron for a year as it does to run an F-35 squadron for a year. A-10s are planned to remain in service into the 2030s. Multiple aircraft will hold the CAS mission; it is not a mission that belongs to any one aircraft. https://www.doctrine.af.mil/Portals/61/documents/AFDP_3-03/3-03-D04-CLFundamentals.pdf
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Apr 23, 2023 17:00
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Give Ukraine the F-117
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Apr 23, 2023 17:05
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Cimber posted:Off topic, but I just love how the USAF wants to replace the CAS mission of the A-10 with the F-35. Seriously guys? How much does an A-10 cost vs the F-35? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWfsz5R6irs
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Apr 23, 2023 17:07
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Vengarr posted:Give Ukraine the F-117 been sayin this
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Apr 23, 2023 17:08
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Cugel the Clever posted:LazerPig has some thoughts. And he's loving right too, the A-10 is dog poo poo, it only works in a perfectly permissive environment, and with the proliferation of shoulder based air defense systems that is never happening again. The only reason it worked in Afghanistan is for some reason the Taliban didn't have as many shoulder launchers as we did planes. If the environment is slightly contested the A-10 is a coffin. orange juche fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 17:23
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Give Ukraine the F-111, I was obsessed with it growing up and still love the stupid thing.
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Apr 23, 2023 17:26
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Pine Cone Jones posted:Give Ukraine the F-111, I was obsessed with it growing up and still love the stupid thing. In standing with the current state of the war, F-111s are heavily entrenched.
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Apr 23, 2023 17:37
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orange juche posted:And he's loving right too, the A-10 is dog poo poo, it only works in a perfectly permissive environment, and with the proliferation of shoulder based air defense systems that is never happening again. The only reason it worked in Afghanistan is for some reason the Taliban didn't have as many shoulder launchers as we did planes. I imagine an A-10 would be relegated to the same duties su-25s (frogfoots? Frogfeet?) are now. Lobbing unguided rockets at area targets “over there somewhere”.
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Apr 23, 2023 17:41
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Pine Cone Jones posted:Give Ukraine the F-111, I was obsessed with it growing up and still love the stupid thing. More air-to-air kills on fighter jets than the A-10.
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Apr 23, 2023 17:45
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Fewer Blue-on-Blue as well
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Apr 23, 2023 17:55
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My understanding is the A-10 is great if you're an army dude who needs support and can have a giant loitering gun-plane flying around sending the fear of god into insurgent forces via the a-10's gun compared to other fighters who have less ability to just stick around. Other than that it doesn't have much purpose on a modern battlefield and relies entirely on having an uncontested airspace.
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Apr 23, 2023 17:59
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ChaseSP posted:My understanding is the A-10 is great if you're an army dude who needs support and can have a giant loitering gun-plane flying around sending the fear of god into insurgent forces via the a-10's gun compared to other fighters who have less ability to just stick around. Other than that it doesn't have much purpose on a modern battlefield and relies entirely on having an uncontested airspace. Cugel the Clever posted:LazerPig has some thoughts. Says it as well as anyone could.
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Apr 23, 2023 18:02
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ChaseSP posted:My understanding is the A-10 is great if you're an army dude who needs support and can have a giant loitering gun-plane flying around sending the fear of god into insurgent forces via the a-10's gun compared to other fighters who have less ability to just stick around. Other than that it doesn't have much purpose on a modern battlefield and relies entirely on having an uncontested airspace. It's why I loved it when I was in...which was 30 years ago. Now, it is definitely obsolete and desperately needs to be replaced, but whatever replaces it needs to be piloted by people who actually understand how CAS works. The current A10 pilots do; they just need a better plane.
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Apr 23, 2023 18:44
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ChaseSP posted:My understanding is the A-10 is great if you're an army dude who needs support and can have a giant loitering gun-plane flying around sending the fear of god into insurgent forces via the a-10's gun compared to other fighters who have less ability to just stick around. Other than that it doesn't have much purpose on a modern battlefield and relies entirely on having an uncontested airspace. The BRRRRRRT announced itself for miles around, as opposed to drones dropping missiles that nobody knew about until the boom happened. You could probably get the same effect with a low-ish and fast swoop of any jet though, at least low enough to be heard/understood.
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Apr 23, 2023 19:01
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orange juche posted:And he's loving right too, the A-10 is dog poo poo, it only works in a perfectly permissive environment, and with the proliferation of shoulder based air defense systems that is never happening again. The only reason it worked in Afghanistan is for some reason the Taliban didn't have as many shoulder launchers as we did planes. But it's so loving cool
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Apr 23, 2023 19:11
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Is there any reason not to give Ukraine a bunch of retired F-117s? It would at least force Russian air defenses to be more creative.
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Apr 23, 2023 19:15
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anyone who likes the a-10 because it makes a cool noise is dumber than the loving nazis, because even they eventually realized jericho trumpets on the ju 87 was dumb.
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Apr 23, 2023 19:21
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the a-10 gun run is a glorified USO performance. might as well put speakers on it and play toby keith at the same time edit: I'm sure the air frame itself isn't bad, but the gun is dumb as hell. To get the correct angle of attack for its stupid 30mm gun means you have to do the absolute dumbest approach possible. PookBear fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 19:23
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:But it's so loving cool 
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Apr 23, 2023 19:24
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Is there any reason not to give Ukraine a bunch of retired F-117s? It would at least force Russian air defenses to be more creative. Because we are still ummm using them. https://www.businessinsider.com/us-air-force-retired-f117-stealth-jet-made-another-appearance-2022-5 Flikken fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 19:27
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PookBear posted:the a-10 gun run is a glorified USO performance. might as well put speakers on it and play toby keith at the same time Lmao. Top post.
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Apr 23, 2023 19:29
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Flikken posted:Because we are still ummm using them. According to Wikipedia only for training since 2008? It seems like we've spent the last decade scuttling most of the remaining ones. Russia's presumably had access to one since at least 1999, it doesn't seem like a big risk to donate the ones headed for the scrapyard? AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Apr 23, 2023 |
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Apr 23, 2023 19:29
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:According to Wikipedia only for training since 2008? It seems like we've spent the last decade scuttling most of the remaining ones. I mean classified stealth issues aside what would be the point? They can only deliver 2 bombs a piece, require very specific handling to maintain their stealthiness. And would require very expensive and probably hard to produce spares. ATACMS would be a better option
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Apr 23, 2023 19:44
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I liked in the Ace Combat games when you could dog fight F22s with an A-10 without much difficulty.
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Apr 23, 2023 19:56
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PookBear posted:anyone who likes the a-10 because it makes a cool noise is dumber than the loving nazis, because even they eventually realized jericho trumpets on the ju 87 was dumb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87 "as well as providing Stuka pilots with audible feedback as to speed." Seems pretty loving useful pre-computer age. However just like the A10 it was outdated for WW2 after like 1942. lol and replaced with the Fw190 just like the F35 should replace the A10. Nice.
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Apr 23, 2023 20:02
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A good place to start with flying things is probably Blackhawks. Ukraine have already managed to get their hands on a civilian one and seem to rather like it.
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Apr 23, 2023 20:02
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:Is there any reason not to give Ukraine a bunch of retired F-117s? It would at least force Russian air defenses to be more creative. They're not very capable, they've been largely mothballed forever apart from 1-2 they use for testing, and we don't want to give the Russians the chance to peek through the wreckage of even 2 generations' ago of our stealth technology. Yes, I know about the one shot down over Serbia. Yes, the Russians learned some things from it. No, they didn't learn everything they could have with more airframe corpses to compare.
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Apr 23, 2023 20:02
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In Ukraine news... https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1650085240113692673 Word is that the Ukrainians have crossed the Dnieper and pushed back the Russian forces on the east bank past another, smaller, river across a pretty wide front.
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Apr 23, 2023 20:11
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PurpleXVI posted:In Ukraine news... slava ukraini
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Apr 23, 2023 20:19
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The A-10 reminds me of my qualms with the Soviet T-series tanks, and it comes down to the phrase: "It was designed around the <piece of technology>." When it comes to the A-10, it could be useful as a light or medium bomber, since most of our bombers are huge and were built with the idea of dropping nukes. The problem is that it has that rotary cannon, which has never been shown to be useful for anything more than war crimes, friendly fire, and at best psychological intimidation. The A-10 could be a decent ground attack plane or CAS plane to just have in the inventory when you need to sling missiles or rockets in an air dominance situation, but it's seriously hampered by only having one crewman and it being so built around its gun that you can't really do a proper modern overhaul that gets rid of the cannon without seeing a whole new plane as an alternative. (I mainly worked in armored ground vehicles, so someone please please tell me how wrong I am so I don't sound like an idiot). Same goes for the T-series. Most of the reports that I got to see all said the same thing: "The design is too limited to do much more than external upgrades and very limited amounts of internal technological upgrades." Two reports from two different countries even mentioned not having enough room to make the seating more comfortable. The problem is that the T-64 was designed around the autoloader, to the detriment of just about any possibility of modern upgrades. Everyone always talks about how small of a target the T-series tanks are, and while that's true, it's a massively limiting factor. The small silhouette creates a low ceiling on crew operation, a low ceiling on thermals/FCS and the ability to power them, and a ceiling on mechanicalupgrades. Nearly every wishlist upgrade program from Russia/USSR I got to read about mentioned wanting to elongate the hull and add an extra roadwheel to the T-55, T-64, and T-72 so that they could meaningfully upgrade any of the tanks in the future. When it comes to the American ground vehicles, there's always enough room for new optics, power supplies, safety features, external kit, engine/mechanical upgrades. Usually, the only limits come in terms of weight when it comes to rail/air transport. I'm told that the Leopard 2 used to be that way, but that it's recently run into design limitations.
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Apr 23, 2023 20:51
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Icon Of Sin posted:The BRRRRRRT announced itself for miles around, as opposed to drones dropping missiles that nobody knew about until the boom happened. going by more recent footage whatever ukraine is dropping make some sound because they're scrambling not long after release. dunno if it it's that they're flying higher so the sound has longer or a change in what is dropped.
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Apr 23, 2023 21:06
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PurpleXVI posted:In Ukraine news... Handily enough there's a 360 degree image from a drone on Google Maps of that area. I don't think there will be any substantial assaults through that marsh
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Apr 23, 2023 21:56
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To back up for a sec, planechat started because of this:pmchem posted:https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1649246577205350400?s=20 Given that basically everyone agrees that ground-based antiair is more important and more cost effective, I wonder why their Twitter is asking for planes. Misdirection, maybe? Like the whole "Javelins are winning the war for us, they're amazing" thing when it's actually mostly artillery, with a lot of Javelin footage having been saved up from the initial successes and then trickled out over a longer time period.
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Apr 23, 2023 22:52
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Planes are useful, but take a long time to introduce, and also represent a very substantial commitment. You dont give them planes and then give up on them
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Apr 23, 2023 22:58
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Ukraine suggests that the future of CAS is an off-the-shelf quadcopter dropping a grenade.
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Apr 23, 2023 23:00
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The A-10 should be replaced by drones tbh. Why put pilot lives at risk when we have proven tech that works well.
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Apr 23, 2023 23:03
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