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King of the Hill got bad when they switched showrunners and made Bobby a failson, had Luanne drop out of college and get engaged to Lucky and made Hank the only sane man in the family, which iirc all started around season 7
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Apr 21, 2023 16:10
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Pretty much everything I get from King of the Hill is that Lucky is absolutely where it goes downhill. Kinda ironic but then again maybe says something that they introduced/altered characters to be specifically stereotypical rednecks/white trash in a show that was already about suburban Southerners and variously mocking, subverting, and otherwise playing with the stereotypes about them and their worldviews. Actually reminds me of semi-related show Daria, where while it's otherwise solid with characterisation, Jake acts a little bit too much like a Simpsons character compared to the more relatively grounded cast, while Tom on the other end is a little too normal and lacking notable flaws. They're not big drags on the show (and the episode where Jake joins a dotcom startup is terrifyingly still relevant. Also, ironically the bit where Jake and Tom actually interact is gold) but it does stand out as jarring.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:39
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King of the Hill only has a temporary dip in Season 12. They recovered in Season 13. And one bad season in 13 is a crazy hit rate. It's impossible to keep something good for that long.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:44
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King of the Hill never got consistently bad, but the later seasons are definitely mostly "mid" with some really awful ones in the mix. On a slow binge I did recently, season 8 was about the point where the show began to feel low effort and by-the-numbers. Hank also stopped being fallible and many episodes were him vs. liberal strawman, as opposed to earlier seasons where he and the person of conflict would reach a mutual understanding.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:47
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Even the lesser seasons of King of the Hill still produce a few all-timer episodes, like Bobby going to clown college. Very different vibe than Homer going to clown college, but still great! The bad Simpsons seasons settle for having a few watchable episodes.
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Apr 21, 2023 16:52
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Bobby went to Princeton?
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Apr 21, 2023 16:53
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The funny things is that the entirety of King of the Hill is supposed to take place within 2 years. They kind of have an offhand comment like 'this was a crazy 2 years' or something like that.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:01
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Tarkus posted:The funny things is that the entirety of King of the Hill is supposed to take place within 2 years. They kind of have an offhand comment like 'this was a crazy 2 years' or something like that. This is definitely one advantage to an animated sitcom format. See abovementioned Daria.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:10
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The thing which gets me the most with King of the Hill in the later seasons is how badly they do Bobby. In the first half of the show most of the conflict between him and Hank comes from him just not conforming to Hank's idea of masculinity and his interests usually being pretty valid hobbies or whatever that are just a little weird, then in the latter half he usually is just a little sissy fruitcake who gets into the dumbest things imaginable and Hank is completely justified in trying to shut them down, it's like everyone gets reverse character development
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Apr 21, 2023 17:15
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I watched King of the Hill this year for the first time, actually, and I was blown away by how good it is. I did however, stall out around season 8. The show definitely feels weaker and wackier. Peggy started out sane in season 1 and 2 and is a verifiable insane awful person by 8. As much as the show is wacky, Hank will always be second to Captain Wacky (later renamed Homer).
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Apr 21, 2023 17:32
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Boy, I tell ya hwat.
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Apr 21, 2023 17:46
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No Dignity posted:The thing which gets me the most with King of the Hill in the later seasons is how badly they do Bobby. In the first half of the show most of the conflict between him and Hank comes from him just not conforming to Hank's idea of masculinity and his interests usually being pretty valid hobbies or whatever that are just a little weird, then in the latter half he usually is just a little sissy fruitcake who gets into the dumbest things imaginable and Hank is completely justified in trying to shut them down, it's like everyone gets reverse character development Eh, in the first season Bobby gets into plus sized modeling ("Hank was right to shut this down" is that episode's explicitly stated ending), smoking, making out with a plastic head, and being entrained by ants.
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Apr 22, 2023 00:25
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty much everything I get from King of the Hill is that Lucky is absolutely where it goes downhill. For sure, Lucky appearing twice a season would have been fine but he did not need to be a main character and throwing out Luanne’s character development was the show’s worst move. The ep where she moves out and figures out how to run a household and earns Hanks respect is excellent, plus there was the one with the trailer tipping over where she’s clearly horrified by the idea of going back to being trailer trash. Yeah forget all that she’s marrying a good for nothing dullard two decades older and losing most of her intelligence for bad late season plots.
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Apr 22, 2023 04:49
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king of the hill was one of the most pleasantly surprising shows for me i avoided it for the longest time because it reminded me way too much of beavis and butthead, which i never liked. back when i was in my drifter days, i stayed at this apartment that had only antenna t.v. and no internet, so my entertainment options were limited. king of the hill was the best show that aired during its timeslot, and beggars can't be choosey, so i took what i could. initially i left it on as background noise, but the more i saw it, the more i found myself liking it. it was far different than what i had imagined and i found myself laughing way more expected at the surprisingly clever writing, and found the characters charming and likable. of course, i haven't seen an episode since 2009 so.. can't really say much about it. also, i never would have assumed it would go on to last as long as it did 
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Apr 22, 2023 05:29
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Mr Interweb posted:i thought s8 was pretty flawless too until i went back and looked at what episodes were involved in s8 and there's quite a few that i personally wasn't that big a fan of: Season 8 is where a lot of issues that have plagued later seasons first start appearing, and a lot of episodes relied on some sort of gimmicky concept - "let's put the Simpsons into this new setting! (e.g., the Military School episode) Let's see them play off of this one-off character!" (Shary Bobbins or Frank Grimes) That sort of thing. Still, a lot of those episodes hold up based, or at the very least are carried to the level of "not being actively poo poo" on the strength of the jokes and gags.
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Apr 22, 2023 05:51
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The military school episode is interesting since it at least explores the premise a bit, with the school as an institution and a stereotype adjusting to modern times with Lisa's whole arc and the death course due to be phased out. Also the 'You've been to public school' joke at the firing range, wowee you can tell this is pre-Columbine.
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Apr 22, 2023 05:57
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I think Season 8 and 9 are more hit and miss, with the former having more hits and the latter having more misses, but there's still a lot of good episodes in them. When I did a rewatch the Season 10 drop felt more noticeable than anything else. It starts bad and doesn't get better.
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Apr 22, 2023 06:22
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Actually reminds me of semi-related show Daria, where while it's otherwise solid with characterisation, Jake acts a little bit too much like a Simpsons character compared to the more relatively grounded cast, while Tom on the other end is a little too normal and lacking notable flaws. They're not big drags on the show (and the episode where Jake joins a dotcom startup is terrifyingly still relevant. Also, ironically the bit where Jake and Tom actually interact is gold) but it does stand out as jarring. You're spot-on about Jake (he's ... a lot) but after a recent rewatch of the series I can tell you Tom absolutely loving sucks, just in ways that aren't overt and that read differently back in the early 2000s. The classism just kinda flies off of him. You're still right, though, because even for as garbage as he is it's done way more subtly and thus it sticks out on a show where characterization wasn't particularly nuanced.
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Apr 22, 2023 09:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty much everything I get from King of the Hill is that Lucky is absolutely where it goes downhill. Outlandish as he was, Jake was easily my favorite character on Daria. Just a comically troubled man.
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Apr 22, 2023 13:23
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The Moon Monster posted:Eh, in the first season Bobby gets into plus sized modeling ("Hank was right to shut this down" is that episode's explicitly stated ending), smoking, making out with a plastic head, and being entrained by ants. Okay slight correction: yeah Bobby is a weirdo failson in season 1 but from seasons 2-7 his conflicts with Hank are usually pretty nuanced and more about Hank's own hangups. In the latter half of the show it just loses alot of that humanistic character writing and veers Bobby way back into the failson direction
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Apr 22, 2023 13:35
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Zeniel posted:Outlandish as he was, Jake was easily my favorite character on Daria. Just a comically troubled man. Daria’s parents were absolutely the highlight of the show for me. Even when I was sick of the teens, I stuck around for them.
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Apr 22, 2023 20:59
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I think Daria was onto something about how Jake plays up his issues to get attention. Though kinda funny given how repressed 90s masculinity was, Jake is at least open about his feelings good and bad. Same with Mr DeMartino actually, no wonder they get along. Kinda funny that the girls actually do seem to like him, I get the feeling they respect that he's both pretty open and honest and ready to admit when he's got things wrong. (Even though he gets stuck on his train of thought a bit) Especially given how much of the show is about teenagers dealing with adults who think they know better about literally everything despite all evidence to the contrary.
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Apr 23, 2023 04:31
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Jake's got all the repression and extraordinary emotional damage of the Boomer generation without the hard dive into overt racism and fascism that the 2000s brought his particular age group. He's a wreck of a human being but his heart's in the right place and that's enough. Daria and Quinn feel sorry for him, more than anything else, which — combined with that tendency most kids and teens have to get along better with the parent of the opposite sex — means their relationship with him is pleasant. Helen's relationship with the kids is way, way more layered and interesting, from the fact that Helen's a deeply flawed human in her own right to the fact that her children resemble/remind her of her sisters more than herself.
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Apr 23, 2023 19:14
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Master Twig posted:I say seasons 9 and 10 were terrible. 8 is when the cracks began showing. season 9 had Homer Simpson vs the City of New York, Lisa's Sax, and The Cartridge Family. That back end though, woof. 10's only good episode was Behind the Laughter, and it don't count.
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Apr 24, 2023 03:40
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:season 9 had Homer Simpson vs the City of New York, Lisa's Sax, and The Cartridge Family. That back end though, woof. 10's only good episode was Behind the Laughter, and it don't count. Behind the Laughter was actually the finale of season 11. It's also my headcanon series finale for the show.
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Apr 24, 2023 04:18
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what about trilogy of error
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Apr 24, 2023 04:30
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homewrecker posted:Behind the Laughter was actually the finale of season 11. It's also my headcanon series finale for the show. To bring this around to the KotH discussion, season 11 of that show also has the "true" ending to a lot of fans, Lucky and Luannes wedding. It brings back characters all the way back from the beginning and even has a cut scene that really helps wrap things up.
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Apr 24, 2023 04:59
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BoosterDuck posted:what about trilogy of error Homer Simpson vs the City of New York is the last great episode Trilogy of Error is the last good episode
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Apr 24, 2023 05:24
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gently caress you Trilogy of Error was great.
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Apr 24, 2023 06:29
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Bart the Mother has Phil Hartman’s last appearance, concluding the series run as no reason to continue.
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Apr 24, 2023 06:32
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Toaster Beef posted:Jake's got all the repression and extraordinary emotional damage of the Boomer generation without the hard dive into overt racism and fascism that the 2000s brought his particular age group. He's a wreck of a human being but his heart's in the right place and that's enough. Daria and Quinn feel sorry for him, more than anything else, which — combined with that tendency most kids and teens have to get along better with the parent of the opposite sex — means their relationship with him is pleasant. Helen's relationship with the kids is way, way more layered and interesting, from the fact that Helen's a deeply flawed human in her own right to the fact that her children resemble/remind her of her sisters more than herself. Pretty much all boomers will claim they used to be hippies in an attempt to not seem like TOTAL squares, but Helen and Jake actually having been hippies who went full-on yuppie (though pretty much every flashback suggests their personalities and ideals haven't really changed) gives them a pretty useful flexibility. The rivalry between the girls gets interesting even as it continues into the last season til they see how Helen and her sisters are all the time- and I think pretty clearly have a bit of a moment of shock when they realise what it looks like to still act like bickering teenagers well past the age where it's not funny anymore, and what they could end up like if they don't at least try to find some common ground. You really can't blame Jake for just getting the gently caress out of there.
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Apr 24, 2023 06:36
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I feel like by the time we get to the final seasons, the rivalry between Daria and Quinn is mostly just coasting on the momentum of the previous 14+ years. They respect each other by then: Daria has learned Quinn is much smarter and more competent than she projects — and the things she cares about, while they could be considered superficial, are difficult and valid in their own right — while Quinn comes to better understand that Daria isn't an uncaring robot so much as a very sensitive person who just looks at and processes the world in a different way. Daria's baby steps toward a more normal teenage life in the form of Tom help a bit on that front, too. You're right that the chaos between Helen, Amy, and Rita makes it crystal clear to Daria and Quinn they can't let their childhood and teenage rifts become adult disconnect, but I feel as though they were moving in that direction anyway. They're just more well-adjusted people. For all Helen and Jake's flaws, their daughters turn out just fine.
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Apr 24, 2023 11:35
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That is all true. And I think ties into how Helen does actually recognise it's her mother to blame for how dysfunctional she is with her sisters, and I think has been making a point of trying to break that cycle and avoid favouritism or double standards, even though her daughters are such outwardly different people. Still funny that Quinn actually makes a point of trying to spend more time with Daria and finding something that they can both enjoy or at least tolerate. Funny thing is I think Daria and Quinn's little improv actually works for scaring all three of them straight- not only showing how ridiculous they look from the inside but that the cycle could very well repeat in the same disastrous way if the next generation follows their example. It's not followed up on much, but there is a phone call in a later episode (possibly Boxing Daria) where Helen's genuinely making an effort to get along and have friendly conversation with her sister without any further passive-aggressive bickering. It makes for good comedy but it's not the way that any real people should act with someone they supposedly want to have a functional relationship with. Actually, put that way... Jake is very mood-swingy and prone to getting into rants but also actually very sensitive, and might be where Daria gets it from. There's even that running gag where he joins in raging at whatever seems to be annoying other characters, even if he doesn't quite understand it. I think that's actually meant to be one of his better traits and why he gets along well enough with his family- he can seem like a bit of a pushover, but he's also quite quick to simply own up and try to make amends when he's done something wrong. Compared to the other dad archetypes both in sitcom and unfortunately irl whose first instinct is to dig in their heels and double down...
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Apr 24, 2023 11:59
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Jake's definitely where Daria gets her sensitivity from, yeah. And they explore that a bit, but I dunno if it's ever done very effectively. The episode where they go on a business trip together had some nice moments but was mostly a swing and a miss. But by and large the family's treatment of him comes back to what we've both been saying, where his heart's in the right place and they all know he cares a ton about them even if he's an emotionally unstable sort broken by his upbringing. Like, it's interesting that he spends the entire series talking about how he doesn't want to gently caress up with Daria and Quinn like his father hosed up with him while, as you pointed out, it took Helen as long as it did to realize the damage her mother wrought. I've never been a fan of Jake; he's definitely my least favorite of the main characters. There's a lot of interesting poo poo there, though.
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Apr 24, 2023 12:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Pretty much all boomers will claim they used to be hippies in an attempt to not seem like TOTAL squares, but Helen and Jake actually having been hippies who went full-on yuppie (though pretty much every flashback suggests their personalities and ideals haven't really changed) gives them a pretty useful flexibility.
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Apr 24, 2023 17:38
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Keromaru5 posted:I read an article recently that pointed out that while 60s rock was embracing peace anthems, and didn't really start to get seriously anti-war until the 70s, there was also a wave of highly successful "support the troops!" country anthems at the same time. And it was by and large the same people listening to both. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_the_Green_Berets Five weeks at the top of the charts in 1966 - to tie it back to the Simpsons, Homer actually has a copy of it, as seen when John Waters' character is leafing through their album collection.
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Apr 25, 2023 02:51
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A long time ago I posted something from an article or a wiki about "Where the the Daria characters end up?" and it felt sort of opposite of where the closing credits futures for the characters hinted they'd end up. I know there's supposed to be a Jodie spin-off at some point that's been in production/development for the last few years, but the article I was thinking of was here: https://ew.com/tv/daria-20-years-later/ I'm sort of really 'meh' on this updated designs and ideas for where the showrunners imagined the characters would end up.
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Apr 25, 2023 08:09
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Regarding the occasional mourning of the loss of Phil Hartman: would he have been a better Zap Brannigan and made Futurama better than it was? Billy West did a really great job so I’m not sure Hartman was as missed on Futurama and he clearly was on the Simpsons.
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Apr 25, 2023 09:32
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I only ever watched the first season or two of Daria but as a B&BH fan my idea was that the middle aged Beavis we see in the new seasons is living off of alimony payments he somehow finagled in the divorce proceedings with Daria, following a short and unsuccessful marriage.
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Apr 25, 2023 09:33
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JediTalentAgent posted:A long time ago I posted something from an article or a wiki about "Where the the Daria characters end up?" and it felt sort of opposite of where the closing credits futures for the characters hinted they'd end up. I don't necessarily love where everybody 'ended up' in that article, but I do love the designs. I'm biased, though, because I adore Karen Disher. I got to interview her and she was lovely and funny and super informative about how the show and its episodes came together. I don't think there's any sort of modern update to these folks that would feel quite right, really, because they're trapped in amber, but I always felt like these were honest to what the show was. I do like that they're sticking to their guns on Quinn having like four kids.
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Apr 25, 2023 09:52
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