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Well the russian invasion had some positives at least in that it made people aware of how much power they where wasting, we slashed 3800 kWh off our yearly electricity usage through a variety of means.
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Apr 24, 2023 09:02
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MightyBigMinus posted:so the person who says "we need to completely replace all ICE cars with EVs at a bare minimum" and the person who says "that'll barely matter" are both right. Transport also involves extraction, refinement, transportation of fuel, etc. It's probably a little higher than 11%. If anything, I'm more interested in how the hell you electrify heavy machinery like diesel dump trucks, snowplows, backhoes, bulldozers, etc. That is going to be incredibly difficult.
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Apr 24, 2023 09:16
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Transport also involves extraction, refinement, transportation of fuel, etc. It's probably a little higher than 11%. If anything, I'm more interested in how the hell you electrify heavy machinery like diesel dump trucks, snowplows, backhoes, bulldozers, etc. That is going to be incredibly difficult.  There are going to be some sectors that are difficult like that or aviation but a) they're relatively small and b) can be switched to synthetic fuels once we get to that point.
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Apr 24, 2023 09:29
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Transport also involves extraction, refinement, transportation of fuel, etc. It's probably a little higher than 11%. If anything, I'm more interested in how the hell you electrify heavy machinery like diesel dump trucks, snowplows, backhoes, bulldozers, etc. That is going to be incredibly difficult. If it's operating either within a city or on a farm where the route is predictable, relatively easily using overhead lines. Some buses are already powered by overhead lines like electric trolleys used to be. Even some heavy mining trucks are being used in this way.
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Apr 24, 2023 09:36
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Adenoid Dan posted:If it's operating either within a city or on a farm where the route is predictable, relatively easily using overhead lines. This is super interesting... do you have a link to this?
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Apr 24, 2023 10:41
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:If anything, I'm more interested in how the hell you electrify heavy machinery like diesel dump trucks, snowplows, backhoes, bulldozers, etc. That is going to be incredibly difficult. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4OAiyAEGus so has the management of JCB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxtxZY45RMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRXT3832YBI
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Apr 24, 2023 13:05
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also Maersk just bought its first methanol powered container ship https://www.offshore-energy.biz/milestone-maersk-launches-methanol-powered-feeder-in-bold-move-toward-carbon-neutrality/ quote:The vessel is at the core of Maersk’s decarbonization strategy as the company sets sights on becoming net-zero by 2040.
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Apr 24, 2023 13:11
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Leon Sumbitches posted:Isn't energy use in buildings higher? This is why electrification of the building sector is being looked at by a lot of people right now, including cap and invest for building emissions from fossil fuels, and replacement with heat pumps. As we have energy standards that increase the percentage of non-fossil energy generation you'll see a decline in building emissions. It will be a challenge for grids because in cold climates they will probably shift from summer peaking to winter peaking, and with a lot of environmental efforts carries a huge issue of equity since retrofit to heat pumps isn't cheap, but luckily the IRA has some pretty big incentives for heat pumps.
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Apr 24, 2023 13:22
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:This is super interesting... do you have a link to this? Just look up trolly assisted haul/dump trucks. Been around for a very long time, South Africa used them a lot historically. Generally requires very large, deep mines that don't have cut-backs in the plan and are near grid power. In-pit crushing and (high angle) conveying is another method for electrifying the haulage but for most pits, electrification doesn't justify the huge capital costs relative to truck haulage.
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Apr 24, 2023 16:51
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That is some freaking insanely cool stuff and I could see hydrogen working for heavy machinery but goddamn I wonder how they make it all work. It's not going to be an easy problem to solve and I can't image it'll be cheap.
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Apr 24, 2023 17:34
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MightyBigMinus posted:the ceo of Cummins has already bet the company's future on hydrogen: Why not just run the diesels on Natural Gas, since 95% of the hydrogen being used to fuel vehicles is coming from fracked methane.
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Apr 24, 2023 18:41
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Adenoid Dan posted:And replacing all cars with public transit was never even suggested in this thread. Obviously that is not going to happen. It is totally reasonable to prioritize the lowest hanging fruit instead of telling people they can buy their way out of climate change. I have read that eBikes have made a greater contribution to carbon reduction that electric cars.
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Apr 24, 2023 18:45
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Zeta Taskforce posted:All the wishing that people should be walking, biking, taking public transportation everywhere is well meaning, the fact is that the with the places that people already live, the places they work and the infrastructure that connects places that people need to get to means that mass adoption of EVs is about the only thing that can happen on a time scale that matters. I beg you to spend some time in Europe
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Apr 24, 2023 18:50
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Vitamin Me posted:I beg you to spend some time in Europe Or Japan. Or even NYC.
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Apr 24, 2023 19:07
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I think you're missing this part of the post: quote:with the places that people already live, the places they work and the infrastructure that connects places that people need to get to Suburban sprawl is certainly a horror show but you're not turning it all into walkable 15-mintue cities that would be required without a magic wand. E: It'll be a high mountain to climb though because apparently "you're a negligent parent if you don't drive you children to soccer practice in your SUV" is a popular sentiment  
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Apr 24, 2023 19:20
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Vitamin Me posted:I beg you to spend some time in Europe I would beg everyone here to simply look at the political and legal challenge required to transform any city to be largely walkable. Even outside North America.
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Apr 24, 2023 19:46
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mobby_6kl posted:I think you're missing this part of the post: Meanwhile at schools around me (San Diego county):    Of course we now have "Heck's Angels" and all the Karen's bitching on NextDoor about those darn kids on eBikes. 
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Apr 24, 2023 20:42
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San Diego has a year round perfect climate, a good economy and an effective local government. I'm not surprised they've got ebikes.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:46
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I think there was a pretty successful experiment that gave away free ebikes to people who wanted them, but I don't remember the details.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:51
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I might be in the minority and there certainly some risk but I think the rentable scooters in DTLA through Bird, Lyft and Uber are fantastic. They even have separate bike/scooter lanes in some parts.
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Apr 24, 2023 20:56
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I might be in the minority and there certainly some risk but I think the rentable scooters in DTLA through Bird, Lyft and Uber are fantastic. They even have separate bike/scooter lanes in some parts.
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Apr 24, 2023 21:00
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VideoGameVet posted:Why not just run the diesels on Natural Gas, since 95% of the hydrogen being used to fuel vehicles is coming from fracked methane. literally arguing for fossil fuels rather than learning something try watching the videos, you may be SHOCKED to find out you're not the only person that considered that
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Apr 25, 2023 00:08
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MightyBigMinus posted:literally arguing for fossil fuels rather than learning something My point is, if you're using hydrogen to run a vehicle, you're actually consuming natural gas. It's greenwashing. If they can run mining trucks with batteries, I don't see why you would run something less efficient without regen.
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Apr 25, 2023 04:44
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Is hydrogen better then biofuel? All the buses in my town are now biofuel. EV buses still have issues as they need to run all day. And while I'm sure it's better than diesel/petrol I've not actually looked into how much better.
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Apr 25, 2023 09:00
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There's an issue with hydrogen generated from fossil fuels however it can be generated from renewables sources.
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Apr 25, 2023 09:19
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VideoGameVet posted:My point is, if you're using hydrogen to run a vehicle, you're actually consuming natural gas. It's greenwashing. your point is dumb and wrong, which again, if you'd bother to click play on a short youtube you might learn something. this is a really great encapsulation of the meta/social aspect of the problem though. people want to be poo poo talking know it all contrarians 10x more than they want to know what they're actually talking about. even when someones gone out of their way to give detailed presentations, film them, edit them, present them to you via easy distribution, and make it so that all you have to do to is stop whining for a few minutes and learn something... nah gently caress that POST SPIT TAKE FEEL GOOD. like you don't need to go do research, you don't need to evaluate supply chains of private companies, you don't need to read academic papers or government reports. you just need to turn down your shithead new-information-deflection-shield and let the new information come to you. MightyBigMinus fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 13:14
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https://twitter.com/RARohde/status/1650648421458477061?t=lvACBLq8LndBOCVhbm0tYg&s=19 Jump in. The waters fine
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Apr 25, 2023 13:30
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Failed Imagineer posted:https://twitter.com/RARohde/status/1650648421458477061?t=lvACBLq8LndBOCVhbm0tYg&s=19 Be sure to wear your head-to-toe wetsuit to guard yourself from the trillions of jellyfish, though.
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Apr 25, 2023 15:43
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You posted 95 minutes of YouTube videos. I watch most things on 2x speed so 45 minutes. Most people do not have 45 minutes to read a single techno optimist post. Building a few demonstration vehicles and talking about how their future is renewable based on that is pretty much the definition of greenwashing. The vast majority of hydrogen comes from fossil sources, and when it is coming from electrolysis it requires large amounts of energy, which for now are not mostly coming from renewable sources. It is greenwashing. Edit: typo Edit 2: here is a 20 min video from a science YouTuber on hydrogen vehicles, if anyone is interested in a short overview of the issues with the technology. Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 15:53
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yes the stanford precourt institute and the chairman and ceo of cummins on one hand and nordvpn sponsored content on the other, hmmmm for anyone who is rightly curious but also reasonably does not care enough to watch the vids, the short answer is simple: the electrolyzer market was already growing dramatically, mostly via chinese state investment (just like with solar) and EU incentive packages (just like with wind), and then bidens IRA came along and dumped a fucktruck load of money into it, so now the electrolyzer market is exploding. china is mostly betting on older alkaline tech, us and eu companies are betting on mostly PEM tech. billions of dollars are already trading hands, a multi-billion dollar market for green hydrogen already exists. I cannot stress this is enough, this is not a hypothetical "we should" argument, this is a "hey guys you're obsessed with 5 - 10 year old opinions, look whats ALREADY HAPPENING" argument. arguing that historically most hydrogen has come from steam reforming natural gas, therefore hydrogen trucks are no better, is literally the same stupid argument as arguing that historically most electricity has come from coal and therefore EVs are no better. it should get you run out of this thread for being a dumbass. ehydrogen or green hydrogen is currently costing about $5/kg. at $1/kg it is cost competitive with diesel (for trucking). the learning rate on electrolyzers puts that in the ~$3-4 range by the end of the decade. the IRA (and similar EU programs) are subsidizing it $3/kg. essentially the three major world governments (china/us/eu) have ALREADY decided they're just gonna loving pay for it for green hydrogen to win. capital is flooding into the electrolyzer manufacturing market. you may still hate it and argue that it is an ethanol/biodisel like folly, but just like those did, this is happening. the very least you can be assed to do is to update your opinions to the current context of reality, rather than just bitching about 5 - 10 year old poo poo. MightyBigMinus fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 16:44
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Oh no a physicist who makes YouTube videos got sponsored by an unrelated product! Let's not look into anyone else's funding, I bet there are no competing interests.
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Apr 25, 2023 16:58
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Adenoid Dan posted:You posted 95 minutes of YouTube videos. I watch most things on 2x speed so 45 minutes. Most people do not have 45 minutes to read a single techno optimist post. No one sane is arguing that hydrogen will be used in passenger transportation. That is a strawman. It will be used in industries that are difficult to decarbonize like heavy machinery. It is true some hydrogen is produced via fossil fuel however some of it produced by offshore wind Europe. It's not like it can't be produced from other things either and it can be less carbon intensive that actual diesel fuel. All of the these technologies are also in their infancy, largely experimental and are far from complete. The idea that the proposal from John Deere, Caterpillar, etc. aren't serious but greenwashing needs some serious backup. As someone who's worked in the energy industry for years a tertiary capacity as an IT Consultant it is completely false that these projects are just smoke and mirrors. Electric vehicles are displacing millions of gasoline everyday. Chemical engineers are spending years researching lightweight plastics since batteries way so goddamn much along with new cooling fluids. It is very real. I don't know if it'll work out but it is not at all fake.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:01
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Adenoid Dan posted:Let's not look into anyone else's funding, I bet there are no competing interests.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:06
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I didn't say it was fake,and I didn't suggest anyone was claiming it would replace fossil fuels in personal vehicles, I said it was greenwashing. A few demonstration engines don't counter the demonstrable fact that most hydrogen, 95%, is fossil sourced, and if you don't see the interest that an engine manufacturer has in convincing people that they will be carbon neutral any day now, then I don't know what to tell you. Edit: his funding is his employer. Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 17:07
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I just don't get the point of hydrogen. The limiting factor with electric vehicles is energy density, but hydrogen is so much worse for that. You can compress it (very low energy density), liquefy it (expensive and bleeds off), or storage with hydrides (still not great energy density, more mass from non-fuel hydrides, etc). vvv 
cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 17:19
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cat botherer posted:I just don't get the point of hydrogen. The limiting factor with electric vehicles is energy density, but hydrogen is so much worse for that. You can compress it (very low energy density), liquefy it (expensive and bleeds off), or storage with hydrides (still not great energy density, more mass from non-fuel hydrides, etc). no one is talking about your car american. we have made it explicitly clear in all the posts and all the vidoes we're not talking about your car. please for the love of god stop talking about your car american.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:19
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Adenoid Dan posted:I didn't say it was fake,and I didn't suggest anyone was claiming it would replace fossil fuels in personal vehicles, I said it was greenwashing. A few demonstration engines don't counter the demonstrable fact that most hydrogen, 95%, is fossil sourced, and if you don't see the interest that an engine manufacturer has in convincing people that they will be carbon neutral any day now, then I don't know what to tell you. And what is greenwashing exactly? There are ways to get hydrogen from renewables or less intensive sources of carbon. You are making perfect the enemy of good.
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Apr 25, 2023 17:20
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:And what is greenwashing exactly? Greenwashing is doing PR and making small investments that make people think your company is greener than it is. For example, going to a fossil fuel funded institute to talk about how the engines you make will be hydrogen powered by 2050 But I've got some great news about Shell's green energy initiatives! Edit: I am fine with making shell the enemy of the good, because they are Adenoid Dan fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 17:25
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Adenoid Dan posted:Greenwashing is doing PR and making small investments that make people think your company is greener than it is. For example, going to a fossil fuel funded institute to talk about how the engines you make will be hydrogen powered by 2050 I suppose they could wait to make hydrogen vehicles until the hydrogen sector has been transitioned to green sources but it's not obvious how that would be beneficial. Surely getting the technology developed and in place so there's a demand for green hydrogen is better than just burning diesel until some arbitrary threshold where a sufficient amount of hydrogen is green to no longer qualify as greenwashing. The European Commission has proposed to produce 10 million tonnes of renewable hydrogen by 2030 and to import 10 million tonnes by 2030.. Australia also keeps talking about becoming a hydrogen exporter and Saudi Arabia is actively positioning for it. To what extend green hydrogen will be used is an open question. We will absolutely need it for some things but how low the price will eventually go and its eventual limitations is still opaque. It's an entire industry and supply chain that is being bootstrapped right now.
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Apr 25, 2023 18:07
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MightyBigMinus posted:no one is talking about your car american. we have made it explicitly clear in all the posts and all the vidoes we're not talking about your car. please for the love of god stop talking about your car american. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Apr 25, 2023 |
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Apr 25, 2023 18:16
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