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Yeah I didn't mean to say that knowing it obviously wasn't the end was a serious flaw they need to fix. It was just kind of funny.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:02
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I mean, also, it's November. Even if you haven't played enough Persona games to figure out what November means, no story based around school semesters is going to end in fuckin November, get outta here. The November thing sounds... very specific? If you're used to a Western school system you might think November being near the end of the year also means it's approaching the end of school. Japan starting its terms from March/April could throw people off. Yukari is one of the best written characters though, I'll agree. I think it also helps that she interacts with a lot of the cast so she feels present even when the focus isn't on her. She takes a backseat with the Ken/Shinjiro portion but she still looks out for Ken. Whereas with someone like Yusuke or Ann, they get focus on one or two portions and can get very little, so it makes them feel less present. They don't need crisis points like Morgana, but they need to feel like they're present.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:33
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IMO the way these games should deal with romance is by randomizing it. The game should randomly determine whether each social link is potentially interested in your character, and proceeds accordingly if you attempt to date them. Or go one further and let them date other social links. Like suddenly it's revealed that Makoto has started dating Ryuji when you attempt to choose her romance options.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:45
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Ytlaya posted:IMO the way these games should deal with romance is by randomizing it. The game should randomly determine whether each social link is potentially interested in your character, and proceeds accordingly if you attempt to date them. Roguelike social sim  I'm into it
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Apr 28, 2023 23:47
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Ytlaya posted:IMO the way these games should deal with romance is by randomizing it. The game should randomly determine whether each social link is potentially interested in your character, and proceeds accordingly if you attempt to date them. I can see no way this could piss off people, I approve.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:48
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Ytlaya posted:IMO the way these games should deal with romance is by randomizing it. The game should randomly determine whether each social link is potentially interested in your character, and proceeds accordingly if you attempt to date them. If you stop Ryuji from shouting "WE ARE THE PHANTOM THIEVES" at least five times, Makoto will date Ryuji.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:50
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Ytlaya posted:IMO the way these games should deal with romance is by randomizing it. The game should randomly determine whether each social link is potentially interested in your character, and proceeds accordingly if you attempt to date them. I'm going to get a nonstandard game over by having the main character of P6 flip their entire poo poo over not dating the anime waifu of my dreams and imploding the dungeon crawler protagonist friend group with unholy drama.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:52
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P6 is going to do no romance options. And find a way to make rejecting then problematic.
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Apr 28, 2023 23:57
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NachtSieger posted:I'm going to get a nonstandard game over by having the main character of P6 flip their entire poo poo over not dating the anime waifu of my dreams and imploding the dungeon crawler protagonist friend group with unholy drama. This is a school life social sim not your D&D group social sim.
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Apr 29, 2023 00:15
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ApplesandOranges posted:The November thing sounds... very specific? If you're used to a Western school system you might think November being near the end of the year also means it's approaching the end of school. Japan starting its terms from March/April could throw people off. Oh, I'm just referring to the pattern that the main turning point always seems to happen in November: it's when you defeat the 12th shadow and start getting into the Nyx stuff in P3, it's that one dungeon in P4 and the establishment of the Seekers of Truth (which I think bleeds into December, but it starts in November), and it's Sae's palace and the conclusion of the interrogation room scene that has framed the whole story up to that point. Like, just saying, the story is gonna go on until at least December. ApplesandOranges posted:Yukari is one of the best written characters though, I'll agree. I think it also helps that she interacts with a lot of the cast so she feels present even when the focus isn't on her. She takes a backseat with the Ken/Shinjiro portion but she still looks out for Ken. Whereas with someone like Yusuke or Ann, they get focus on one or two portions and can get very little, so it makes them feel less present. They don't need crisis points like Morgana, but they need to feel like they're present. I'll grant that Ann kind of fades into the background, but I feel that Yusuke has his moments. Like, he's the first to pull the brakes when things start to slip out of hand, and when Haru joins up his first concern is to outline the personal consequences this might have for her, and if she's sure she wants to proceed, and only when she says yes is he on board. Maybe those scenes had an outsized impact on me, but I feel that he's a constant grounded presence that the story would be much poorer without.
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Apr 29, 2023 00:26
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Oh, I'm just referring to the pattern that the main turning point always seems to happen in November: it's when you defeat the 12th shadow and start getting into the Nyx stuff in P3, it's that one dungeon in P4 and the establishment of the Seekers of Truth (which I think bleeds into December, but it starts in November), and it's Sae's palace and the conclusion of the interrogation room scene that has framed the whole story up to that point. Like, just saying, the story is gonna go on until at least December. Sure, but your first post was saying 'even if you haven't played enough Persona games to know November is when stuff happens, come on, you should know a school game isn't going to end by November'. Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'll grant that Ann kind of fades into the background, but I feel that Yusuke has his moments. Like, he's the first to pull the brakes when things start to slip out of hand, and when Haru joins up his first concern is to outline the personal consequences this might have for her, and if she's sure she wants to proceed, and only when she says yes is he on board. Maybe those scenes had an outsized impact on me, but I feel that he's a constant grounded presence that the story would be much poorer without. Ann and Yusuke aren't invisible (they're the ones that express concerns when the Phantom Thieves are blowing up too quickly), but part of the problem is that you could probably have given those lines to Makoto and it wouldn't feel any different. There's not a ton that feels specifically 'this is an Ann/Yusuke reaction'. The PTs are great and I love them, but outside of Morgana and Ryuji, they have a bit of 'our lines are a little interchangeable between talking heads'.
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Apr 29, 2023 00:34
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School doesn't end in November in the West either
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Apr 29, 2023 00:49
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 In fact, throughout the Southern Hemisphere (which is at least half of The West), school begins closer to the start of the year, instead of in the middle, same as Japan.
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Apr 29, 2023 01:20
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ApplesandOranges posted:The November thing sounds... very specific? If you're used to a Western school system you might think November being near the end of the year also means it's approaching the end of school. Japan starting its terms from March/April could throw people off.
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Apr 29, 2023 01:50
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NachtSieger posted:I'm going to get a nonstandard game over by having the main character of P6 flip their entire poo poo over not dating the anime waifu of my dreams and imploding the dungeon crawler protagonist friend group with unholy drama. Joker has the option of ghosting the rest of the Phantom Thieves if the girl/guy he likes starts dating another Phantom Thief. You just spend the rest of the game Posting.
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Apr 29, 2023 02:01
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P6 needs to let you set up your various party members with each other and then watch them being cute and couple-y  Where was my option to repeatedly send Ryuuji and Ann alone on some contrived "recon" missions in Mementos or whatever.Failing that at least spend less time dickriding the self-insert protagonist and let other party members interact with each other without the protag being involved. There was more or less one single instance of that in base P5 when Ann and Makoto get together and it's a good scene but it sticks out so much precisely because it was a unique instance of an organic intra-party interaction. Whenever Joker is not on screen, everybody else needs to be asking "Where's Joker?"
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Apr 29, 2023 02:27
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I mean, that's a pretty common complaint levied against the modern Persona games and I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you there. Even having two or three other party members hanging out together on days when they're not available for Social Links or whatever would go a long way, even without any additional cutscenes.
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Apr 29, 2023 02:41
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My pie-in-the-sky dream is to have party members be more involved in social links that aren't their own. Like how Futaba is pretty heavily involved in Sojiro's S.Link, I'd like that but for all of them. Another thing I think would be cool would be to have all or nearly all of your party members from the start, that way they can establish group dynamics faster and maybe avoid late-character syndrome for poor Haru.
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Apr 29, 2023 03:22
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Alacron posted:My pie-in-the-sky dream is to have party members be more involved in social links that aren't their own. Like how Futaba is pretty heavily involved in Sojiro's S.Link, I'd like that but for all of them. P4G was better about this than P5 was. Lots of S-links had other characters show up. Granted, it's small town setting made that easier. P5 mostly relegated this to "hang out" events.
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Apr 29, 2023 03:26
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Are you talking about P4G? Because Marie's Link had involvement from other characters, but IIRC all the Links that were in the base game were fairly isolated to the characters involved. IIRC there were a few non-Social Link items, like hanging out at night, that would involve maybe two characters and give Link points for both, kinda like bringing one of your Confidants to one of the places that costs money to go. Honestly, making the"hang out" events multi-character would fix the problem where they don't seem worthwhile by themselves.
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Apr 29, 2023 04:04
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Nah, Naoto's Link has Nanako in it at one point, Nanako and Dojima's Links are obviously each full of the other, and the Tower Link has the birthday party.
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Apr 29, 2023 04:11
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I didn't do anything with the sports guys in my second run of 4 but I could swear they actually showed up in a different S Link in my first run because I had started their link. Or one of the party members showed up in their S Link. Either way, there was definitely some mingling. Only 3 felt like every S Link took place in its own isolated pocket dimension.
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Apr 29, 2023 04:14
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Of course, you might as well also point out that Ann and Ryuji are both in Yusuke's Confidant for a scene (and Ryuji is in Ann's) while you're counting appearances.
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Apr 29, 2023 04:15
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I feel it also helps in P4's case that some of the main party have the benefit of being connected even before the protagonist shows up. Like, Chie and Yukiko are already established as best friends, Chie and Yosuke are acquainted enough to be lending DVDs to one another, and Yukiko even mentions offhand knowing Kanji from middle school. Compare that to P5, where I think only Ann and Ryuji knew of each other before the events of the game proper, and the lack of interpersonal team interactions sticks out way more.
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Apr 29, 2023 04:18
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Commander Keene posted:Are you talking about P4G? Because Marie's Link had involvement from other characters, but IIRC all the Links that were in the base game were fairly isolated to the characters involved. IIRC there were a few non-Social Link items, like hanging out at night, that would involve maybe two characters and give Link points for both, kinda like bringing one of your Confidants to one of the places that costs money to go. In P4G, there were hangout events that could occur which involve various characters if you are in multiple relationships. Arist posted:Of course, you might as well also point out that Ann and Ryuji are both in Yusuke's Confidant for a scene (and Ryuji is in Ann's) while you're counting appearances. That being said, unfortunately, this scene never changes to include more members if you start this scene when you have more members than Ryuji and Ann.
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Apr 29, 2023 05:16
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NikkolasKing posted:I didn't do anything with the sports guys in my second run of 4 but I could swear they actually showed up in a different S Link in my first run because I had started their link. Or one of the party members showed up in their S Link. Either way, there was definitely some mingling. Ai has a crush on whichever sports guy you have a social link with.
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Apr 29, 2023 05:20
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I think the only links in P4G that don't have anyone else show up are Hermit, Sun, Temperance and Death. Devil is teetering on the edge but it is required to unlock Death. Not counting Empress since that's a nothingburger of a link.
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Apr 29, 2023 11:29
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Atlus swapping around the arcana of the Velvet Room attendant fusion requests - or even linking them to arcana in the first place - confuses me. What ties the requests to Empress or Strength anyway?
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Apr 29, 2023 11:56
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The requests themselves? Nothing. It's a Social Link/Confidant, the idea is that you're doing the fusion requests to improve your bond with the attendant(s).
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Apr 29, 2023 12:01
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Back to playing Persona 4 Arena Ultimax and I just really love this fighting game a lot. I would maybe commit a war crime or two for a sequel.
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Apr 29, 2023 17:48
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Alacron posted:My pie-in-the-sky dream is to have party members be more involved in social links that aren't their own. Like how Futaba is pretty heavily involved in Sojiro's S.Link, I'd like that but for all of them. Yeah, I wouldn't mind extra scenes where I can see how everyone else is hanging out w/o Joker since it makes the world livelier. Also, I like that we can see SL acting differently on their own or with other friends, which adds to their personality.
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Apr 29, 2023 17:56
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Royal has the extra scenes in the Thieves' Den, and while they're a pain to dig up, a lot of them are really good. Some of my favorites: Arsène: Various characters musing on Joker awakening to protect a complete stranger who was nice to him for five minutes and saying that tracks, he's a cool dude, and also Mishima asking Sojiro for dirt on Joker's personal life, with Sojiro first saying "oh, it'll cost ya" and then following up with "just kidding, there's not enough money in the world to make me betray the kid." Classroom: Kasumi and Ann talking about Morgana hiding in Joker's desk and Kasumi being the only person in the game to utter the thought "wait a minute, even during exams? Isn't that cheating?" Shido statue: The girls discussing how Ryuji totally saved everyone and that they should apologize for that one scene everybody hates, Akechi saying "oh cool you did change his heart like I asked, don't expect any thanks though" and Morgana replying "You're allowed to act tough, but we all know how you really feel", Ryuji idly wondering if real life Shido was also insanely ripped, and I think it's also the one where Mishima and Iwai interact for fifteen seconds and Iwai goes "oh, you're the class loser, huh" Mona bus: Ann razzing Morgana for practicing his little transformation pose, which is a nice contrast to a different chat at the Zorro statue where she says Morgana's serious side is kind of scary, but he's actually a gentleman who would never do anything wrong. Kamoshida statue: Kawakami admitting that she knew the guy was up to something bad and chose to look the other way because she was afraid to get involved. Chihaya's booth: Futaba reading Sojiro's fortune and revealing that he really needs to buy his daughter a fancy graphics card. Like, just put this in the base game next time, and give us something like the ATE system from FFIX if you think it's too much bloat, Atlus! Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Apr 29, 2023 |
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Apr 29, 2023 18:26
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I think the social link/confidant system works fine the way it is, it's mostly that most characters are failed by the writing in either the main storyline or their personal side story. Oh, the base system is excellent. It doesn't produce amazing writing, but by forcing each character to have ten levels and grow from embodying [Major Arcana Card] Inverted to embodying [Major Arcana Card] it means that the Persona series consistently has more than a dozen NPCs, all of which have flaws and meaningful character growth - and then by gamifying it they ensure that the player gets to know all these characters. This doesn't inherently lead to amazing writing, but other than Hades (which basically does the same thing and has amazing writing) It's hard to think of even another RPG that has such a consistently large and well drawn cast. (Mass Effect, for example, doesn't even come close). And this despite the frankly mediocre quality of much of the writing most evident in Persona 5 Vanilla (which there was only so much Royal could do to fix, especially as I suspect they weren't allowed to actually change many existing scenes so had to sneak in a lot through Showtimes, the Thieves Den, and Monabus Dialogue). I genuinely think that if Persona 5 Vanilla didn't have the Persona s-link system the only characters anyone would be able to remember other than from the visuals and maybe two scenes would be "go to bed" Morgana, "designated love interest" Makoto, "gamer girl" Futaba, "daddy" Sojiro, Sae, Akechi (and let's not forget that he was barely a character before Royal), and Igor. And possibly Yusuke. And there wouldn't have been a Royal at all.
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Apr 29, 2023 19:29
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Ytlaya posted:IMO the way these games should deal with romance is by randomizing it. The game should randomly determine whether each social link is potentially interested in your character, and proceeds accordingly if you attempt to date them. This assumes that the game is meant to be replayed. quote:Or go one further and let them date other social links. Like suddenly it's revealed that Makoto has started dating Ryuji when you attempt to choose her romance options. Seconded. P4 even did this with Kanji and Naoto (and of course messed that up, but never mind), but only if Protagonist didn't I think?
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Apr 29, 2023 19:31
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Kanji never acts on his crush no matter what, sadly
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Apr 29, 2023 21:16
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Kanji never acts on his crush while the protagonist is around. I choose to believe he totally does so off-screen.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:24
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Point being, they totally should have had Kanji and Naoto get together.
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Apr 29, 2023 21:37
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I've only played P5 (so far). Do the other games have similar scenes to the "Wow! Everything's going great for us! We're partying at Disneyland! Another day, another Palace, another change of heart, am I right? Nothing bad will ever happen to us, ever! And...wait...what...?" moment after Okumura's palace? Because it's amazing. Just a chef's kiss moment.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:36
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Captain Hotbutt posted:Because it's amazing. Just a chef's kiss moment.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:41
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Captain Hotbutt posted:I've only played P5 (so far). Do the other games have similar scenes to the "Wow! Everything's going great for us! We're partying at Disneyland! Another day, another Palace, another change of heart, am I right? Nothing bad will ever happen to us, ever! And...wait...what...?" moment after Okumura's palace? Persona 3 definitely does. You have to stretch a little more to find an equivalent in P4.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:41
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