|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:mostly that jan 6 was more of a riot than anything, disorganized af and everyone there had their own intent. they were riding high on mob energy. so ascribing pretty much any intent to 'Them' is both possible and probably inaccurate. No. That’s incorrect. “9. Based on false allegations that the election was stolen, Trump summoned tens of thousands of supporters to Washington for January 6. “ “12. Each of these actions by Trump was taken in support of a multi-part conspiracy to overturn the lawful results of the 2020 presidential election.”
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 13:15 |
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:No. That’s incorrect. That is fair and defensible, but the jan 6 rioters being united by hating democracy doesn't proceed automatically to Murder Death Kill.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:33
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:That is fair and defensible, but the jan 6 rioters being united by hating democracy doesn't proceed automatically to Murder Death Kill. It probably does seeing as, by your own admission, it was angry mob, which are not known for showing restraint. TheDeadlyShoe posted:mostly that jan 6 was more of a riot than anything, disorganized af and everyone there had their own intent. they were riding high on mob energy. so ascribing pretty much any intent to 'Them' is both possible and probably inaccurate.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:36
|
|
|
They're entirely happy to murder, as long as they think they have no chances of suffering any consequences for it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:41
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Sure, but there isn't anything comparable to that either. At least American leftists should get to the point where they are actually contemplating banning their militant organization instead of whining about how they would ban them if they would try. Even the vacuous liberal equivalents had their own in Hindenburg times. I'm curious now, since you've evoked Hindenburg several times. He was the dude who died and let Adolf Hitler become both Führer and Reichskanzler, and he was still alive to see the so-called Enabling Act become law in Germany, letting Hitler destroy all parties that were not the NSDAP. Plus, the Nazis actually won the street fights of the 20's, in the sense that Germany became Nazi Germany. Why are the street-fighting reds of that era in particular an inspiration?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:42
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:That is fair and defensible, but the jan 6 rioters being united by hating democracy doesn't proceed automatically to Murder Death Kill. It has been established that: 10. Knowing that a violent attack on the Capitol was under way and knowing that his words would incite further violence, Trump purposely sent a social media message publicly condemning vice-president Pence at 2.24pm on January 6. 11. Knowing that violence was underway at the Capitol, and despite his duty to ensure that the laws are faithfully executed, Trump refused repeated requests over a multiple-hour period that he instruct his violent supporters to disperse and leave the Capitol, and instead watched the violent attack unfold on television. This failure to act perpetuated the violence at the Capitol and obstructed Congress’s proceeding to count electoral votes.”
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:45
|
|
|
The situations with Jan 6th, that spree of people attacking infrastructure (electricity facilities), and now the Disney vs DeSantis thing have a very star wars prequel vibe. The right threatens leaders, infastructure, and giant corporations, I feel conflicted in taking any position but "let them fight". The measures enacted to crack down on such things would be used against any actions from the left (even more brutal, intentful, and effective of course), yet right wing fascists actually ahceiving their goals using those means is also horrifying. gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:That is fair and defensible, but the jan 6 rioters being united by hating democracy doesn't proceed automatically to Murder Death Kill. What are you talking about? They killed a capitol police officer...
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
I believe very strongly that "let them fight" is not a good attitude when one side is Nazis and the other side is Not Nazis. When the Nazis win you might be like, oh, poo poo, maybe I shouldn't have let them fight.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 15:52
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:That is fair and defensible, but the jan 6 rioters being united by hating democracy doesn't proceed automatically to Murder Death Kill. I mean you're technically right that a mob without a clear agenda or a leader doesn't really have a collective objective in a tactical sense. But they were angry. They did want to overturn the election. And the point of the event (to many) was to 'force congress to declare the election results invalid' or however you want to phrase it, which is certainly an ambiguous concept that seems likely to include violence. You're correct that ascribing a single motivation to a disorganized riot is basically impossible but we can also say that more than one person in the mob seemed likely to do violence to a member of congress and were significantly closer to doing so than some guy posting on Stormfront or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:04
|
|
|
It's very tempting and convenient and comforting to believe that because there weren't catastrophic consequences on Jan 6, there could not have been. Believing that is how we make sure there are such consequences next time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:04
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:I'm curious now, since you've evoked Hindenburg several times. He was the dude who died and let Adolf Hitler become both Führer and Reichskanzler, and he was still alive to see the so-called Enabling Act become law in Germany, letting Hitler destroy all parties that were not the NSDAP. Not in particular, just the one that rose up. Plenty of street-fighting reds to cite as more effective examples.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
I blows my mind that with all the mass shootings that take place in America every day, where a person brings a gun to a building and murders ton of people all at once, that anyone could look at the Jan. 6 riots where a bunch of people brought a bunch of guns to a building and think "Yeah, there was clearly no way anyone could have been killed that day".
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:16
|
|
|
Zip tie guy wasn't jumping seats in the rotunda for funsies and he wasn't alone. There were people there with specific intent to kill. Denying and muddying up that reality is something right wing media has spent a *LOT* of time and energy on and that's not an accident. The 'useful idiot' crowd was there milling about not accomplishing much and generally misunderstanding things; sure, granted. They weren't going to stop political actions by trashing a building. That's just not how things work. There were people organizing the event and on the ground that *do* understand how political power and exercise works and their goal was to murder political opposition members until they got what they want. Any understanding short of those facts is astonishingly off base in a country with a rising fascist political party.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:17
|
|
|
VideoGameVet posted:With the sage advice of Dan Quayle. Unironically true. Quayle told him in no uncertain terms he was just a figurehead, there to rubber stamp the election results. Even Pence taking a position like “this is a huge mess, let’s regroup in a few days” would have had disastrous results.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:24
|
|
|
Space Cadet Omoly posted:I blows my mind that with all the mass shootings that take place in America every day, where a person brings a gun to a building and murders ton of people all at once, that anyone could look at the Jan. 6 riots where a bunch of people brought a bunch of guns to a building and think "Yeah, there was clearly no way anyone could have been killed that day". Seriously. It also blows my mind that some people ITT already forgot that they did kill someone that day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:34
|
|
|
BRJurgis posted:The situations with Jan 6th, that spree of people attacking infrastructure (electricity facilities), and now the Disney vs DeSantis thing have a very star wars prequel vibe. The right threatens leaders, infastructure, and giant corporations, I feel conflicted in taking any position but "let them fight". The measures enacted to crack down on such things would be used against any actions from the left (even more brutal, intentful, and effective of course), yet right wing fascists actually ahceiving their goals using those means is also horrifying. gently caress. Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni got you covered on Star Wars political analogies relevant to creeping fascism. Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s a new thing and it’s a good thing. And they are absolutely correct! Community / being for others is how you fight fascism. That means all these things: Union organizing and left community organizing. Participating in left politics. Participating in center left politics. Participating in local community. Participating in social and charitable clubs. Participating in a church. Being for others in authentic community is opposition to fascism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:45
|
|
|
Baby Yoda says you have to go to church, or otherwise you are working for fascism? That's an... Interesting deduction.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 16:55
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:Baby Yoda says you have to go to church, or otherwise you are working for fascism? That's an... Interesting deduction. No it’s an explicit reading of the series. Like the end of the last episode they are baptizing a kid and baby yoda gets all upset he can’t talk yet to start the path towards his own baptism, so the Mandolorian adopts him so he can. Show’s wild. The other thesis is that authentically religious folk should be against fascism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 17:05
|
|
|
That other thesis is reasonable, the Third Reich tried their best to form a new state religion and failed. I just found evoking Baby Yoda as funny, because I am a child. That said, an atheistic person can also be against fascism. The dialogue, such as it was, between Primo Levi and Jean Amery both had them questioning faith from different angles, but both were most definitely anti-fascist. Rappaport fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Apr 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 17:09
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni got you covered on Star Wars political analogies relevant to creeping fascism. I don't disagree really, but despite the mandalorians being either mercenaries or a martial cult Andor definitely had the more gritty realistic violence and politics. Among other things the season was about evading/fighting the cops, a forceful robbery of military funds, a prison escape, and starting a violent revolutionary street riot. Of course, Luthen does explicitly state his intent to force the empire to crack down, to force people to take a side and stand up. I'll stop the star wars derail but Andor is really phenomenal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 17:12
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:That said, an atheistic person can also be against fascism. Absolutely. Being-for-others in community is a very board thing. Like a Marxist mutual aid group is something I’d characterize as an example. BRJurgis posted:. Of course, Luthen does explicitly state his intent to force the empire to crack down, to force people to take a side and stand up. The ending of Andor: Marvas speech is being-for-other in a community. Also it’s wild how much current pop fiction shits on fascists openly. It’s almost like folks are thinking about what to do about it broadly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:mostly that jan 6 was more of a riot than anything, disorganized af and everyone there had their own intent. they were riding high on mob energy. so ascribing pretty much any intent to 'Them' is both possible and probably inaccurate. The "mostly" here is doing a lot of heavy lifting. There were armed, organized militia groups intentionally stoking that riot, and coordinating attacks on any security that was holding the mob back. They did this with the full intent of making use of the cover caused by the chaos. Did we forget that at least the initial perimeter breach was caused by coordinated action by the proud boys?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 17:26
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:Also it’s wild how much current pop fiction shits on fascists openly. It’s almost like folks are thinking about what to do about it broadly. We'd be fighting Capitalists if we weren't fighting fascists.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
cgeq posted:We'd be fighting Capitalists if we weren't fighting fascists.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 18:48
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:But you repeat yourself, I’d love for you to explain how capitalists are equivalent to fascists
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 18:53
|
|
|
Kalit posted:I’d love for you to explain how capitalists are equivalent to fascists cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Apr 30, 2023 |
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 18:55
|
|
|
cat botherer posted:That was a joke. More seriously, capitalists have historically sided with fascists over leftists when the chips are down, every single time. The reason being is that fascists are conservative, and thus want to preserve much more of the status quo - which generally includes the bourgeoisie economic hierarchy. Churchill would like a word with you. Less tritely, what you are claiming is seriously disproven by the actual history. Frequently, capitalists aligned with communists (or at least some kind of further left liberal democracy) whenever they felt a larger threat from fascism. There are a lot of stories from the Manhattan Project, Hollywood, and elsewhere of left-leaning intellectuals working within a capitalist system and only suffering for it much later, when fascism was defeated as a global threat and, rhetorically at least, replaced by communism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:11
|
|
|
I have an optimistic theory of the current global political situation, which I don’t really believe but would be nice, that we are currently right smack-dab in the middle of WW3; it’s just that outside of Ukraine (and wherever else Russia and the US stick their noses) it’s mostly being fought culturally and politically. I think it is very possible that fascism will ultimately be just as conclusively defeated as it was in the 1940s, but without the whole “100 million dead” thing, Japan and all of Europe destroyed" thing.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:45
|
|
|
There's a weird pattern I see in far left arguments, where failure to accomplish goals means those people never intended to do it in the first place. You see it here with the "Jan 6 people never meant to hurt anyone because they didn't kill any politicians"(that were just barely evacuated) or more often "all the Dems never wanted to pass this bill" (because 1-2 of them didn't vote for it). It seems so divorced from the reality of intent and an almost childlike "I could do X if I really wanted to that it almost feels pointless to try to counteract with facts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:49
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:There's a weird pattern I see in far left arguments, where failure to accomplish goals means those people never intended to do it in the first place. You see it here with the "Jan 6 people never meant to hurt anyone because they didn't kill any politicians"(that were just barely evacuated) or more often "all the Dems never wanted to pass this bill" (because 1-2 of them didn't vote for it). It seems so divorced from the reality of intent and an almost childlike "I could do X if I really wanted to that it almost feels pointless to try to counteract with facts. It's not really a leftist argument; it's just a counterfactual rooted in intent, designed to be unfalsifiable and shift burdens onto the target. For example, industry groups arguing against new regulations will point to current regulatory actions, successful or not and say "if they really wanted to, they could enforce the regulations they have".
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 19:55
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Sure, but there isn't anything comparable to that either. At least American leftists should get to the point where they are actually contemplating banning their militant organization instead of whining about how they would ban them if they would try. Even the vacuous liberal equivalents had their own in Hindenburg times. How is this not just victim blaming about how the marginalized don't fight back enough? Who do you think makes up the American left? A lot of it is people who experience every day by existing as themselves so I'm sorry they're not forming street gangs in a way you approve of. This is also a very ahistorical understanding of leftism and how violence has and hasn't been used. You're looking at a movement after years of suppression and going "oh jeez why do they suck at this?" with no acknowledgement of what came before.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:14
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:How is this not just victim blaming about how the marginalized don't fight back enough? Who do you think makes up the American left? A lot of it is people who experience every day by existing as themselves so I'm sorry they're not forming street gangs in a way you approve of. This is also a very ahistorical understanding of leftism and how violence has and hasn't been used. You're looking at a movement after years of suppression and going "oh jeez why do they suck at this?" with no acknowledgement of what came before. Nothing that came before is any different from what any leftist group that succeeded in the past. Stop acting like American leftists are historically shat upon any more than the leftists anywhere else. Leftists somewhere else have it easier? That is built upon leftists that didn't engage in pretending the fascists are potential allies for one. Or pretending that fascism is not evil. If you believe electoral politics are the way to power, act like it. If you don't believe electoral politics are the way to power, act like it. That's all I demand of my leftist representatives and that is what you all should be demanding as well. American electoral leftists are still trying to find out the right way to appeal to fascists for their material needs, because they can't condemn poor fascists for the pieces of poo poo they are and use that, and militant leftists don't seem to exist other but for unorganized local spontaneous actions. Pick a loving lane.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:34
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's very tempting and convenient and comforting to believe that because there weren't catastrophic consequences on Jan 6, there could not have been. Agreed. I started a January 6th thread that is now I think the Trump Legal Problem thread and it's astonishing to me how many posters here kind of blew the whole thing off and considered a huge joke, I guess going by the measure that they ultimately failed. But that whole day could have gone a whole lot loving worse and the fact that it didn't isn't entirely down to the fact that the insurrectionists were unorganized and generally stupid. A lot of it was dumb luck and some of it was that the targets were evacuated swiftly. The motherfuckers overran and stormed the god damned capitol building with murder on their minds and thought they were re-enacting the revolutionary war. When some of them got caught and a lot of it looked as ugly as it was, they tried to say they were framed by Antifa or some poo poo. These MAGA's are an insane, fascist, authoritarian cult - straight up - and I don't think they're much of a laughing matter. I live in NE FLorida and I HEAR the things these people say and know the way they think. Folks openly talk about murdering Pelosi, Biden, etc. and how great it would be. If anyone thinks that someone wouldn't have executed Nancy Pelosi or any other Democrat they got their hands on over a live stream that day, if given the chance, they're delusional and don't truly understand the true, hardened mindset of these maniacs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
I think most of them probably thought that Trump was going to roll in with the big handsome generals once they'd managed to get in there. They were following his orders after all, and they were dumb enough to assume that he had a plan for them. Also plenty of those people believe that Democrats literally sacrifice children in secret rituals and drink their adrenochrome. Do you think that might affect someone's willingness to commit violence?
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:05
|
|
|
socialsecurity posted:There's a weird pattern I see in far left arguments, where failure to accomplish goals means those people never intended to do it in the first place. You see it here with the "Jan 6 people never meant to hurt anyone because they didn't kill any politicians"(that were just barely evacuated) or more often "all the Dems never wanted to pass this bill" (because 1-2 of them didn't vote for it). It seems so divorced from the reality of intent and an almost childlike "I could do X if I really wanted to that it almost feels pointless to try to counteract with facts. To be fair this isn't just a thing leftists do, from what I've seen this is something that happens all over the political spectrum. I think it's related to the "an upcoming thing is going to be a huge problem ---> actions are taken to prevent the future problem from happening and disaster is averted---> a number of very loud people start claiming 'that problem was never actually a problem and we didn't need to to take those actions!'" phenomenon that happens whenever we manage to do large scale preventative care on something like Y2K or the hole in the ozone layer. If something doesn't happen that means it was never going to happen and all actions to make the thing happen don't count and all actions actively taken to prevent the thing from happening were unnecessary.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:11
|
|
|
 gets used to describe the CIA all the time, ngl
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Nothing that came before is any different from what any leftist group that succeeded in the past. Stop acting like American leftists are historically shat upon any more than the leftists anywhere else. Leftists somewhere else have it easier? That is built upon leftists that didn't engage in pretending the fascists are potential allies for one. Or pretending that fascism is not evil. When are you moving here to help organize or like what? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:24
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:When are you moving here to help organize or like what? When are you going to be anything else but a dishonest debater? Nativism still isn't a substitute for arguments. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 13:15 |
|
|
BiggerBoat posted:Agreed. Yup, they were all looking for blood, but they were also waiting for someone else to start it because they're all cowards. Honestly whenever I need to capture the insanity of that day I think back and remember a bunch of geriatric idiots climbing walls outside and hurting themselves because they had to play-act storming the castle despite the stairs up to the building being right loving there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 30, 2023 21:34
|
|
