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TheCenturion posted:Europe, prior to the convention of the white tower. I'm trying to think of a polite way to say this, but there isn't one: you have no idea what you're talking about. (The concept of paradigm didn't hadn't even been formulated during that period.)
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Apr 30, 2023 02:42
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Being maximally generous here, it might well be true that the Order of Hermes, various pagan cults, the Awakened members of the Catholic church, etc, all attempted to enforce their paradigms on the people of the precapitalist world with varying success. That's why the Order of Reason was a genuinely progressive force whose defeat of various mysticists and delivery of science to the masses should be celebrated. But the wheel doesn't stop turning. Just like it was historically necessary for the Order to take over, it's necessary, in turn, for the Technocracy to be destroyed. The Council of Nine isn't and can't be the same as the original priests and wizards who joined it, and it literally can't win without reckoning with and resolving the initial weaknesses and inequities that allowed the Technocrats to seize power.
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Apr 30, 2023 02:55
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Ferrinus posted:But the wheel doesn't stop turning. Just like it was historically necessary for the Order to take over, it's necessary, in turn, for the Technocracy to be destroyed. The Council of Nine isn't and can't be the same as the original priests and wizards who joined it, and it literally can't win without reckoning with and resolving the initial weaknesses and inequities that allowed the Technocrats to seize power. That's why we have Disparate Alliance, the NEW group of wildly different mage groups that kind of have the same problems as the Traditions but they get to be  they're not the Traditions.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:10
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Rand Brittain posted:I'm trying to think of a polite way to say this, but there isn't one: you have no idea what you're talking about. So? No, they didn't call it paradigm. Nor do modern mages. That's a gameplay concept for the players. Call it heretical thought, call it blasphemy, call it strange foreign ways, call it a competing paradigm, who cares? Ferrinus posted:Being maximally generous here, it might well be true that the Order of Hermes, various pagan cults, the Awakened members of the Catholic church, etc, all attempted to enforce their paradigms on the people of the precapitalist world with varying success. That's why the Order of Reason was a genuinely progressive force whose defeat of various mysticists and delivery of science to the masses should be celebrated. Yes, exactly. The oppressor is cast down by the oppressed, and becomes, in turn, the oppressor. The Council isn't the same group, but should they come into power, they would have the same issues. Because they're all human.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:16
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TheCenturion posted:So? No, they didn't call it paradigm. Nor do modern mages. That's a gameplay concept for the players. You don't get it. They didn't have the concept that what other people about how the world worked could affect them at all. They didn't care.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:17
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Rand Brittain posted:You don't get it. They didn't have the concept that what other people about how the world worked could affect them at all. They didn't care. Ok, buddy, we're clearly just talking past each other here. I've made my point, you've made yours, lets move on.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:18
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TheCenturion posted:So? No, they didn't call it paradigm. Nor do modern mages. That's a gameplay concept for the players. Ehhh - they might have an issue, but that's not the same as having the same issue. Whatever difficulties an ascendant Council might have would be new ones relating to the difficulties relating to universal or even just common awakening/ascension. These might be resolvable within the context of Tradition dominance or they might require yet another revolutionary rupture but that's for the mages of the future to determine.
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Apr 30, 2023 03:49
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Ferrinus posted:Ehhh - they might have an issue, but that's not the same as having the same issue. Whatever difficulties an ascendant Council might have would be new ones relating to the difficulties relating to universal or even just common awakening/ascension. These might be resolvable within the context of Tradition dominance or they might require yet another revolutionary rupture but that's for the mages of the future to determine. To be honest, that would actually be a pretty good late-stage mindfuck for PCs in a Mage game. Or a Werewolf game. (I think vampires will be "oh, Gehenna's in like eight hundred years? That's really awesome, let me go start a blood cult for the next 250 years.") e: "We have no records of your existence, starting... about eight months ago. There's a gap in what we know, about a hundred and thirty years wide. But rest assured, my friends: Thanks to your destruction of that facility, and that album going gold, there will be something on the other side." Nessus fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Apr 30, 2023 |
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Apr 30, 2023 04:05
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Nessus posted:Hold on, buddy, are you saying that we're not the literal fulcrum of history, the axis around which past and future revolve, the critical point on which everything rests? That total ascension might be some jackasses in eight hundred years? I've heard it put that the ultimate fall of capitalism should actually be thought of as the start of history. Like, at last, we're done with that bullshit and can roll up our sleeves and tackle real problems as might concern serious, practical adults.
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Apr 30, 2023 04:47
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Pre-Tradition mystics were of their cultures, not on top of them. Often as thr court wizards. So definitely enforcers of the status quo but not secret masters of it. The Order of Reason changed everything. And in this way they got the now-Traditions to realize their was more than they imagined and that the world could be changed.
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Apr 30, 2023 04:50
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Ferrinus posted:Although also, even if it is, whose fault is that? Does fault matter? Does it really matter who poo poo the bed? The bed still has poo poo in it, so if you want to sleep their, you need to clean up the poo poo first. Did Capitalistic Technocraticism allow Pentex to be as it is? Fine, it did. But that still means that a massive Fortune 3 company is being run by Nephandi who have an advancing in progress plan to warp/destroy the planet. The Technocracy has a clear interest in destroying Pentex because demon slave pollution mutants aren't going to have any use for or interest in capitalism or the current First World socioeconomic systems. They just need to be made aware of that fact in terms that they can accept and believe.
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Apr 30, 2023 04:52
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Everyone posted:Does fault matter? Does it really matter who poo poo the bed? The bed still has poo poo in it, so if you want to sleep their, you need to clean up the poo poo first. To defeat the enemy they would need to change their ways. If they compromised the Time Table and the Precepts of Damian and cloned up a cyborg army against Pentex, they might be able to succeed -- but there would be no way to conceal that someone made an army of super-soldiers and sent them against a major world corporation. And it is also possible (probable, even) that elements starting that plan would be suppressed internally. If they change their ways they are no longer the Technocracy as presented in the core books even if they probably tell themselves otherwise and would likely have a lot of institutional continuity. This would probably be a pretty badass Techno campaign though.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:10
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I don't see how or why the Technocracy would "defeat" Pentex. You want a world in which human labor is organized according to corporate profits? Okay, this is what you get. If Pentex has 1% higher margins than Microsoft or whatever then you are in fact honor-bound to protect and advance its interests.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:17
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Ferrinus posted:I don't see how or why the Technocracy would "defeat" Pentex. You want a world in which human labor is organized according to corporate profits? Okay, this is what you get. If Pentex has 1% higher margins than Microsoft or whatever then you are in fact honor-bound to protect and advance its interests.
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Apr 30, 2023 05:27
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Nessus posted:Much like how capitalism arose in fits and starts from an aristocratic environment rather than just being delivered by Satan sometime in the early 15th century, they would innovate and would probably unlock a new world, likely one in which corporate profits are important, but the ultimate master is the sickest cyborg army. It turned into Metal Gear Rising so gradually we didn't even notice.
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Apr 30, 2023 08:17
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Ferrinus posted:There's simply no hiding from the facts, even behind the big bads of other game lines. Oh, the Technocracy would have creates a utopia except it was corrupted by the big bad wyrm? What the gently caress good is it, then? You gave us a global society that's trivially subverted by the wyrm, you dumbasses! Why would we let this go on?! Oh, you misunderstand my angle I think, I'm saying the Technocracy are completely incompetent jokes precisely because they let it get subverted by the Wyrm and the Weaver simultaneously. My angle is there's no point arguing ideology with the Technocrats when they are clearly just corrupt fools. Don't let Capitalism pretend it has a plan! It doesn't. It's just the Wyrm. Pentex are the superior corporate antagonist because they embrace the utter lack of meaning and value present in the system. Ferrinus posted:I don't see how or why the Technocracy would "defeat" Pentex. You want a world in which human labor is organized according to corporate profits? Okay, this is what you get. If Pentex has 1% higher margins than Microsoft or whatever then you are in fact honor-bound to protect and advance its interests. Tolth fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Apr 30, 2023 |
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Apr 30, 2023 08:37
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Ghost Leviathan posted:It turned into Metal Gear Rising so gradually we didn't even notice.
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Apr 30, 2023 08:38
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Like hell, irl it's become obvious how hilarious easy capitalists can be manipulated if you have agency and don't subscribe to their worldview, because they have no concept of the future beyond the next earnings report and will do literally anything if you offer them a way to make Number Go Up.
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Apr 30, 2023 09:00
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Like hell, irl it's become obvious how hilarious easy capitalists can be manipulated if you have agency and don't subscribe to their worldview, because they have no concept of the future beyond the next earnings report and will do literally anything if you offer them a way to make Number Go Up. The W20 Pentex onboarding guide has some of the best and most accurate satire on corporate behaviour I've ever seen. The explanation of how Endron's "production" of oil-spills works is awesome; at first glance, generating major oil spills on purpose sounds like insane Captain-Planet-Villain type behaviour. The real logic is a lot simpler - the cost of the fine is always less than the cost of compliance. They run all their tankers on the thinnest possible margins because the failure rate is outweighed by the cost savings - and who cares if some animals get hurt. From the Wyrm side, this is a flawless plan to plausibly deniably commit ecological devastation in a completely banal way. From the Corporate side, this is completely normal and rational behaviour and frequently happens in real life. Incidentally, Subsidiaries: A Guide to Pentex was written in 2000 and has a whole section discussing how the gaming side of Pentex has a plan to drive the mass-import of anime dating sim visual novels to the west because they believe visual novels specifically have the potential to disempower people and make them into incels.  Pentex literally cannot stop winning. Tolth fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Apr 30, 2023 |
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Apr 30, 2023 09:39
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What programs do you use to organize your notes to run games. Kumu has been great for keeping track of npcs and their relationships. But my story notes are currently a disorganized txt file. I vaguely remember using some Ms office program over a decade ago when is was doing computer sales to organize story ideas, possibly it was one note. But obviously I'm not gonna pay for office. I'm looking for something that will give me nested headings like a good bookmark bar on a pdf, while also allowing me to have terms link back to their own sections like a wiki. Open source prefered
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Apr 30, 2023 16:47
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Soonmot posted:What programs do you use to organize your notes to run games. Kumu has been great for keeping track of npcs and their relationships. But my story notes are currently a disorganized txt file. I vaguely remember using some Ms office program over a decade ago when is was doing computer sales to organize story ideas, possibly it was one note. But obviously I'm not gonna pay for office. Google docs. You can put in text and then label each section using the actual Header you define in the format bat, and on the outline view it will be bookmarked to the headers. You can use header 2 under header 1 to make nested ones, too. It was super useful when I was writing my V5 homebrew book for STV.
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Apr 30, 2023 16:53
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Everyone posted:Does fault matter? Does it really matter who poo poo the bed? The bed still has poo poo in it, so if you want to sleep their, you need to clean up the poo poo first. I'm not sure they do! Demon slave pollution mutants are clearly going to increase returns in the coming quarter, and the most important thing is that all humans the world over continue to think in those terms and no others. Tolth posted:Oh, you misunderstand my angle I think, I'm saying the Technocracy are completely incompetent jokes precisely because they let it get subverted by the Wyrm and the Weaver simultaneously. The Technocracy didn't get "subverted" and it isn't a "corporate antagonist". Pentex is a corporation; the Technocracy is the world-system that allows, nay, forces corporations to exist. All three parts of the metaphysic trinity are alive and well in capitalist modernity. The reason that the Technocracy is doomed is that stuff like Pentex is just one small piece in a massive litany of reasons for humans to rise up and destroy it. It's not in any danger from spirits or whatever.
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Apr 30, 2023 17:04
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Fuzz posted:Google docs. I don't think I've ever used Google docs outside of adding my name to goon gamer lists and the like. Do you have a link to something you've done you can send? Pm is fine if you don't want a public post
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Apr 30, 2023 17:45
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Ferrinus posted:The Technocracy didn't get "subverted" and it isn't a "corporate antagonist". Pentex is a corporation; the Technocracy is the world-system that allows, nay, forces corporations to exist. All three parts of the metaphysic trinity are alive and well in capitalist modernity. I mean that is the *intent* of the Technocracy, but as discussed the actual outcome is their subversion by their own structure. They can't actually direct capitalism towards their own goals at this point. They're in no direct danger from spirits whatsoever. The triumph of Pentex isn't supernatural in the slightest - it's organisational and commercial. The system that the Technocracy have created is doomed to fail, and benefits the petty little interests of selfish entities more than it does any grand philosophy at all. There is no coherent end state, and Entropy wins.
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Apr 30, 2023 18:50
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Pentex is just not important to Mage! It's not relevant to the Ascension war and might, at most, serve as an easter egg for game line superfans. Corporate polluters are just one of many reasons that living under Technocratic domination sucks; they aren't dangers to the Technocracy itself nor particularly demonstrative of the Technocracy is weak or vulnerable. If you're like, ohhh, the Technocrats just hate oil spills so much but they can't stop them  it's too hard you've been rooked.
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Apr 30, 2023 19:02
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The Banishers were right.
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Apr 30, 2023 19:56
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Soonmot posted:I don't think I've ever used Google docs outside of adding my name to goon gamer lists and the like. Do you have a link to something you've done you can send? Pm is fine if you don't want a public post Sent you a PM.
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Apr 30, 2023 19:57
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Ferrinus posted:Pentex is just not important to Mage! It's not relevant to the Ascension war and might, at most, serve as an easter egg for game line superfans. Corporate polluters are just one of many reasons that living under Technocratic domination sucks; they aren't dangers to the Technocracy itself nor particularly demonstrative of the Technocracy is weak or vulnerable. If you're like, ohhh, the Technocrats just hate oil spills so much but they can't stop them The Technocracy as a system produces a situation where Pentex thrives. Agent Jackoff and Agent Wanker think that fomor is a reality deviant and will put three rounds in his head.
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Apr 30, 2023 20:03
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It's also worth mentioning that the Technocracy in an altered form could absolutely exist without capitalism. The Syndicate would become something like Central Planning, and operate on a controlled economy model.
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Apr 30, 2023 21:27
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Soonmot posted:What programs do you use to organize your notes to run games. Kumu has been great for keeping track of npcs and their relationships. But my story notes are currently a disorganized txt file. I vaguely remember using some Ms office program over a decade ago when is was doing computer sales to organize story ideas, possibly it was one note. But obviously I'm not gonna pay for office. I’ve been using obsidian.md for it (and gradually everything else). It’s not open source but all the files are flat markdown files on your hard drive, so you’re not technically tied to the software. It has a cool feature that visualizes wiki-style links between files, which lets you build character relationship webs, tie clues or scenes or locations together, etc, and quickly move between stuff. I also write up GM screens in it. Every time I read a game book I shrink the rules down into a clickable summary with everything I need to run a game. It has a ton of user-created plugins that help with tabletop games, too. Most of them are D&D focused but I imagine with a bit of tinkering you could adapt them to WoD too.
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May 1, 2023 02:49
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that looks great too. I'm looking for tutorials on google docs tomorrow to see if I can create internal wiki style links, but the backlinks feature on that looks like a good alternative.
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May 1, 2023 09:07
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Update on game tools, Fuzz showed me some stuff with google docs and it's almost perfect. I have an outline column, I can internally link, the only drawback is that I can't collapse the outline like in a good pdf bookmark system. This is apparently a feature people have been asking for for like a decade and can't be accomplished through an extension. Still, this is a lot better organized that my dumb txt file. I don't know why I'm going so hard on a file only I'll ever see, but whatevs, it's a fun project.  Edit: I still have like ten NPCs from the recent Elysium session to add to my relationship map, this poo poo is out of control https://kumu.io/soonmot/santa-sangre#santa-sangre-npcs Soonmot fucked around with this message at 23:53 on May 1, 2023 |
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May 1, 2023 23:50
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Could I get that Google Docs tutorial as well? I've been trying to create a living city for my HtV game using World Anvil, but the Google Docs idea might just be better (I can still link to the maps in World Anvil). On that note, does anyone know of any modules that take place in a modern setting and feature PCs exploring a secret occult base of sorts? It doesn't matter what system, I'm just looking for maps, and room descriptions I can slot into my games. Finding a large supply of good modern maps is kind of a bitch, and Cthulhu Architect just had a kid, so they're not making anything new for at least several more months. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 02:39 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 02:37
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Soonmot posted:Update on game tools, Fuzz showed me some stuff with google docs and it's almost perfect. I have an outline column, I can internally link, the only drawback is that I can't collapse the outline like in a good pdf bookmark system. This is apparently a feature people have been asking for for like a decade and can't be accomplished through an extension. Still, this is a lot better organized that my dumb txt file. Niiiice, looks great!
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May 2, 2023 03:09
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Anonymous Zebra posted:On that note, does anyone know of any modules that take place in a modern setting and feature PCs exploring a secret occult base of sorts? It doesn't matter what system, I'm just looking for maps, and room descriptions I can slot into my games. Finding a large supply of good modern maps is kind of a bitch, and Cthulhu Architect just had a kid, so they're not making anything new for at least several more months. Delta Green might be up your alley. It's about fighting unnatural horrors in the modern world. I can't recommend anything specific, since I'm a player in a DG campaign so I haven't personally looked at anything except the player's guide.
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May 2, 2023 16:00
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 Statement from WoD team. At least they caught it before print this time. I seriously think like 90% of their dumbass snafus would be solved by just hiring some decent loving Editors,  .
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May 2, 2023 19:23
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I still have to agree with whoever pointed out that it's bizarre that their depiction of a group of Werewolves is four people just standing around. I still don't understand how any of those pictures go with the text of the document. The art-style they've chosen to go with is going to be full of these kinds of gently caress-ups, because they are essentially just using slightly stylized depictions of human photographs, which means that it's impossible for an editor to to catch this stuff unless they themselves recognize the real person that is being depicted. I didn't recognize Tāme Wairere Iti because I didn't really know about him before this happened, so I doubt that some random editor is going to have the ability to catch all of these before they hit print.
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May 2, 2023 21:28
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Could I get that Google Docs tutorial as well? I've been trying to create a living city for my HtV game using World Anvil, but the Google Docs idea might just be better (I can still link to the maps in World Anvil). Wasn't a tutorial so much as linking me to a work they already did so I can see what was possible. Basically the headers are what you use to nest content, and "Add a link" allows you to link to your headers. PM me your email and I can add you to my file if you want to look, but it's pretty intuitive because I'm a big idiot adhd old guy now and figured it out quick
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May 2, 2023 21:30
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Anonymous Zebra posted:I still have to agree with whoever pointed out that it's bizarre that their depiction of a group of Werewolves is four people just standing around. I still don't understand how any of those pictures go with the text of the document. The thing that gets me is that the "a few people standing around" style can work well enough if it's for a splat whose thematic hook is pretty much entirely aesthetic. It can work for Vampire, because the whole appeal of playing a Toreador is that they're the artsy vampires, and having a good spread of artsy vampires gets the vibe across properly. Same with the Noble Vampires and Rebel Vampires and Monstrous Vampires and so on. Part of the fantasy is looking like a cool vampire. Werewolf... doesn't have that. The tribes are all focused on "we are from X, and we care about Y", there is no aesthetic hook you can focus on that isn't just a vaguely insulting stereotype. And sure, werewolves have a long history of being featured in romance novels, but all the tribes have the same "standing shirtless in the moonlight" appeal. There isn't an interesting variety from tribe to tribe. Nothing about them aesthetically is a selling point. Really, there's two benefits to this. 1) A lineup of random people is really easy to commission, especially compared to a dozen unique werewolves embodying their tribe's theme. 2) You can easily have a wide variety of representation, which is good when one of the goals of this edition seems to be making the tribes less of an ethnostate. But in terms of inspiration? They don't add much. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 21:52 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 21:49
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Anonymous Zebra posted:I still have to agree with whoever pointed out that it's bizarre that their depiction of a group of Werewolves is four people just standing around. I still don't understand how any of those pictures go with the text of the document. Honestly, based on my experience with it, I feel like a lot of it is just easier/cheaper art as they commission someone to, as usual, take some reference photos and trace them. At least of the art shown so far nothing looks overtly AI generated and it's a lot of the same artists as from the Vampire books, but honestly it's only a matter of time before the bulk of the art in these sorts of projects is just AI generated.
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May 2, 2023 22:09
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