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JustJeff88 posted:Blizzard has always been a company that comes across to me as extremely pretentious and smug, and I think that their 'one true way' game design is rather indicative of that. I've played plenty of other RTS and TBS games that have significant customisation options. One that leaps to mind is Empire Earth, which is a very epic game in scope and underrated in my view. Again, I'm fine with the existance of a default/standard, but make it simple for people to try other things. Revolver is clearly a fanboy mark type who isn't going to admit that sliders/toggles were simple editions that should have been included from the off, and there's no real point in engaging with such a person. I imagine that I would find many similar attitudes on the major forums for Blizzard games. Edit: gently caress it not worth it. You are a dumb rear end in a top hat making ludicrous assumptions and not worth engaging with. RevolverDivider fucked around with this message at 03:36 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 03:14
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Quit gettin mad at videogames
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May 2, 2023 03:18
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JustJeff88 posted:Blizzard has always been a company that comes across to me as extremely pretentious and smug, and I think that their 'one true way' game design is rather indicative of that. I've played plenty of other RTS and TBS games that have significant customisation options. One that leaps to mind is Empire Earth, which is a very epic game in scope and underrated in my view. Again, I'm fine with the existance of a default/standard, but make it simple for people to try other things. Revolver is clearly a fanboy mark type who isn't going to admit that sliders/toggles were simple editions that should have been included from the off, and there's no real point in engaging with such a person. I imagine that I would find many similar attitudes on the major forums for Blizzard games. Chill a bit, bruv.
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May 2, 2023 03:44
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If you want more money, you can type "show me the money" into the in-game chat. There's even a toggle-able easy mode accessible in the same way.
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May 2, 2023 04:12
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painedforever posted:I haven't played a bunch of SC2, but I have noticed that the stages seem to be set up very distinctly, with piles of minerals placed so that you can place the base "just there", and you can have a line of harvesting units "just here", and everything set-up all efficiently. Nah, I played SC2 through just recently - like finished about a week ago - and the campaign is extremely player-friendly even on Normal difficulty, never mind Easy. It is very accessible and the idea that you can't play for fun and the story is just wrong. Plus optimal placement for resource collecting was something done a lot in SC1, just that SC2 informs you about it better. Like there's plenty to give it hell over, but its gameplay is actually no-poo poo really good and wants you to have your level of fun as much as it can.
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May 2, 2023 04:17
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One funny quirk of Starcraft's cheats is that the god mode cheat doesn't actually make your units take no damage. It just completely disables all damage dealt by the AI. This can cause certain scripted sequences to outright break due to two AI factions being unable to damage each other. Later games fix this, but also cheapen things even more by making all your units deal one-hit kills.
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May 2, 2023 04:17
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disposablewords posted:Nah, I played SC2 through just recently - like finished about a week ago - and the campaign is extremely player-friendly even on Normal difficulty, never mind Easy. It is very accessible and the idea that you can't play for fun and the story is just wrong. Plus optimal placement for resource collecting was something done a lot in SC1, just that SC2 informs you about it better. Yeah for all my gripes about how insanely hilariously bad SC2's plot and writing is the campaign is pretty much the most fun I've ever had in an RTS short of WC3 custom games. There's so much cool poo poo and customization to every element on it and the level design is top notch. Even when LotV falters a bit at times it still has some of the most fun levels I've ever played in an RTS.
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May 2, 2023 04:24
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As far as the sc1 campaigns go a lot of the resources are placed in a way where you really can't get optimal access to them, at least not both vespene and minerals from one building.
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May 2, 2023 07:08
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GodFish posted:As far as the sc1 campaigns go a lot of the resources are placed in a way where you really can't get optimal access to them, at least not both vespene and minerals from one building.  Shoutout to New Gettysburg, where minerals and gas are on opposite sides of the screen.
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May 2, 2023 07:13
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JustJeff88 posted:Blizzard has always been a company that comes across to me as extremely pretentious and smug, and I think that their 'one true way' game design is rather indicative of that. I've played plenty of other RTS and TBS games that have significant customisation options. One that leaps to mind is Empire Earth, which is a very epic game in scope and underrated in my view. Again, I'm fine with the existance of a default/standard, but make it simple for people to try other things. Revolver is clearly a fanboy mark type who isn't going to admit that sliders/toggles were simple editions that should have been included from the off, and there's no real point in engaging with such a person. I imagine that I would find many similar attitudes on the major forums for Blizzard games. Nah buddy, I also think your complaints are dumb and that seems to be 95% of your posts in here.
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May 2, 2023 07:38
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painedforever posted:I haven't played a bunch of SC2, but I have noticed that the stages seem to be set up very distinctly, with piles of minerals placed so that you can place the base "just there", and you can have a line of harvesting units "just here", and everything set-up all efficiently. It's preferable to having to spend time at the beginning of the mission repositioning or building extra command buildings to get some acceptable resource gathering going. I suspect you're in a minority if you like dealing with mission starts like the one below. BisbyWorl posted:
If memory serves this is a somewhat random design issue in the vanilla SC1 campaigns that gets better in the expansion.
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May 2, 2023 10:34
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Laughing Zealot posted:It's preferable to having to spend time at the beginning of the mission repositioning or building extra command buildings to get some acceptable resource gathering going. I suspect you're in a minority if you like dealing with mission starts like the one below.
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May 2, 2023 16:33
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BisbyWorl posted:
This is pretty much what I was thinking of. I think I do prefer this sort of mission start. I like the idea that resourcing is a part of the game, and that resources won't always be in the most optimum place. It doesn't feel "realistic" to me (and yes, I am aware of what I just said) that all of the resources are going to be in this perfect place three paces away from where I want my main base to be. But then, I do prefer the base-building and setting up of strategy games than the actual killing and dying. Very much a "me" problem, I accept.
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May 3, 2023 20:35
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Sim City with turrets is a common RTS playstyle, I've found that I particularly like it when turtling is particularly workable and the maps are large and traversable enough that bypassing is also workable. Which is the exact opposite of the Blizz RTS way. I respect what they do, but I really don't like them.
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May 3, 2023 21:02
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painedforever posted:This is pretty much what I was thinking of. I liked the setting up resources part in games like The Settlers (I haven't played new release in ages, but from quick googling around, Ubisoft now makes them?  ) but for competitive multiplayer games I prefer the gamey-but-easy-to-balance approach. Having uniform start makes maps easier to balance, and also provides some advantages in forcing gameplay to happen in specific place (you have a static place to fight over, see most of the C&C games for the opposite take on this).
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May 3, 2023 22:58
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For the way StarCraft is designed I way prefer more organized starts and clear counts of what number of workers fits a mineral field. It drove me nuts as a kid not understanding how to properly set up my workers.
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May 4, 2023 00:00
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BisbyWorl posted:
I always floated the CC over to the minerals and just ran a couple extra scvs out to the gas. Is that not the right move here?
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May 4, 2023 01:00
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TheLoquid posted:I always floated the CC over to the minerals and just ran a couple extra scvs out to the gas. Is that not the right move here? I did either that or just straight up built a second CC closer to the gas lol
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May 4, 2023 01:34
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painedforever posted:I think I do prefer this sort of mission start. I like the idea that resourcing is a part of the game, and that resources won't always be in the most optimum place. there's something to be said for reliability in base expansion areas because it makes the risk/reward of setting one up a lot more straightforward to manage when you're also trying to manage 25 other things in a pvp match. It's a tradeoff, of course. I think for the type of game starcraft is, they made the right choice by and large. For another RTS, it could easily be the wrong choice. and of course, it matters a lot more in a PVP or multiplayer situation than in a campaign. Also as shown here.  Psion fucked around with this message at 03:12 on May 4, 2023 |
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May 4, 2023 03:09
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I was watching some Terran vs Terran matches recently - are 'bio' units in that matchup basically a non-entity? Every match I've seen has been vultures/mines and tanks versus more v/m & t with a few goliaths in case of a need for air cover and perhaps a science vessel for detection. T vs Z games were more... dynamic.
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May 4, 2023 14:54
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e: gently caress
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May 4, 2023 15:10
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Marines get two-shot by Vultures and absolutely pulped by Spider Mines and Siege Tanks so they’re pretty useless in TvT outside of your initial defense. Firebats also deal very little damage to mech units due to their size, and Siege Mode outranges Lockdown even if you were crazy enough to try Ghosts.TvT has a reputation for being slow and chess-like, but it can still be aggressive and dynamic when mass Vulture, Wraiths, and Dropships are in play.
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May 4, 2023 15:11
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Chillgamesh posted:Marines get two-shot by Vultures and absolutely pulped by Spider Mines and Siege Tanks so they’re pretty useless in TvT outside of your initial defense. Firebats also deal very little damage to mech units due to their size, and Siege Mode outranges Lockdown even if you were crazy enough to try Ghosts.TvT has a reputation for being slow and chess-like, but it can still be aggressive and dynamic when mass Vulture, Wraiths, and Dropships are in play. I've definitely underappreciated Vultures in my (very limited) play experience. I've always gone from Marine (and F-bats, if Zerg opponent) to Tanks and Goliaths. I'm a sucker for mechs, so I've always overvalued Goliaths. I realise now that they are rubbish against ground forces and are used to control the skies. I've also learned the value of Science Vessels as more than just detection. What role do Wraiths play as opposed to Goliaths? I know that one flies and the other does not, but both units have poor ground weapons but excellent anti-air. Is it just a question of the superior manoeuvrability/pathing of a flying unit?
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May 4, 2023 17:10
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Transport killing. Incredibly important in TvT and TvP and Wraiths do it much better then Goliaths.
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May 4, 2023 19:32
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Most air-to-ground doesn't do a lot of damage so between that and the goliath air range upgrade, plus the fact that goliaths cost half the gas compared to wraiths, goliaths are generally the superior option for anti-air duties. Where wraiths excel is chasing faster targets like transports down and doing harassing attacks against key targets using their great mobility and cloaking.
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May 4, 2023 19:47
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JustJeff88 posted:I've definitely underappreciated Vultures in my (very limited) play experience. I've always gone from Marine (and F-bats, if Zerg opponent) to Tanks and Goliaths. I'm a sucker for mechs, so I've always overvalued Goliaths. I realise now that they are rubbish against ground forces and are used to control the skies. I've also learned the value of Science Vessels as more than just detection. Vultures are incredibly powerful as they can do runbys killing SCVs, tank the enemy siege tank shots so that your own siege tanks can get into position, kill stuff with mines, slow down the enemy with mines, force the enemy to move or micro with mines, and provide map vision with mines.
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May 5, 2023 00:00
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I never liked Vultures, and I guess that was a mistake. I'd always tech towards the biggest and most expensive unit, and try and spam those.
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May 5, 2023 04:55
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Yeah, the three spider mines with a free bike attached for 75 minerals is already a steal, but the bike is loving good too.
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May 5, 2023 11:11
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painedforever posted:I never liked Vultures, and I guess that was a mistake.  Vultures definitely have the biggest difference between “how much they got used casually in campaign” (limited mines? no anti-air? average damage? pass!) and “how important they are in competitive” (key part of basically every Terran build)
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May 5, 2023 11:19
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I have learned from this thread that the list of key competitive play units and units I never bothered using have a ton of overlap.
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May 5, 2023 18:25
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Grand Fromage posted:I have learned from this thread that the list of key competitive play units and units I never bothered using have a ton of overlap. disregard micro play, embrace a-move
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May 5, 2023 18:34
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ah, so always play Protoss then 
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May 5, 2023 21:57
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*always play mass mutalisk then
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May 5, 2023 22:34
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... and then we find out, years later, that the huge super units that we loved that seemed so incredible see limited or no use: carriers, battlecruisers and ultralisks while the cheap rank-and-file like Mutalisks are spawned by the thousands.
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May 5, 2023 22:55
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Unit Spotlight: Overlord The Overlord as seen in the manual. Overview: Overlords cost 100 minerals and can be morphed from a Larva without any pre-existing structures. It’s a large unit with 200 HP, 0 armour, and no means of defending itself. Most importantly, it costs no supply whatsoever and instead provides eight supply. It’s got a speed of 0.87 which makes it the slowest unit in the game by a considerable margin, but it does have an impressive sight radius of 9 which, combined with the unit’s Detector abilities, makes it a good aerial scout. As we’ve seen, the Overlord’s got three upgrades, all researched from the Lair. We’ve got Pneumatized Carapace, which for 150 of each resource boosts the Overlord’s speed by 300% to a… still pretty slow 3.3. That being said, the upgraded Overlord feels faster than it is. I can’t find any hard data on this, but it seems that it has high acceleration, reaching its top speed very quickly. In fact I sometimes find it hard to tell when an Overlord is accelerating. Maybe that’s just me. Another 150 minerals and vespene will get you Antennae, which increases the Overlord’s sight range from 9 to 11, tied for highest in the game. This is an odd one. It’s something that’s nice to have, but also you can make do without it so unless you’re facing an enemy that’s making heavy use of cloaking (like, say, the Dark Templar in mission 8) it can be hard to justify researching it until you’re swimming in resources. And finally, for 200 minerals and vespene you can get Ventral Sacs, an upgrade that allows the Overlord to transport units just like a Dropship does. Being able to transform your fleet of floating Supply Depots into transports makes circumventing terrain obstacles much easier for the Zerg.  Overlords hovering over Kerrigan's chrysalis, from back in mission 3. Fluff: Most Zerg units are pretty light on fluff. I think their fluff is cool, but mostly because of the way that it hints at a much larger universe than what we ever see in game. It’s neat to know that somewhere out there was a bunch of things called Mantis Screamers and the Zerg assimilated them, but it does mean that the lore for the Mutalisk is just “Yeah, it’s a Mantis Screamer. But Zergified.” Overlords are an exception to this. Blizzard has given us a lot of fluff for Overlords. The Gargantis Proximae are unique for being the only creature to willingly join the Swarm. They were giant, intelligent, and telepathic. Unfortunately for them, they were also herbivores, and their part of the sector was running out of the foliage suitable for sustaining their massive bodies. So they contacted the Overmind psionically and offered to join the Swarm; Zerg-ifying the Gargantis Proximae would provide them with the nutrients they needed to avoid starvation (from the Creep, I guess?), while their telepathic abilities would make it easier for the Overmind to exert control over individual Zerg. Thus the Overlord was born. Assimilation of the space-faring creatures is also what gave the Overmind the insight needed to re-engineer Zerg physiology to be able to survive the rigours of deep space. Interestingly enough, the Starcraft 1 manual is a little ambiguous about this, not directly stating whether the giant space-faring creatures the Overmind used to boost its research of Space Flight are the same as the ones that became the Overlords, but later Blizzard material clarifies that they are the same, and as it makes sense and doesn’t contradict anything in SC1 I’m rolling with it. You’ll notice the Overlord has little tentacles that look like legs protruding from its body. These are actually kind of psionic antennae, and they’re how it communicates with other Zerg. The implication is that every time you, say, tell a Larva to morph into a Hydralisk, you’re actually telling the Overlord and the Overlord is relaying that to the Larva, all at the speed of thought.  This screenshot from the cinematic from last mission's update gives an idea of the size of Overlords vs other Zerg flyers. Tech Fluff: Researching Ventral Sacs causes the Overlord to literally create large, fleshy chambers in their underbody that are big enough to allow transportation of Zerg ground units. There’s no explanation of how the units get in or out of the Overlord, and… I’d really rather not ask. You might be wondering: “How do Overlords fly?” The answer is helium. Their respiratory system produces helium as waste the same way we do carbon dioxide, but instead of exhaling it the helium gets stored in little sacs, which the Overlord is then able to telekinetically control, releasing it as needed to determine altitude and velocity. So, uh, it’s not farting, but it’s not not farting. Anyway, the point is that when Pneumatized Carapace is researched, some of that helium gets instead replaced with a modified form of vespene gas, allowing the Overlord to move faster. So, uh, vespene farts. Makes the name a little weird. I mean the Overlord’s already pneumatized before you research it, and it doesn’t seem to affect the carapace at all, so… Finally, there’s Antennae. It… mutates the Overlord so they have antennae. Not much to this one. Look, you take a vaguely insectoid creature, slap some antennae on it, and it’s got heightened senses. That’s the way it works. I don’t make the rules. Usage: This section is going to look a bit different than usual just because of the nature of the Overlord. I’m not going to break it down by campaign vs competitive or by matchup, instead I’ll just cover the uses overall and note any specifics when appropriate. First, Overlords are essential parts of Zerg’s scouting game. We’ve used this a bit - positioning Overlords in key locations on the map to keep an eye out for enemy incursions - but it’s a really big deal in multiplayer. Zerg always starts with an Overlord (you may recall Command Centres provide 10 supply. Hatcheries, by contrast, only provide 1, necessitating a starting Overlord). This Overlord - along with the next ones that are made - are sent out to a spot on the map. Whether in campaign or multiplayer, you won’t often use an Overlord to scout the opponent’s main base because the slow speed means that it’ll be easily dealt with and now you’re supply blocked. Instead it’s common to place Overlords along likely attack routes to give you a head’s up when the enemy is coming your way. It’s also common to place them in likely expansion spots to give you a heads-up when the opponent takes another base. “But John Killtrane,” you might be saying, “Isn’t that a waste? Won’t the Overlord just get picked off?” Well, there’s a few factors there. First is the map itself. Remember that high ground doesn’t just cause attacks to miss, it also blocks vision: there will often be cliffs overlooking most avenues of assault, so you can position your Overlords over them and enemies won’t be able to see them without either a flying unit of their own or coming up onto the cliff. This means that with careful placement, an Overlord scouting network can be helpful even against Bio Terran and their Marine spam. Beyond that, even if the Overlord does get gunned down by Marines or Dragoons, that in itself serves as an early warning that trouble is coming your way, which can easily be worth the minerals and larva you spent on it.  4K OFFRACING FLASH (Z) vs Scan (T) on Circuit Breakers - StarCraft - Brood War - YouTube - 3-07.jpeg) Flash, off-racing here as Zerg, finds a nice spot where in between high-ground and empty space he's able to keep his Overlord safe while still scoping out what Terran is up to. At the pro level, you’ll also sometimes see the Overlord Sacrifice: You just send an Overlord trundling into the enemy’s main base, hoping that it can get you the recon you need before it dies. The reason you’ll mostly only see this from pros isn’t because sending your Overlord on a suicide mission takes skill, but rather because you need to be extremely familiar with the ins-and-outs of the game and its meta in order to be able to meaningfully parse the intel you receive. Otherwise you’ve wasted an Overlord just to be able to say “Okay, Terran’s getting a second Factory. That means… something.”  That Overlord is doomed, but hopefully it'll get enough intel to make it worth it for the Zerg player. As an aside, I normally try to grab screencaps from recent games but I took this one from the official Blizzard strategy guide, because nostalgia is a hell of a drug. For us in the campaign, Overlord sacrifices are never worth it. As we’ve seen, the AI follows some pretty specific patterns and we can normally tell what they’re doing techwise by what they attack with, and in any case they’ve always got enough “defensive units” that just hang around the base that Parasites can give us all the intel we’ll need. This also reduces the need for Overlord scouting in general. Remember mission 8, for example, when Zeratul had those couple of Dragoons that hung out between his base and ours? We Parasite’d them and boom. Great intel, no need to risk an Overlord. And “risk” is the operative word here: While it’s not something you’ll see every game, it’s also not uncommon for Terran and Protoss players to whip up some air superiority units and go Overlord hunting. High ground and careful positioning can keep your Overlords safe from Marines and Goliaths, but Wraiths are a different story. And of course this is a triple threat: It denies you scouting, it reduces your supply, and it eliminates your detection, allowing cloaked Wraiths and Dark Templar to work with impunity. Keeping Overlords safe from this sort of thing is one of the many, many uses of both Mutas and Scourge. And that brings us to the upgrades. Pneumatized Carapace is a relatively common one since increased speed makes everything the Overlords do easier, from covering the map to escaping enemy fire. Antennae, like I said above, is pretty niche. Ventral Sacs is the weird one. Drop play just isn’t all that big a thing for Zerg? A lot of Zerg units are maneuverable enough already. If you want to harass an expansion why bother with Overlords when you can just fly in Mutas or do a Zergling run-by? Occasionally in late-game TvZ you might see Overlords used if Terran’s managed to entrench themselves and Zerg wants to circumvent that. You may also see them used if Zerg wants to use some of its less-mobile units to harass or do a pincer attack - Defilers, Lurkers, and Ultras are your main candidates for this (“But I thought Ultras will become super fast?” They will, but they’ll also continue to be super fat and therefore easy to wall out, which prevents them doing run-bys like Zerglings can). Still, pretty rare. Five Minutes Shorter: As difficult as it may be to believe, there is an Overlord hero. It’s called Yggdrasil and with a whopping 1000 HP and 4 armour it’s got unprecedented durability. Not even the Norad II was as tough as this strain. Aside from that it’s just a normal Overlord - oh, except it provides 30 supply instead of 8. What an odd unit. We never see it in any Blizzard campaign but it’s there in the editor and makes its eventual debut in Insurrection. Trivia: According to the Starcraft wiki, the noises the Overlord makes come from blending the voice actor with recorded audio of a horse. And that's it for the Zerg spotlights! Hopefully by the end of the weekend I'll have their final mission up and then we can plunge into the Protoss campaign.
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May 6, 2023 13:55
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Zerg doom drops are a thing, even though they could be very rare in some metas. Versus Terran Mecha builds, for example, loading 12 overlords with hydras and zerglings and dropping them on the Terran's main base as they roll out to attack could win the game for zerg. Though I have no idea if they are still used on today's current meta, as I stopped following the pro scene over 10 years ago.
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May 6, 2023 14:22
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MagusofStars posted:
I agree, but! I've discovered through doing this LP, specifically through Terran mission 10, that Vultures are more useful in the campaign than I gave them credit for. Low cost, quick build time, low-ish on tech tree, and high move speed means you can use them to move out on the map and apply pressure early, which can often hamstring the campaign AI, and offensive mining can be a great way to handle the way the AI sometimes likes to set up big defensive units like Siege Tanks, Ultras, and Reavers. I'm looking forward to the BW campaign so I can take this theory out for a spin and see if I've been missing out all these years. Kanthulhu posted:Zerg doom drops are a thing, even though they could be very rare in some metas. Versus Terran Mecha builds, for example, loading 12 overlords with hydras and zerglings and dropping them on the Terran's main base as they roll out to attack could win the game for zerg. As far as I'm aware, they're fairly rare in the current meta. Or at least, I can't remember seeing one in quite a while. That being said, I've mostly been watching ASL, where there's maybe less tendency to experiment because there's money on the line? I should maybe try to find the time to follow more streams since that's where the cutting-edge stuff happens.
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May 6, 2023 14:27
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For recent tournament play, Zerg drops were pretty rare because a) the maps played didn't really require it or b) they got outplayed on the maps it would've been useful and resources went to other things (or the match was already over)
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May 6, 2023 16:23
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So either they breathe in enough to acquire a significant amount of helium from breathing in alone, which really should give them jet style propulsion from the mass flow alone, or they carry biological fusion reactors to generate it from air intake. Sometimes it's better to let people imagine a fart propulsion system.
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May 6, 2023 17:24
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Honestly hydrogen makes a lot more sense than helium for that. It's readily available in normal biological processes and even lighter. It would have the downside of implying overlords are explosive but I would argue that that's rad actually.
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May 6, 2023 18:03
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