(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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Ferrinus posted:i think that, given that he employs no one and just works his little plot, the farmer here is a worker but not a proletarian im going to put you in a little plot
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May 2, 2023 11:27
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youtube took down hate amerikkka type beat... gently caress
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May 2, 2023 11:34
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Cuttlefush posted:youtube took down hate amerikkka type beat... gently caress wtf
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May 2, 2023 11:35
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StashAugustine posted:The cooption of Darwinism by eugenic reactionaries, notably the Nazis, did discourage its adoption in the USSR CGI Stardust posted:it's been a while since i read these books, but: V. Illych L. posted:it's worth noting that some of lysenko's theories have been seeing something of a renewed interest with the rise of the omics era, at least according to a grass guy i know. the issue is that lysenko's work was somewhat over-interpreted in the highly charged world of soviet agricultural science and that they just completely lacked a good theoretical framework for explaining his observations, so things went a bit off the rails in ways which were highly useful as anti-communist propaganda. basically what seems to have happened is that lysenko had some seriously counter-paradigmatic observations and that those were interpreted in lamarckian terms because that was the framework available to people, and this combined with the very high stakes and the whole project of soviet modernism made for a somewhat grim spin on things. V. Illych L. posted:rejecting mendelian genetics is deeply weird even in the context of the day, though (mendel himself almost certainly fudged his data a little, but his experiments are straightforwardly reproducible and will give the same conclusion mendel drew). one must, however, remember that this is before anyone has any real idea of what a gene is supposed to be. the great geneticists are all about the same age as lysenko and operating under entirely different circumstances. so, lysenko's coming up in a world where the modern synthesis of evolutionary theory really hasn't happened yet and has a bunch of apparently anti-mendelian observations in a world where mendelian genetics have a very strong eugenicist and racialist flavour to them, making them politically suspect. finer minds than lysenko have screwed up under similar circumstances with much less at stake (lord kelvin being a notable example) Thank you for all this, fascinating stuff and connects a lot of dots.
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May 2, 2023 11:39
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reduced to https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2prpfa  Sunny Side Up posted:Speaking of class analysis, does anyone have strong opinions on Divided World, Divided Class by Zak Cope? i swear this came up in the thread before but i can't find anything now. i haven't read zak cope but settler-colonial/labor aristocracy stuff should be read and then mostly not acted on, i think. that's kind of bad phrasing but there's a tendency for some people to get stuck on "organizing is useless because labor aristocracy/us too strong" and mayoist third condimentism. i'm not going to do a good job explaining my thoughts here. i thought croup wrote a bunch on this before but i can't find it.
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May 2, 2023 11:56
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once again taking any opportunity to plug richard "the dialectical biologist" lewontin  croup coughfield posted:then you're a lumpenproletarian throwing in your lot with the revolution. isn't the lumpenproletariat consistently defined as a subcategory of the proletariat, basically in attitudinal terms? i.e. people who make a living from certain forms of socially marginalised work (regardless of legality) are disincentivised from achieving class consciousness. i don't see how papa joe robbing trains to fund the revolution falls into that category.
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May 2, 2023 12:16
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exmarx posted:once again taking any opportunity to plug richard "the dialectical biologist" lewontin he was a gangster first, I thought
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May 2, 2023 12:20
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lumpenproletariats were the vagrants, vagabonds, and itinerant poor that don’t really exist anymore outside of agriculture
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May 2, 2023 12:24
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lumpenproletariats were the vagrants, vagabonds, and itinerant poor that don’t really exist anymore outside of agriculture go to any downtown area in any city in america and tell me there's no vagrants, vagabonds, or itinerant poor.
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May 2, 2023 12:25
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Raskolnikov38 posted:lumpenproletariats were the vagrants, vagabonds, and itinerant poor that don’t really exist anymore outside of agriculture ???
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May 2, 2023 12:29
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croup coughfield posted:go to any downtown area in any city in america and tell me there's no vagrants, vagabonds, or itinerant poor. the terms have shifted a bit from the 19th century, or at least 19th US, where it was more of exceedingly mobile group of people that labored outside their “natural” communities. vagrants and vagabonds by Kristin O'Brassill-Kulfan is an interesting book on how laborers with no fixed residence in the early republic were targeted because they provided labor outside of where elites thought they should
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May 2, 2023 12:34
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its different because they're stamping license plates in prison instead of picking oakum in the workhouses.
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May 2, 2023 12:34
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thank god theres no more itinerant poor in america
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May 2, 2023 12:39
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croup coughfield posted:thank god theres no more itinerant poor in america well that’s why I put “the except in agriculture” clause. farm laborers are the one part of the term that’s largely unchanged in the past 200 years
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May 2, 2023 12:41
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i do a bunch of my mutual aid work in this location specifically because of the lack of vagrants and vagabonds
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May 2, 2023 12:43
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a bit late to the core of the discussion but the way I like to frame it is that you can be a worker that is paid a high wage, and you'd still be a worker until and unless you use those wages to purchase yourself some capital, at which point you become a capitalist and this is still true for people who might have a trust fund or an inheritance waiting for them - if you can't tap into that capital just yet, and then you're still a worker. If your dad croaks tomorrow and leaves you the company, then you're a capitalist now, it's possible that the expectation of being able to have that trust fund or inheritance shapes one's politics in a particular pro-capitalist direction, but that's not really new: it's analogous to croup mentioning how 401k's can get workers to become invested in capitalism, and is not fundamentally different from the "temporarily-embarassed millionaires" concept of workers aligning with capital because your politics are not predestined according to your position on the pecking order
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May 2, 2023 12:44
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mawarannahr posted:they absolutely can occupy multiple class positions. Yeah this part of Vol 1 helped clarify it for me by thinking of it as "x is a capitalist in the context of this transaction." So someone can get most of their means of subsistence from wages but still be a capitalist within the context of their 401k or IRA trying to realize more value than was initially invested.
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May 2, 2023 12:50
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I was looking for something and found this poem Marx wrote in his teens. lol To My Neighbour Across the Street quote:She stares at me from over yonder 
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May 2, 2023 12:53
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lmfao my man
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May 2, 2023 12:56
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croup coughfield posted:the people who win the lottery and lose it all within five years and are back working at the call center are the most proletarian motherfuckers on earth. hey, this reminded me of a conversation I had a while back: what is the actual thing a leftist should do if they win the lottery or inherit a ton of money or whatever? dude who brought it up said you should just do all the normal investment stuff, live off the interest, and that's not buying into the power structure because you still think correctly and you'll be on the right side if that structure is challenged. I don't think most people would have it in them to act against the structure at that point, but he wasn't satisfied with me saying "idk, pay your debts and then give it where it's needed?" because you'll run out of money before you run out of where it's needed. In Training posted:i picked up blackshirts and reds recently, heard nothing but high high praise. Looking forward to it enjoy it! more clicked for me reading blackshirts and reds than reading anything else, outside of lenin when I was just getting started.
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May 2, 2023 13:16
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lol at the dude who believes that rightthink determines class. anyway personally i wouldn't give it away, either - at least most of it. i would buy and develop a large plot of land near a city i expect to have a reliable water supply for the foreseeable future for use as a commune, first and foremost. once the commune is populated and we're ticking along with our own sustainable means of production (whatever that might be), its time to start buying property in the city for use as community centers, organizing halls, etc. additional funds plus the revenue from the commune can fund additional worker co-ops and communes, branch orgs, etc.
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May 2, 2023 13:32
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i was going to say "and then we spend the rest on guns" but maybe we should just make the guns instead. much to think about
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May 2, 2023 13:33
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yeah, that's more like where I ended up later: use the money to do all the poo poo we read about doing. in the moment when he asked I was like "surely there are orgs already out there that are prepared do all the poo poo we read about doing and just need the money, we could give it to them and get them moving" but well, lol.
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May 2, 2023 13:39
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Cuttlefush posted:reduced to https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2prpfa J. Moufawad-Paul explains that MTW trap better than anyone I’ve read and this author Zak Cope credits him in the Acknowledgements in the beginning of the book, so I’d hope it deviates from that line. Wondering if this dense tome is worth the read. I forgot about my title text lol Avs Off Crew lmao Where it actually got recommended was in one of the Gabriel Rockhill critical theory workshops this guy goes off on how the first position, not the last, of your local organizing should be into proletarian solidarity because everything grows from there and he praised this book. Sunny Side Up has issued a correction as of 13:42 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 13:39
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disaster pastor posted:yeah, that's more like where I ended up later: use the money to do all the poo poo we read about doing. in the moment when he asked I was like "surely there are orgs already out there that are prepared do all the poo poo we read about doing and just need the money, we could give it to them and get them moving" but well, lol. ive met some very serious folks who claim to be ready and willing to do real work if they only had the cash. could probably toss them some cash and see what happens as a side project
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May 2, 2023 13:46
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croup coughfield posted:ive met some very serious folks who claim to be ready and willing to do real work if they only had the cash. could probably toss them some cash and see what happens as a side project -- osama bin laden
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May 2, 2023 13:46
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croup coughfield posted:ive met some very serious folks who claim to be ready and willing to do real work if they only had the cash. could probably toss them some cash and see what happens as a side project yeah def, but like, doing research and asking around and finding these folks. I'd probably go to a JBGC or something similar and say "here's some cash, who else do you think should get some?" not just throw $whatever at the PSL and expect poo poo to work out croup coughfield posted:-- osama bin laden or at this guy. bad vibes imo.
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May 2, 2023 13:52
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gradenko_2000 posted:a bit late to the core of the discussion but the way I like to frame it is that yep gradenko_2000 posted:now, it's possible that the expectation of being able to have that trust fund or inheritance shapes one's politics in a particular pro-capitalist direction, but that's not really new: it's analogous to croup mentioning how 401k's can get workers to become invested in capitalism, and is not fundamentally different from the "temporarily-embarassed millionaires" concept of workers aligning with capital because your politics are not predestined according to your position on the pecking order basically correct as per marx and also extremely out of date, because you have to explain why germany did not have a socialist successful revolution. again ir's about where you point the guns, and these people pointed them at communists to kill them
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May 2, 2023 14:15
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May 2, 2023 15:32
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hes right
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May 2, 2023 15:36
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mods change my name to vagabond geomancer
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May 2, 2023 15:40
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marxist geomancer (and thus exceptional) is my new vibe
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May 2, 2023 15:43
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christian converts
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May 2, 2023 15:44
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leaked ff x-3 dresspheres looking good
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May 2, 2023 15:49
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Are there any figures on the amount of people back then who would fall into that category compared to today? Something that is really hard to wrap my head around is the degree to which labor back then was migratory compared to today. It seems that the post WW2 settling of most non-agricultural migratory labor is a huge difference between organizing conditions then vs. now. I have no idea what the answer is, but I'm curious if the percentages stayed the same only it shifted those people out of migratory life and into the prison system or if we actually have a more locked-in work system. I can see at the edges capital pushing towards some kind of neofeudalism where the workers are locked to their location by the fetters of modern life making it harder and harder to uproot yourself and go to where the work is.
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May 2, 2023 15:56
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there is still a lot of non farm migratory labor in the USA I don’t know if it can be accurately counted as it’s mostly illegal euphronius has issued a correction as of 16:03 on May 2, 2023 |
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May 2, 2023 15:58
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Azathoth posted:Are there any figures on the amount of people back then who would fall into that category compared to today? P. Timofeev, 1906 posted:There are many skilled workers who have never seen a wooden plow and do not have the slightest idea how to plant wheat because they have lived in a town and worked in a factory for the past twenty-five to thirty years. Their only connection with the village comes when they need to obtain a passport or when they have to pay taxes for land which is nominally theirs but is actually worked by other people. The difference between "hereditary proletarians" and recent peasant migrants was a huge thing in Russia during the big wave of prerevolutionary industrialization, and the boundary between the city and the countryside remained very porous through the mid-Soviet period. Millions of people would migrate to cities for work but if things got bad and they couldn't make ends meet they would just migrate back to the village again and do subsistence agriculture for survival. By the end of the civil war and the beginning of NEP, Russian cities were mostly depopulated to like one half or even one third of their prewar populations. There is still migratory labour in the modern developed world but it's very different from historical situations where it was the majority of the working class.
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May 2, 2023 16:15
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sounds like subsistence land is a necessary bulwark against coercion
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May 2, 2023 18:52
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:sounds like subsistence land is a necessary bulwark against coercion thats why the commons were enclosed first.
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May 2, 2023 19:11
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| # ? May 23, 2024 22:05 |
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:sounds like subsistence land is a necessary bulwark against coercion Good thing we have all this subsistence land in North America! *opens cabinet labeled "Emergency Farmland - DO NOT PRIVATIZE!"* *is bare* I don't know what I expected...
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May 2, 2023 21:04
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