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Not really, no. I suspect her rise to prominence recently is due to the Grinwell cup.
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May 4, 2023 18:31
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gently caress Moiraine Get rid of her early and bring on Shohreh Aghdashloo as Cadsuane 
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May 4, 2023 21:15
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Cadsuane is equally as dumb as Moiraine, except she never learns or improves and has even less of a reason to be so cocky.
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May 4, 2023 21:19
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But her takes are so ridiculous and absurd it creates some juicy drama. And I really hope Semirhage gets spanked 
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May 4, 2023 21:39
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CainFortea posted:Cadsuane is equally as dumb as Moiraine, except she never learns or improves and has even less of a reason to be so cocky. But she's the greatest Aes Sedai! A living legend! This pathetic male channeler has to bow to her and fulfill her every whim, otherwise how can he learn to laugh again? She always annoyed me because she just wasn't that smart. The only person who saw through her bullshit was Tam, and even then she refused to learn anything.
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May 5, 2023 16:16
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Except for the fact that she was absolutely correct in her goal and strategy, just that she couldn't hope to outplay the literal Dark One and 13-14 Forsaken on the board? Like even when Brandon Sanderson came in to gently caress up all the messaging it was her maneuvering that finally gave Rand enough of a shock to force him out of just coasting along and get to the poo poo or get off the pot moment?
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May 5, 2023 16:27
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:Except for the fact that she was absolutely correct in her goal and strategy, just that she couldn't hope to outplay the literal Dark One and 13-14 Forsaken on the board? Like even when Brandon Sanderson came in to gently caress up all the messaging it was her maneuvering that finally gave Rand enough of a shock to force him out of just coasting along and get to the poo poo or get off the pot moment? No, her strategy was absolute dog poo poo. Being an rear end in a top hat to someone isn't a way to make them laugh. Regardless of any supernatural forces involved. It was never Cadsuane that got Rand to pull back. It was a fight he had within himself.
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May 5, 2023 16:54
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It was laugh at first, but became a "show any emotion" as rand got hard.
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May 5, 2023 16:59
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CainFortea posted:No, her strategy was absolute dog poo poo. Being an rear end in a top hat to someone isn't a way to make them laugh. Regardless of any supernatural forces involved. See I'd never take this kind of assertion seriously because in its application across this series it is entirely a misogynistic view that says any time a female character is not completely obeisant to the male main characters no matter how much of a loving moron they're being, they're assholes.
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May 5, 2023 16:59
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CainFortea posted:No, her strategy was absolute dog poo poo. Being an rear end in a top hat to someone isn't a way to make them laugh. Regardless of any supernatural forces involved. The fact that he almost nuked his father was the catalyst for that internal struggle. Cadsuane underestimated Rand but no one else was even putting in the effort.
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May 5, 2023 17:01
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Her plan wasn’t well thought out or implemented. Even if she thought it was a good way at first not being flexible is where she went wrong. She didn’t really do anything anyways. It was him lashing out at Tam that started to shake him. WoT is just Fast and Furious in the very distant future. He just needed his family.
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May 5, 2023 17:04
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Granted, it’s been a while since I read the books, but I can’t even remember what Cadsuane’s strategy was. Her goal, yeah, that I recall: to get Rand to emote. But what steps did she take in service of that goal, rather than in service to Rand? I’ve forgotten.
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May 5, 2023 17:04
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Cadsuane literally put Tam in front of Rand. She clearly hoped it would work differently but Rand isn't seeing Tam or having his Veins of Gold internal struggle without Cadsuane.
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May 5, 2023 17:06
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She did such things as ask min to mention things to Rand
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May 5, 2023 17:06
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What gets me real pissy is when Brandon inserts his own commentary and mucks up the messaging based on that flawed understanding--e.g. when Rand comes back and is all smug like "but really I'm the oldest Aes Sedai" when, for example, Egwene completely squishes Mesaana based on the realization that "hey, we've had it way harder than you idiots ever did".
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May 5, 2023 17:07
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"rand, don't drink that it's actually poo poo, drink this coffee that is instead harvested from cat poo poo" "I will not be manipulated!!!" Glug glug glug
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May 5, 2023 17:08
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pik_d posted:Cadsuane literally put Tam in front of Rand. She clearly hoped it would work differently but Rand isn't seeing Tam or having his Veins of Gold internal struggle without Cadsuane. So then you would agree that she wasn't absolutely correct in her goal and strategy. Make him laugh and cry came from the Wise Ones, she just heard it and agreed. And her strategy was to convince Tam to try to manipulate Rand, not just put them together. The criticism of Cadsuane isn't that her heart wasn't in the right place or whatever, but that her plan was bad and she never examined her flawed assumptions.
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May 5, 2023 17:25
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Gambor posted:So then you would agree that she wasn't absolutely correct in her goal and strategy. For sure she wasn't absolutely correct. However I do think she was among the best of the established Aes Sedai, and was instrumental in Rand turning things around and ultimately succeeding.
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May 5, 2023 17:33
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VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE posted:See I'd never take this kind of assertion seriously because in its application across this series it is entirely a misogynistic view that says any time a female character is not completely obeisant to the male main characters no matter how much of a loving moron they're being, they're assholes. What are you talking about? Her stated plan is entirely "be a jerk to show him he's not all powerful, this will teach him to remember how to laugh because <???>" You can't manipulate someone into being emotionally healthy you weirdo. And anyone's genders involved in this manipulation is immaterial to that statement. pik_d posted:The fact that he almost nuked his father was the catalyst for that internal struggle. Cadsuane underestimated Rand but no one else was even putting in the effort. Yes, it was the catalyst. But again, it wasn't about her. If it had been anyone else trying to manipulate rand through tam the same end result would have happened. And how that interaction went down wasn't according to her plan either. That's why i'm saying her plan was dumb. It didn't work.
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May 5, 2023 17:37
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It's not "about" her but she was the one actually doing poo poo. No, it didn't all go according to her plan, but no one else even had a plan. Just because she didn't successfully puppet master everything doesn't mean she doesn't deserve credit and wasn't critical to Rand's healing and ultimately winning.
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May 5, 2023 17:43
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The way I see it the issue was she misdiagnosed the problem. She thought he was a young bumpkin who got hopped up on the fact that he was suddenly turned into the most important man in the world and became arrogant and out of touch. Whereas the problem was actually that he was severely traumatized and isolating himself from the world.
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May 5, 2023 17:47
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pik_d posted:It's not "about" her but she was the one actually doing poo poo. No, it didn't all go according to her plan, but no one else even had a plan. Just because she didn't successfully puppet master everything doesn't mean she doesn't deserve credit and wasn't critical to Rand's healing and ultimately winning. Actually, no she doesn't deserve credit for her plan working, since her plan didn't work.
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May 5, 2023 17:50
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CainFortea posted:Actually, no she doesn't deserve credit for her plan working, since her plan didn't work. Where did I say she deserves credit for her plan working? You seem hellbent on giving her absolutely nothing despite the fact that without her, Rand would have either died to Fain or gone over to the Shadow.
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May 5, 2023 18:00
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Colonel Cool posted:The way I see it the issue was she misdiagnosed the problem. She thought he was a young bumpkin who got hopped up on the fact that he was suddenly turned into the most important man in the world and became arrogant and out of touch. Whereas the problem was actually that he was severely traumatized and isolating himself from the world. This is how I see it. Honestly taking Rand to her farm to do some manual labor on roses or whatever would have been the best move to get his walls down and start talking.
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May 5, 2023 18:03
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pik_d posted:Where did I say she deserves credit for her plan working? See, that's not a fact. In the story as it played out she's the one who brought in Tam, but that's only because everybody else was following her lead. There's no reason at all to think that if she hadn't been there it wouldn't have been Min saying that Rand needs to connect with the person who knew him best before all this. Or Amys thinking the Car'A'Carn needs to see the roots he lived as well as those he was born from. Or the Two Rivers sending a group to say they officially stand with the Dragon Reborn led by his father to accentuate the tie. Or any number of other things. She did a good thing on accident while trying to do a disastrous thing. And while I don't want to put the words of other people into your mouth, the fact is the side of the argument you stepped into literally called her strategy absolutely correct.
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May 5, 2023 18:17
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I thought 20 posts meant we had a release date or a trailer 
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May 5, 2023 18:23
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Yeah no her "strategy" yielded results in spite of itself. Her goals were spot on though. Her chutzpah was necessary, others followed her because they were already scared of and subservient to Rand. Sorilea is the only other one who may have been able to do something. I just think that giving her no credit and talking about her as if she should have just shut up like all the other Aes Sedai is far more incorrect than giving her full marks (which is also wrong).
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May 5, 2023 18:28
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pik_d posted:Where did I say she deserves credit for her plan working? I have literally agreed with you that cadsuane's failed plan was the catalyst for the change. I am not going to "give her credit" for that because it happened in spite of, not because, of her plan. You can't just say that she "gets credit" for it when things happened in a way that she expressed didn't want to have happen.
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May 5, 2023 18:32
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Colonel Cool posted:The way I see it the issue was she misdiagnosed the problem. She thought he was a young bumpkin who got hopped up on the fact that he was suddenly turned into the most important man in the world and became arrogant and out of touch. Whereas the problem was actually that he was severely traumatized and isolating himself from the world. This is the reason that I think Lan is the person who pushed Rand farthest towards falling to the dark.
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May 5, 2023 18:44
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Once again I am not saying to give her credit for the execution of her plan. I think she deserves credit for saving his life when Fain cut him. I think she deserves credit for not crumbling under the gaze of the Dragon like most Aes Sedai, for recognizing that he has emotional issues (even if she didn't diagnose it completely accurately), and most importantly for actually being willing to try something. She was willing to meet Sorilea as an equal when all other old Aes Sedai either looked down on the Aiel or ended up bowing to them.
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May 5, 2023 18:50
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pik_d posted:Once again I am not saying to give her credit for the execution of her plan. Did I say anything about her saving his life when fain cut him?
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May 5, 2023 18:53
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She keeps trying, and as Rand realises when facing the Dark One, they only lose when they stop trying
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May 5, 2023 18:57
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pik_d posted:others followed her because they were already scared of and subservient to Rand. Sorilea is the only other one who may have been able to do something. No, others followed her because the social custom is for Aes Sedai to do whatever the most powerful Aes Sedai says. In my counterexamples, I specifically chose people who weren't scared of Rand. Min didn't think to reach out to Tam because she thought Cadsuane had a plan to help Rand and she was worried about getting in her way about it. Amys didn't act because the Wise Ones saw Cadsuane as an ally on that front and trusted her to succeed. quote:I just think that giving her no credit and talking about her as if she should have just shut up like all the other Aes Sedai is far more incorrect than giving her full marks (which is also wrong). Gambor posted:The criticism of Cadsuane isn't that her heart wasn't in the right place or whatever, but that her plan was bad and she never examined her flawed assumptions.
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May 5, 2023 19:01
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Health Services posted:I dunno, I think you're significantly underestimating the reach and viewership of the show, and overestimating how many people have read the books at all, and more specifically, read them recently enough to remember details. I was sitting in a diner here in Queens and there were three dudes with thick as hell Texan accents all loudly agreeing that WoT was better than Ring of Power and House of the Dragon. Heavy disagree on the last one but yeah seems like it has its fans.
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May 5, 2023 19:12
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Shageletic posted:I was sitting in a diner here in Queens and there were three dudes with thick as hell Texan accents all loudly agreeing that WoT was better than Ring of Power and House of the Dragon. Heavy disagree on the last one but yeah seems like it has its fans. Hahah, that's great to hear. I'd hope that was the case though, it's the only one of the three based on an actual book and not just background notes and appendices.
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May 5, 2023 19:14
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pik_d posted:The fact that he almost nuked his father was the catalyst for that internal struggle. Cadsuane underestimated Rand but no one else was even putting in the effort. Nynaeve and Min were constantly attempting to turn Rand away from being just an emotionless brick. Their way wasn't working, so they were willing to try different things. Hell, Nynaeve, someone who has known him almost his entire life, had to almost grovel at Cadsuane's feet just to be allowed to try and help Rand with Cadsuane. Min only got brought in because she was banging him regularly and could see visions. Arrogance on that level is annoying regardless of gender. Rand needed to get some sort of help and wouldn't listen to anyone else. Taking a dude who's rightfully paranoid about being manipulated and trying to manipulate him using his own father is hosed up. Having that work out was a stroke of luck. They were both wrong in how they were doing things and until Nynaeve got to bring in Tam they were pretty screwed. I'm sorry I started this derail, I just don't like Cadsuane's actions as she's just being manipulative, arrogant and a bully. I don't like guys who do that either, and Tam's takedown of her actions was incredibly spot on. She was just a bully who lucked into bullying a dude so bad he almost killed his own father, and that caused him to do some much needed soul searching. If that's a plan, it's a lovely rear end plan but it looks exactly like what she was doing to me.
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May 5, 2023 19:20
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Neither Nynaeve nor Min were going to push Rand to truly confront his emotional issues. Min was unfortunately written as an emotional support lay who spent her time reading books to save Rand physically but not necessarily emotionally. Nynaeve was in and out of his company and ended up walking on eggshells around him in later books. The Wise Women were fairly hands off in their handling of Rand. He didn't despise them like he did the Aes Sedai but they're aren't making him change. Cadsuane is abrasive and is unwilling to take poo poo from anyone but she was vital to Rand having his coming to Jesus moment. She definitely made things worse before she made things better, but he wasn't getting better from anyone else. I honestly think this is a larger problem in the world that RJ created. There is basically no form of therapy or mental health awareness in Randland. This isn't really surprising given the setting and history, but it leads to a world where if you can't hack it, you're on your own and probably dead. I definitely agree on a lot of points, her plan sucked, she's not very likable as an individual, but I think people here opposed to her are selling her short and unwilling to admit that she was very important in Rand's journey and eventual come to Jesus moment. It's even in the text that she had to teach Rand and the Asha'man that they're men, not weapons. No one else truly stepped up when she did.
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May 5, 2023 20:38
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To me Cadsuane is the perfect embodiment of both the strengths and the flaws of the Aes Sedai. She's arrogant, stubborn, and aloof, but also competent, dedicated, and heroic. She reminds me a lot of an older, more rigid, more powerful version of Moiraine. It took Moiraine a long time to learn that she'd be much more effective if she let the perfect infallible guise drop a little, and I can't really blame Cadsuane for taking even longer to learn that lesson.
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May 5, 2023 21:01
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pik_d posted:I honestly think this is a larger problem in the world that RJ created. There is basically no form of therapy or mental health awareness in Randland. This isn't really surprising given the setting and history, but it leads to a world where if you can't hack it, you're on your own and probably dead. I've got some bad news for you about basically all of human history
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May 5, 2023 21:10
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I think the thing for me is that while Cadsuane may be able to take credit for being the one to finally set Rand off, because that turned out to be necessary, she had absolutely no impact on him pulling out of his tailspin. Tuon deserves more credit for that than Cadsuane does, tbh. It also kinda glosses over the part where Rand was | | close to obliterating existence, so, y'know. Dunno if even Mat would've taken that gamble.
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May 5, 2023 21:16
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