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Perestroika posted:
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May 8, 2023 19:20
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| # ? May 26, 2024 00:32 |
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To be fair given how many people reset the game if a run goes bad the idea of a roguelike metaprogesssion game isn't too far out there for DD
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May 8, 2023 19:24
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Ciaphas posted:IIRC you also travel on rails between points of interest, so you're just kinda sitting there for 30 seconds between encounters In darkest dungeon 1 you hold D to move across a hallway for 30 seconds between encounters, seems like the same deal
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May 8, 2023 19:29
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Orv posted:While “I hate modern gaming” is silly my understanding was that Darkest Dungeon 2 seems to particularly misunderstand what people liked about the first game to an almost spiteful degree. I'm a big fan of DD despite its flaws and this was kind of the impression I got too, and also why I wasn't jumping to buy it now that it's on Steam.
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May 8, 2023 19:37
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I just want more Wayne June, does it have more Wayne June
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May 8, 2023 19:39
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I just want a city-builder in the style of Darkest Dungeon. I just wanna build up my sanitariums, chapels, and taverns soaked in spooky ambiance and not mess with the dungeon mechanics at all
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May 8, 2023 20:21
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What kind of metaprogression do you guys like to have in your roguelites? I feel like the usual kerfuffle happens with vertical metaprogression (like having your character get more health and power) since it can kind of feel like the game is being unfair, like your skill as a player is irrelevant until you've jumped through enough hoops till the game actually feels appropriately balanced and can be reasonably beaten, kind of like a rigged arcade machine trying to get enough quarters out of you. It's a bit of a shame since in theory, I feel vertical progression can work in a similar sense like Resident Evil 4's dynamic difficulty where it just slowly gets to a point where it is balanced for you, but some games are just unreasonably hard to start with. I imagine horizontal progression is typically preferred since it just gives you more options that could fit your playstyle better and thus get you closer to a win, but that could also annoy since it might be hiding tools away from you that make fresh runs feel rigged (though again, maybe it's doing it so it can slowly introduce things tutorial-like and not overwhelm you?) Maybe it's not exactly whether the game has vertical or horizontal or a hybrid, but whether it does it properly, as games like Hades do have vertical progression but it never really bothered me since the game was fun and felt fair in spite of it. I dunno, I'm just babbling. Currently playing Wizard of Legend and having a good time! The game is totally horizontal metaprogression in acquiring different spells, robes and artifacts for your loadout and it's so fun to create all these fancy synergies and builds: winning the game is all down to player skill in not only constructing your loadout but building your twitch reflexes and learning how to battle the enemies and monsters. Big recommend for Hades and ARPG fans!
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May 8, 2023 20:32
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TOME unlocks increasingly weird classes, races and skill trees. It's pretty cool imo, most of them are a little too out there for beginners and there's lots of base starting combinations. Metaprogression should provide interesting choices.
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May 8, 2023 20:37
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I think it depends a lot on what you mean by "metaprogression". Imo the best kind of metaprogression is the ones that teach you to play the game through unlocking parts of it, but it has to do so quickly. By your third or fourth run through everything should be wide open, so it's not really metaprogression so much as a long tutorial. The game with probably the best metaprogression would probably be something like Prey Mooncrash. It has a meta layer of unlocking characters that you have to go through, along with getting points to have more starting items, but the real metaprogression is game knowledge. You end up playing the map like a piano in your final run to get everyone out, and I think that's pretty neat. It runs counter to a lot of other types of knowledge-based roguelikes where it's "die to frost giant to find out that it takes 2x damage from poison, not fire, anyways here's another stat boost trinket to toss on the pile."
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May 8, 2023 20:47
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Eason the Fifth posted:I just want more Wayne June, does it have more Wayne June It does yes e: here's a five hour video of Wayne June reading At the Mountains of Madness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq5_iA_wF5o
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May 8, 2023 20:54
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I'm okay with unlocking more options over time, ala ToME4, and I like ones where you make the game more difficult over time, ala Monster Train/StS. EDIT: Metaregression > Metaprogression Jack Trades fucked around with this message at 20:59 on May 8, 2023 |
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May 8, 2023 20:55
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Against the Storm has an interesting thing where it has the usual metaprogression grind and Slay the Spire style ascension difficulty so your level of skill determines how hard you can push the difficulty relative to your progression level.
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May 8, 2023 21:09
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$40 is really pushing it in my opinion (For DD2) Especially since people seem a little iffy on it compared to the first one...
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May 8, 2023 21:15
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TOOT BOOT posted:$40 is really pushing it in my opinion (For DD2) Especially since people seem a little iffy on it compared to the first one... It goes down to $30 if you have the original and you buy the 2-pack with DD and DD2 since it subtracts the price of the owned game in the bundle but even still it sounds like the sequel is maybe not worth that.
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May 8, 2023 21:17
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I didn't play much DD1, but loads of people did and seemed to really like it. Is the metaprogression grind so much different than the grind in the first game?
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May 8, 2023 21:20
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look there can't be two darkest dungeons
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May 8, 2023 21:41
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It seems like the new one is more run-based, like they've stripped back the town-building and roster-padding stuff, but I'm only just settling in to watch someone play a bit so I can decide. I don't think it'll matter too much to me - I'm really in it for the atmosphere and the art and those are still fantastic.
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May 8, 2023 21:49
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Yeah, I'm not sure what really qualifies as "metaprogression" in some cases, to be perfectly honest. I'm generally not a fan of anything in roguelikes/roguelites that just makes you strictly more powerful between runs. Bonuses or straight upgrades suck, and I feel like that's the proper definition of metaprogression. On the other hand, I love long unlock chains, especially if they increase variety, make the game harder, or lead to weirder build options. I think gating weird or even non-optimal characters/classes/builds/items/whatever behind play time is a fun way to do things, but there's no way to do that for straight upgrades without it literally turning the game into a grind.
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May 8, 2023 21:50
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Jack Trades posted:Oh my loving god. I hate this stuff because it always feels like the dev just gave up on balancing the game and said you know what, we'll let the players figure it out, they can continually buff their classes or whatever until the game is beatable. As an experiment I like to cheat past the metaprogression in games like that to see if it's worth playing with everything unlocked and 9 times out of 10 the answer is no because it becomes braindead easy when you have the metaprogression unlocked.
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May 8, 2023 21:53
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I think that's totally fair but I do feel that it's partly a matter of taste.
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May 8, 2023 21:56
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Yeah if I'm playing a game pretty much purely about mechanics then I love having lots of levers to tweak. And it looks like this has metaprogression to make things easier and optional difficulty modifiers to make it harder (and more quickly earn meta currency). Seems like a good way of doing things.
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May 8, 2023 21:58
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I bounced off Wall World after a few hours because I felt the metaprogression was a bit slow (Or I might just be bad at games)
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May 8, 2023 22:02
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ymgve posted:I bounced off Wall World after a few hours because I felt the metaprogression was a bit slow (Or I might just be bad at games) it is way slower than it ought to be, especially since you have to find the rare random meta-upgrades and grind out the price to buy them
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May 8, 2023 22:05
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Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is on sale for a week, 70% off. I watched a review of it recently that got me interested in picking it up, is any of the DLC worth getting for a first playthrough, or should I just get the base game for now?
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May 8, 2023 22:07
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Mandalore also got me interested, tbh I'm even willing to put up with the Pathfinder system for it
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May 8, 2023 22:08
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DD1 has incredible presentation dragged down by some horrendously RNG-driven gameplay and grind that punishes lack of foreknowledge or simple bad luck with potential hours of tedium. DD2 made the presentation even better and from what I’ve seen on streams has reduced the extent that RNG can decide fights, with the current turn order being displayed on the screen and all attacks being guaranteed to hit by default, and tokens only affect the odds in very comprehensible ways like a dodge token being a coinflip. While the change to a roguelite run format means losing is simply a self-contained loss, which I am used to experiencing in rogue games, and not “+6 hours of grinding just to get another set of heroes to max level so you can attempt the darkest dungeon again.” I’m optimistic about all the changes I’ve seen.
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May 8, 2023 22:09
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Veotax posted:Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is on sale for a week, 70% off. I watched a review of it recently that got me interested in picking it up, is any of the DLC worth getting for a first playthrough, or should I just get the base game for now? I'd just go with the base game. The most recent expansion (the Last Sarkorians) is cool and worth it imo, but a new companion won't mean a ton when you have all the base ones still new. And I think all of them you can add in to ongoing campaigns if you decide you actually do want it later.
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May 8, 2023 22:09
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Enter the Gungeon does progression right, IMO. Your characters don't get more innately powerful - but you get far more options opening up, including level skips and in-game bonuses like new vendors, etc. Honestly, Enter the Gungeon is like a gold standard other rogue-lites ought to be measured against.
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May 8, 2023 22:10
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Owl Inspector posted:DD1 has incredible presentation dragged down by some horrendously RNG-driven gameplay and grind that punishes lack of foreknowledge or simple bad luck with potential hours of tedium. DD2 made the presentation even better and from what I’ve seen on streams has reduced the extent that RNG can decide fights, with the current turn order being displayed on the screen and all attacks being guaranteed to hit by default, and tokens only affect the odds in very comprehensible ways like a dodge token being a coinflip. While the change to a roguelite run format means losing is simply a self-contained loss, which I am used to experiencing in rogue games, and not “+6 hours of grinding just to get another set of heroes to max level so you can attempt the darkest dungeon again.” I’m optimistic about all the changes I’ve seen. They also upped the Grave Robber's sass level to a dangerous degree
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May 8, 2023 22:10
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Maybe it's revealing what a scrub I am but i mostly like the idea of DD2's roguelike elements because i hated the DD1 trait system. It seemed to want you to make a bespoke team tailored for every zone, which was a pain in the rear end when it meant your A-team was a random mix of trait, none of them relevant most of the time.
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May 8, 2023 22:15
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Veotax posted:Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous is on sale for a week, 70% off. I watched a review of it recently that got me interested in picking it up, is any of the DLC worth getting for a first playthrough, or should I just get the base game for now? I will say that I bounced off WotR harder than almost any game I’ve ever tried. I came right off the back of Deadfire into attempting to play Wrath and everything about it - writing, acting, design - screamed amateur mod team to an absolutely unpleasant degree. YMMV of course.
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May 8, 2023 22:22
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I really got into the main plot of WotR. Enough to suffer through the awful combat. The I found the main plot to be intriguing and really well executed, and most of the companions are very fun.
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May 8, 2023 22:26
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CuddleCryptid posted:Maybe it's revealing what a scrub I am but i mostly like the idea of DD2's roguelike elements because i hated the DD1 trait system. It seemed to want you to make a bespoke team tailored for every zone, which was a pain in the rear end when it meant your A-team was a random mix of trait, none of them relevant most of the time. I think the changes are good but I did like the fiddlyness of the first game too. But my god the Steam forums are a disaster right now. If you want to play the first game again you can just play the first game, it's still there, I promise! Not you, CC. These goddamn people.
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May 8, 2023 22:32
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Once a dev has made a good game they’re morally obligated to keep making the exact same game until the end of time, otherwise I’m throwing a tantrum
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May 8, 2023 22:35
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Owl Inspector posted:Once a dev has made a good game they’re morally obligated to keep making the exact same game until the end of time, otherwise I’m throwing a tantrum Yes, especially if you're the Subnautica devs.
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May 8, 2023 22:54
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Desktop Dungeon's metaprogression of just unlocking more and weirder classes and items to use is the best way to do it imo Sure you can win with the easy human fighter. Can you win with the goblin transmuter or figure out how to leverage the transmutation scroll instead of the +4 starting weapon? Owl Inspector posted:Once a dev has made a good game they’re morally obligated to keep making the exact same game until the end of time, otherwise I’m throwing a tantrum FTL 2 when
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May 8, 2023 23:01
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RandomBlue posted:Yes, especially if you're the Subnautica devs. Just trying to escape their obligation of Natural Selection 3.
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May 8, 2023 23:01
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Owl Inspector posted:Once a dev has made a good game they’re morally obligated to keep making the exact same game until the end of time, otherwise I’m throwing a tantrum
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May 8, 2023 23:09
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RBA Starblade posted:Desktop Dungeon's metaprogression of just unlocking more and weirder classes and items to use is the best way to do it imo This is the only meta progression I’m ok with. But I also think I should be able to click “unlock all” if I want too. How ToME did it, basically.
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May 8, 2023 23:12
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I don't want meta progression. I just want something like an open world I can wander around in and use powers to fight vampires and their cults or other monsters. You know, something like Diablo 4
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May 8, 2023 23:22
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