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Disco had the worst Klingons.
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May 9, 2023 01:27
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zoux posted:How's this for a hot take: Enterprise unis are the best unis from a perspective of "I work on a spaceship". A nice marriage of the Star Trek and NASA aesthetics. Nah even back when the show was starting and getting a lot of hate most people were admitting that the uniforms were really well designed and practical
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May 9, 2023 01:35
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NikkolasKing posted:A bit of a random question, but which show did you feel did the best and worst jobs about depicting the various popular alien races? Like, which show had the best Klingons, which had the worst Borg, etc.? I guess we have to leave out anything that only appeared on one show. DS9 best for Cardassians, Ferengi, Romulans, Klingons, Changelings. TNG best for Borg. ENT best for Andorians. TNG worst for Ferengi, lol. PIC worst for Borg and Changelings. Disco worst for Klingons. I don't think any show particularly poo poo up the Romulans, Andorians, or Cardassians.
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May 9, 2023 01:42
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The Romulan cowboy samurai planet was kinda contemptable but it wasn't on screen.
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May 9, 2023 01:44
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Lower Decks for Orions and Exocomps. Can't tell if it's the best or worst for Pakleds.
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May 9, 2023 01:45
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Arglebargle III posted:The Romulan cowboy samurai planet was kinda contemptable but it wasn't on screen. I pushed Picard so far out of my mind I completely forgot the first season was full of Romulans, lol. Laris and the guy who got unceremoniously killed were cool. I guess that doesn't make up for it.
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May 9, 2023 01:47
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swickles posted:Lower Decks for Orions and Exocomps. Can't tell if it's the best or worst for Pakleds. On the other hand, ENT had Big Show as an Orion so it might be the best.
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May 9, 2023 02:28
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CainFortea posted:On the other hand, ENT had Big Show as an Orion so it might be the best. SLAVES ARE LOOSE! SLAVES ARE LOOSE! Weirdly enough I think he referenced this cameo fairly recently on AEW commentary but I can't remember why, maybe just Kris Statlander's green facepainted alien character sparking the memory in him
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May 9, 2023 02:38
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NikkolasKing posted:A bit of a random question, but which show did you feel did the best and worst jobs about depicting the various popular alien races? Like, which show had the best Klingons, which had the worst Borg, etc.? Borg: TNG (show, not movies -- and really only Best of Both Worlds) All Other Races: Lower Decks
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May 9, 2023 03:33
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TOS doesn't really build all that much for its races, I think because it doesn't really have the idea that any of these races will be used again in the future, but it is the show that does the most with Vulcans. There's not so much marveling at this or that race's unique aspects. There's a lot of direct allegories. The movies don't really have much time to flesh out races, although they do have some fun adding details for Vulcans and Klingons. I think there's only 4 new aliens, the bald lady, V'ger (and if that doesn't count, the implied machine race that suped up V'ger), the whales, and the giant floating head, and you don't really get any details about any of them. TNG has nothing but time to marvel, because it's a fairly slow show that is really into treading water with extra details, and since later on it's playing off of pre-established races, it feels the need to try filling out a lot of the blanks with them. I think they might also add the most races out of any Trek series. It's really into the idea of alien races having fundamental differences from humanity, especially in their innate mindset. Although, that also gets really awkward sometimes, because when you're imagining what kind of fundamental differences, you also imagine things that'd be gross racial stereotyping back in the day, which luckily I think most of them haven't aged all that poorly, but the Ferengi sure have. Although you could also argue by trying too hard to steer clear of that kind of exoticism, you lose the kind of trying to understand wildly different cultures aspect that the franchise was built on. DS9 was less focused on exploring people's differences on a broad, cultural level and more on examining individuals and their inner lives. There's only a scant few episodes where they're willing to introduce new races for a one-off thing, and usually it's only for the sake of looking deeper into a main character, and all the main characters are, y'know, just people. Not extremely isolated by their cultural differences. Quark essentially rewrites the Ferengi from what they were in TNG and it turns their greed into more of a weird religious devotion thing. Garak...I guess has a couple points where his brain chemistry goes screwy? The Prophets are massive creeps because they don't understand the temporal universe? Enterprise wasn't into examining the main characters deeply or dwelling on the differences throughout the big wide galaxy. There were a number of one-off races, but they're seldom all any different from humanity. There's a number of episodes where the new race of the day isn't really examined at all and it's just a monster that the Enterprise crew has to beat. Vulcans return, but aren't really done much justice (although I do like them disagreeing with humanity). Andorians get the most development they ever have (but it's not really all that culturally unique to be honest). Sulliban, Xindi, and Tandorans are all very forgettable. I did like that one episode where Trip goes over to an alien ship and trips balls in the different alien environment. Lower Decks is back to focusing more on the cast themselves than on the strange new worlds they explore, but weirdly, I think the fact that they go in with a comedy mindset also means that the show is more willing to let aliens be weird and inscrutable, because that's funny. You get a big look at the Orions, but also at a bunch of other deepcut alien races that hadn't been seen in decades, and a few new ones for good measure. There's way more worldbuilding than you would ever expect out of such a limited runtime. Prodigy I kinda crapped out on halfway, but it has way less interest in building lore for the galaxy and more on its internal cast (which isn't really a bad thing, but it is what it is). The main cast doesn't really illustrate much about their respective races on a cultural level. Grand Fromage posted:I guess we have to leave out anything that only appeared on one show. I feel like Cardassians are more interesting on a cultural level back in TNG.
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May 9, 2023 03:34
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Cultural level? They were kinda' just foreheads of the week until DS9 fleshed them out, weren't they? I'd be really interested to hear what you mean.
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May 9, 2023 03:42
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LividLiquid posted:Cultural level? The Four Lights guy goes into their family stuff a bit. I think there's more, but. Ciao Wren posted:Borg: TNG (show, not movies -- and really only Best of Both Worlds) Well there's the first Borg episode, and I think Hugh provides a nice coda on whether Picard can still hold onto his federation ideals. Then they throw it away in First Contact. Lower decks is fine, but DS9 does them better, unless there's something in season 3. Won't know til DVDs get to the library.
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May 9, 2023 03:47
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Beachcomber posted:The Four Lights guy goes into their family stuff a bit. I think there's more, but. First Borg episode is also great. But they are just a monster-of-the-week there. I thought Hugh leaned too far into the Neoliberal "end of history" narrative that begins sliding a pin under the fingernail of what makes the Borg cool. That's on-brand and on-message for Star Trek so it makes sense from a Star Trek perspective. I just don't care for the direction it takes them.
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May 9, 2023 03:51
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Neoliberalism is when you show empathy.
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May 9, 2023 03:57
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Appreciate all the responses. I think it's safe to say the Klingons might be the most iconic ST alien race? Reading on them is what sparked this thought. I still need to sit down and seriously watch any Trek but I was browsing some books on Trek philosophy and fandom (there's a lot of books on this - credible ones, too!) and based on the discussion and quotes, the Klingons sounded the most generic in TOS. Our heroes are appalled at how they...don't eat with proper manners... So it made me ponder if they were just generic space barbarians, and all the unfortunate implications therein, and only got a lot more depth later on. Although Reddit tells me this book called Final Reflection was the source for Klingon culture and stuff in TNG and beyond so I dunno.
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May 9, 2023 04:02
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TOS Klingons are very different from later. They're sneaky Soviet stand-ins, not the honorable warrior stuff.
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May 9, 2023 04:08
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I like to think that the TOS-era Klingon Empire was much more regimented and orderly in general, and then from the events in the movies it underwent a whole collapse where noble families seized more power and fundamentalist movements tore apart much of their former discipline as they focused more on infighting than expansion.NikkolasKing posted:Appreciate all the responses. The Klingons are definitely the race that gets the most screentime and the most details piled up on them that I think even work in concert better than some other races whose worldbuilding sometimes works at cross-purposes. If you want to watch a bunch of Trek just for the "main lore" rather than watch the whole series including one-offs, the Memory Alpha Wiki has handy appendices for each race of all their appearances if you just wanna skim the "relevant" ones. LividLiquid posted:Cultural level? They appeared a few times in TNG, but I think mostly David Warner's account of growing up as a street rat in a ruined Cardassia that had to build itself into the "mighty" state it later became was very vivid about both where the Cardassians came from and how they got where they were, and the first episode the Cardassians showed up in was very good as well and kinda outdid a number of Romulan episodes with a similar premise. TNG even initially established the whole thing where Cardassians were the former imperial masters of Bajor. Whereas I feel like in DS9, Cardassians are more carried by the force of personality of the individuals, and I think there might even be a surprising lack of added details about the race as a whole than you'd expect with the whole runtime of the show. DS9 even kinda waffles a bit in how much they want to depict the Cardassians as "villains", but I feel like it never shows them as vulnerable as David Warner did.
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May 9, 2023 04:26
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Beachcomber posted:The Four Lights guy goes into their family stuff a bit SlothfulCobra posted:They appeared a few times in TNG, but I think mostly David Warner's account of growing up as a street rat in a ruined Cardassia that had to build itself into the "mighty" state it later became was very vivid about both where the Cardassians came from and how they got where they were Yeah, but we have no idea if Gul Madred was even remotely telling the truth. He was a master interrogator, after all.
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May 9, 2023 04:38
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SlothfulCobra posted:DS9 even kinda waffles a bit in how much they want to depict the Cardassians as "villains", but I feel like it never shows them as vulnerable as David Warner did. Counterpoint: S1E19 "Duet."
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May 9, 2023 04:52
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NikkolasKing posted:Appreciate all the responses. Klingons and Romulans kinda get flipped after TOS. Keep in mind that they barely show up in TOS, though, they're in six and three episodes each respectively. In TOS Klingons are sneaky soviets and romulans are an exotic race that originates a bit from 60s orientalism who have a whole thing about honor. From the movies and TNG onwards, Klingons are Mongol Space Vikings obsessed with Honour! and Warrior Tradition, while Romulans are sneaky isolationists with schemes and plans. The Klingons are basically the most developed race in Trek, we probably know more about them than we do humanity at this point. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:54 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 05:37
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https://twitter.com/bennipierce/status/1651116935600558085 Hnnnngh Say what you will about Picard, that startup sequence was sexy.
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May 9, 2023 05:49
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Grand Fromage posted:
I wasn't a fan of the spiky Andorians in Disco tbh. I guess their Tellarites were okay? I think they were better in Enterprise or Prodigy though.
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May 9, 2023 10:21
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Nah the Disco tellarites were just weird, Tellarites had three distinctive features: eyes inside a sunken socket, pig nose, and being very short. Disco was just like 'gently caress it, drop the eyes and make them full height, and let's throw in tusks, a pig man's a pig man'. I had no idea they were meant to be Tellarites at first.
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May 9, 2023 12:05
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Would you like your Orions glazed or unglazed?
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May 9, 2023 12:34
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MikeJF posted:Klingons and Romulans kinda get flipped after TOS. Keep in mind that they barely show up in TOS, though, they're both in three episodes each. I would argue that from TNG onward, the Klingons were very much sneaky politicals, just with the window dressing of HONORABLE WARRIORS. At least half of the Klingon storylines involved high stakes political dealings and underhanded backroom maneuvering. Also, the Romulans have always had a penchant for doomsday brinkmanship whenever they stuck their heads outside of their isolationist bubble.
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May 9, 2023 12:44
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I know I'm a DS9 fanboy, but I feel like that's clearly the series where alien cultures are fleshed out the most. That's the specific type of sci-fi they were most interested in: using fictional cultures to explore ideas about cultural relativism and diplomatic tension. Half the main characters weren't even human, or even Federation. TNG had some of it, but it was much more comfortable in the "weird space stuff" subgenre. Neither of these are necessarily better, I just think they had different goals.
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May 9, 2023 13:17
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wesleywillis posted:If people don't enlist in starfleet how the gently caress do they join?
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May 9, 2023 13:25
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MikeJF posted:Nah the Disco tellarites were just weird, Tellarites had three distinctive features: eyes inside a sunken socket, pig nose, and being very short. Disco was just like 'gently caress it, drop the eyes and make them full height, and let's throw in tusks, a pig man's a pig man'. I had no idea they were meant to be Tellarites at first. Tellarite appearances have varied a lot - the original pig masks in TOS just looked awful, and every show since then has struggled to carry across the original design while making it look not-crap.
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May 9, 2023 13:59
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The Enterprise Tellarites were really good.
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May 9, 2023 14:09
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Timby posted:Yeah, but we have no idea if Gul Madred was even remotely telling the truth. He was a master interrogator, after all. Given that they'd just fought the Federation to a hard peace and were pulling back from colonies they'd made considerable investment into, it is likely he was telling the truth. Hell, the entire Bsjoran occupation even fits that. The invasion was an effort to prop up a failing state.
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May 9, 2023 14:10
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Angry Salami posted:Tellarite appearances have varied a lot - the original pig masks in TOS just looked awful, and every show since then has struggled to carry across the original design while making it look not-crap. Nah the first time we saw them after the TOS movies was Enterprise and they did it great. Enterprise did makeup great in general. A.o.D. posted:I would argue that from TNG onward, the Klingons were very much sneaky politicals, just with the window dressing of HONORABLE WARRIORS. I would argue that their leaders are, while most of the culture isn't as much. The Empire as an institution is highly corrupt. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:26 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 14:12
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Probably doesn't help that in TNG and DS9 we're exposed to Klingons through Worf's eyes and that he has a very particular idea of how Klingons behave, and they treat him as an outsider at the beginning. Then you have the likes of Martok trying to tell Worf it isn't all like that all the time, and him not really listening.
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May 9, 2023 14:22
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TOS Klingons were barely more than a "sneaky Orientals" stereotype; especially early on. It's a tribute to Colicos' acting that he was able to put in a great performance that avoided making Kor one-note. e: Also William Campbell (Koloth) and Michael Ansara (Kang). There's a reason they're the "big three" Klingon commanders in TOS and why no one remembers the other Klingons in the series. F_Shit_Fitzgerald fucked around with this message at 14:45 on May 9, 2023 |
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May 9, 2023 14:38
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Martok seems like a good barometer of what a 'typical' if possibly unusually virtuous Klingon looks like.
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May 9, 2023 14:43
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I liked the episode of the twilight zone set on the Tellarite homeworld.
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May 9, 2023 15:19
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Gaz-L posted:Martok seems like a good barometer of what a 'typical' if possibly unusually virtuous Klingon looks like. Martok is actually the better barometer of "Klingon with a outside perspective" than Worf is. Martok was a typical Klingon but his thinking has been influenced by his atypical experiences. Worf's an atypical Klingon to begin with, and then his thinking has been influenced by him being a Klingon weeb. Kor might be the best "typical" Klingon of the era despite his comparatively few appearances, because he's a reasonably typical Klingon who's still wholly both evaluating himself and being evaluated by Klingon cultural standards.
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May 9, 2023 16:13
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Martok is the Platonic ideal of "Klingon warrior". Kor is almost that. It's down to both JG Hertzler and Colicos, who, like Chris Plummer, understand that Klingons are best when they are "What if pre-Meiji samurai were all members of a Shakespearean theater troupe". Marc Alaimo shows up as the dog alien in that one season 2 episode and even with his face completely obscured and his voice changed, you can still recognize the Dukat cadence.
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May 9, 2023 16:31
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I dunno, I like this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGRbSaTSdQI SlothfulCobra posted:I like to think that the TOS-era Klingon Empire was much more regimented and orderly in general, and then from the events in the movies it underwent a whole collapse where noble families seized more power and fundamentalist movements tore apart much of their former discipline as they focused more on infighting than expansion. That is very awesome, thank you. I might have to finally do that. Also Christopher Lloyd is a Klingon in the third movie?! Feels almost to me like the movies are more important than the TV show as far as Klingons in TOS go. I dunno, just a feeling. Cool music, too.
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May 9, 2023 16:32
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NikkolasKing posted:Also Christopher Lloyd is a Klingon in the third movie?! Feels almost to me like the movies are more important than the TV show as far as Klingons in TOS go. I dunno, just a feeling. Cool music, too. Oh they are, I remember reading or watching some production video that said Nimoy and Lloyd basically invented the idea of the bushido Klingon culture for STIII. At any rate it's the first time we see that type of Klingon on screen.
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May 9, 2023 16:35
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The Klingons in “Errand of Mercy”, “Trouble with Tribbles”, “Friday’s Child” etc are just more or less generic authoritarian foreign bads. There’s very little of the future Klingons in their character. From the way they’re written you’d hesitate to even call them orientalist—that’s all in the visual design with the brown paint and Fu Manchus. Where this starts to change is actually in TOS S3, “Day of the Dove” presents characters who would be almost totally recognizable as 90s Klingons if someone slapped foreheads on them. They are still authoritarian foreign bads, and actually exoticized a fair bit more than in some other portraits, but in this episode the writers are at pains to criticize the depiction of Klingons up to this point as just so much nationalistic bullshit. Imo Klingon culture begins here: we see a lot of interesting stuff like their hunting culture, their swordsmanship, their proverbs, their weird combination of machismo and (60s-style) gender equality, and ultimately their willingness to stop the war and meet humans as allies, without necessarily ceasing to be belligerent assholes. “Only a fool fights in a burning house.” The biggest ingredient missing (apart from the foreheads) is the Worfian fixation on honor. The TOS Romulans are interesting too, although likewise very different from their successors. The original Romulans are just a mirror of humanity/Vulcanity, right down to their obviously classical inspiration. They’re not some wacky other, they’re “of a kind” with us. This is then turned around by “Enterprise Incident” where the focus is on exploiting our similarities to learn their weird and sexy ways so we can clown on them.
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