|
at least the pf natural alignment strats require some quick movement from the healers to ensure everyone gets topped off. people who did nothing wrong during high concept dying from unavoidable damage is just loving embarrassing
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 12:24 |
|
|
Blade Runner posted:I think there's a general disagreement on what "the game" is, and I think it has to be acknowledged that there are a significant amount of players who have absolutely no interest whatsoever in engaging with the combat mechanics, but who want to see more of the story and also dress their cat up in funny outfits you also occasionally see posts from these people on how the msq trials are ruining their experience
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:23
|
|
|
I will admit, I'm probably luck in that OCE seems largely skilled, at least the people willing to throw themselves into PF Savage Raids. Since I've never had that specific problem of no healing going out during unavoidable damage periods, unless something else is going extremely wrong. I would say that Savage is the place where you can in fact, point out that healing isn't happening if it isn't happening. You don't have to accept people being bad in extreme trials/savage raids. It is opt in difficult content, if someone isn't pulling their weight you can at least bring up the issue (without being a dick about it), even if not directly to them.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:27
|
|
|
People don't pull their weight even in Ultimate PF. It can be extremely bad. Or people just outright lying about their prog point, to an incredibly obvious degree. Some people are just desperate to get carried but don't have the balls to just put up a KFF or C41 PF.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:29
|
|
|
imagining what actual difficult msq content would look like in a game where "all 8 players have to hit their space bar like, at least once every two seconds" (5.3 trial QTE) leads to a not-insignificant number of runs on that trial failing and i don't think it would work out very well
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
to be clear, i'm not really calling for normal content to be super hard or anything. i do think it's telling that the "hard" normal content usually involves poo poo like tank lb3s when the tanks likely don't even have the button on their hotbars because why would they? nothing in the msq requires mitigation so why would anyone trying out ex or savage expect to press those buttons.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:35
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:to be clear, i'm not really calling for normal content to be super hard or anything. i do think it's telling that the "hard" normal content usually involves poo poo like tank lb3s when the tanks likely don't even have the button on their hotbars because why would they? nothing in the msq requires mitigation so why would anyone trying out ex or savage expect to press those buttons. This is two different issues, the LB3 is an unintuitive thing because basically nobody has to touch LB in any content ever tank or not, but the DPS one makes things faster so they use it. Tank LB3 has been required in some rare content since HW, it just only comes up in the MSQ in 5.3. In fact Tank LB3 is the only one required in anything until UWU. The fix for this, would be to put a solo duty that requires an LB, but that's hard to implement (and they do straight up give you an LB3 in the new version of the Ultima Weapon at the end of ARR, but it's explicitly for DPS to use). Also, normal raid tankbusters do generally require at least one mitigation, when current. Alliance Raids even more so. It's just in content where a tank being killed by a buster isn't going to punish the party, unlike Savage/Extreme where it will, and this is arguably a good thing. As do MSQ trials, more or less. Someone entering Extreme or Savage, unless they haven't used that job at all on the content required to unlock extremes or savages, will have had to use a tank mitigation button at least once. Also again, you can tell these people what they're doing wrong, and you don't have to stay in a group with someone who can't do the difficult content. Also the answer for why someone trying out ex or savage should expect to use mitigation is because EX and Savage are directly stated to be difficult content so they're going to require more effort? All of this comes back to encouraging these people to engage via MSQ dungeons isn't going to be any more effective than the current situation, it'll just cause them to be blocked off from the MSQ until someone puts in even more effort to carry them in a levelling or 50/60/70/80/etc random queue. EDIT: If anything, Tank LB3 is the most "required" LB, there's only 2 required melee LB moments, and 2 required caster lb moments (and 1 required phys range moment) in the entire game. I have no idea how many healer required LB3 there are though but I'm pretty sure it's less than Tank. It just largely isn't in MSQ content until Shadowbringers. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 16:48 on May 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:42
|
|
|
There is also the small fact that the game as designed is not necessarily the way it is being played. Like learning and keeping track of mechanics or whatnot is supposed to be part of the skills required to do hard content but having automated callouts (or as we see in every ultimate flat out cheats) reduces that and in turn makes the game easier, but the developers still have to design around someone playing on PS4 with a controller and no mods or external programs That doesn't mean good players still aren't good but turns out having handicaps makes it even easier fkr good players to succeed
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 16:57
|
|
|
I push all my buttons in ex roulette not because I need to, but because I want to. It makes things go faster, feels good, and makes my comms earned number go up (yoship please add more commendation achievements, tia) If the other guy doesn't push their buttons optimally, that's fine. I'm almost certainly never going to run into them again anyway. But i reserve the right to grumble about them after they leave if they were especially bad.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
healer LB3 is required on day one of every new alliance raid
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:08
|
|
|
I would simply like some actual hard mode dungeons that give me something to do for progression that isn't 8 man content. Was pretty disappointed in what the criterion dungeons ended up being.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:15
|
|
|
said it before and I’ll say it again: yoship should
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:21
|
|
|
isn't mythic a pretty big factor in "people getting very mad at others for playing suboptimally" stories in wow? sincere question i have not played wow except for like thirty levels at launch
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
What I've heard about Mythic makes it sound completely incompatible with FFXIV structurally
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:29
|
|
|
Arist posted:What I've heard about Mythic makes it sound completely incompatible with FFXIV structurally Yeah, it's really cool and works great for WoW but it really wouldn't here, not just mechanically (WoW is a game built on mobility and going fast...XIV is uh, not.) but also the way loot works in WoW allows for M+ to exist as its own reward structure, but it wouldn't really work here since they are very controlling over itemization and gear options.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
Mythic seems really half assed tbh. Increased stats as you increase the difficulty, followed by enemies getting random diablo-esque affixes tacked on. Functional, I guess, but I'd much prefer designed content like an iteration of criterion.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
The last Nier raid I did had a team with 3 dancers that all danced with the tank, and spent the entire time dead on the floor typing Dorito flavors in alliance chat. Not with any context. Just like all caps COOL RANCH. FLAMING HOT. Presumably unable to be kicked because in Alliances you're always either rolling for loot or in combat. Anyways, I made sure to use feint optimally and it was probably the difference maker. Saint Freak fucked around with this message at 18:41 on May 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
Mythic itself wouldn't work but I'd enjoy a higher difficulty dungeon mode with, say, normal raid equivalent loot.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
I want something that actually makes healing interesting outside of extremes and savage, at least. Dungeons and trials feel like all i do is spam glare with an occasional single button press to handle a raidwide or tankbuster. Even some of the unreal trials have been easy and havent required half my healing toolkit. ive tried the other healing jobs for some variety but i end up switching back to red mage in side content a lot because verraise seems to be more useful most of the time.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 18:42
|
|
|
TheWorldsaStage posted:As someone who saw enough trusts to get the title, I like how the characters have their personalities in trusts. Yshtola never gets hit by poo poo, Alphi will always prioritize Alisaie, etc.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:06
|
|
|
Saint Freak posted:The last Nier raid I did had a team with 3 dancers that all danced with the tank, and spent the entire time dead on the floor typing Dorito flavors in alliance chat. Not with any context. Just like all caps COOL RANCH. FLAMING HOT. Presumably unable to be kicked because in Alliances you're always either rolling for loot or in combat. that was me sorry
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Like learning and keeping track of mechanics or whatnot is supposed to be part of the skills required to do hard content but having automated callouts (or as we see in every ultimate flat out cheats) reduces that and in turn makes the game easier, but the developers still have to design around someone playing on PS4 with a controller and no mods or external programs This is a good point, all making normal content sweatier is going to do is compel more folks to seek out mods, and by extension marginalize anyone unable or unwilling to use these mods. It's pretty clear it is ultimately better for the community if it breaks down into pointless slapfights on whether or not normal content should be more difficult ad nauseam during the pre-patch doldrums rather than if it breaks down into pointless slapfights on whether or not mods are needed.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:10
|
|
|
Hogama posted:Funny, Y'shtola is like my number one "AI got themselves dead by not moving out of the bad" trust. Maybe I just get funny RNG. Yeah in my experience Y'shtola is both bad because she's a BLM that's always moving and not casting, and because when she is casting she's more likely to get clipped by an aoe. She's down there with Alphi's healing in the D tier of Trust members. mikemil828 posted:This is a good point, all making normal content sweatier is going to do is compel more folks to seek out mods, and by extension marginalize anyone unable or unwilling to use these mods. It's pretty clear it is ultimately better for the community if it breaks down into pointless slapfights on whether or not normal content should be more difficult ad nauseam during the pre-patch doldrums rather than if it breaks down into pointless slapfights on whether or not mods are needed. This is part of why I play FFXIV and generally avoid WoW.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:13
|
|
|
That's so weird, I've only ever had Alisae die like twice, Estinian gets hit more than not, and Yshtola does poo poo great. I'm really curious about how the AI actually tick now
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:16
|
|
|
TheWorldsaStage posted:That's so weird, I've only ever had Alisae die like twice, Estinian gets hit more than not, and Yshtola does poo poo great. I'm really curious about how the AI actually tick now It seems pretty straightforward, as other folks have said. They'll always move to avoid an aoe, but will finish their current casting before doing so. However, if another aoe marker shows up while they're positioning to avoid the first, they're not smart enough to move again, which is frequently what gets them killed. They'll also, annoyingly, stand still and not use abilities while waiting for the initial triggering attack to resolve. There's also specific boss mechanics that they always react to the same way, like how they always move to the same spot for stack markers, but outside of those special cases the ruleset above seems to apply for most attacks. A good example is the armadillo boss in Shadowbringers. It does an attack that creates an aoe ring around the edge of the arena, and then about a second later will spawn a bunch of random small aoes to dodge. Any trust folks who move out of that outer ring will simply not react to the smaller ones, and will often get hit as a result. bobtheconqueror fucked around with this message at 19:22 on May 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:18
|
|
|
I believe the "Y'shtola dodges all mechanics" thing is specific to the level 89 trial, which was confirmed by the devs somewhere. Forgot if it was an interview or live letter. I remember seeing a video clip of Alisaie getting a stack marker then backflipping to where Y'shtola was casting. Not her fault she died to that one but it was hilarious
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:21
|
|
|
bobtheconqueror posted:It seems pretty straightforward, as other folks have said. They'll always move to avoid an aoe, but will finish their current casting before doing so. However, if another aoe marker shows up while they're positioning to avoid the first, they're not smart enough to move again, which is frequently what gets them killed. They'll also, annoyingly, stand still and not use abilities while waiting for the initial triggering attack to resolve. Sure but it's interesting I never had Yshtola die and others have
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:22
|
|
|
That said to mitigate this slightly all Trust characters do have a revive they can bust out if the healer is down. (Unless the healer down is the player since the player getting KO’d is a wipe.)
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
Tengames posted:I want something that actually makes healing interesting outside of extremes and savage, at least. Dungeons and trials feel like all i do is spam glare with an occasional single button press to handle a raidwide or tankbuster. Even some of the unreal trials have been easy and havent required half my healing toolkit. ive tried the other healing jobs for some variety but i end up switching back to red mage in side content a lot because verraise seems to be more useful most of the time. Just going to address the unreal trials here. Most of them were from a time where a White Mage's toolkit was Regen and Cure 2. Unreal Trials cribbed from that era are a joke to heal now because our toolkits are so expansive compared to the sort of damage output they were designed for.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 19:37
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:i do think it's telling that the "hard" normal content usually involves poo poo like tank lb3s when the tan
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:There is also the small fact that the game as designed is not necessarily the way it is being played.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:04
|
|
|
I did trust dungeons almost exclusively as the tank to level them up and get the titles but I had to dps to level up Thancred, and I got him killed a couple times by pulling packs ahead. He uses Superbolide but the trust healers don't always react properly to that so he's sometimes still at 1 HP when it ends. Other than that, I've had the healers die a couple times, and then of course Alisaie or Estinien will occasionally jump away with a stack marker and eat it.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:10
|
|
|
FuturePastNow posted:I did trust dungeons almost exclusively as the tank to level them up and get the titles but I had to dps to level up Thancred, and I got him killed a couple times by pulling packs ahead. He uses Superbolide but the trust healers don't always react properly to that so he's sometimes still at 1 HP when it ends. Other than that, I've had the healers die a couple times, and then of course Alisaie or Estinien will occasionally jump away with a stack marker and eat it. I learned the hard way as a tank that I couldn't trust Uriange on big pulls, he loved stopping to hard cast some DPS spell and would be too far behind to actually heal me.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
Well you see that's what Bloodwhetting is for. oh no I've circled this discussion back around
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:14
|
|
|
But I'm drk and kinda bad!
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:36
|
|
|
Orcs and Ostriches posted:Mythic seems really half assed tbh. Increased stats as you increase the difficulty, followed by enemies getting random diablo-esque affixes tacked on. It's a lot more fun than it outright sounds, but its effect on the playerbase (that already had optimisation brain poisoning) is indeed, noticeable. Not impossible to manage mind you. They're the same affixes for a week for one thing, it isn't truly random, and the stat increase is either trash, or bosses, but not "both" (everything does scale up, but it alternates which has the bigger scaling weekly). Beyond that, it helps that WoW dungeons already have more open designs that are intended to be explored and played with, Mythic + as a system is intended to be about finding the route that works for you best in a given week. The optimisation brain poison means this isn't nearly as individual as it possibly could be. It's still not a good system for FFXIV, because they have very different dungeon design at a very basic level. Criterion and Deep Dungeons actually both touch on stuff WoW uses for Mythic in different ways funnily enough. hazardousmouse posted:I learned the hard way as a tank that I couldn't trust Uriange on big pulls, he loved stopping to hard cast some DPS spell and would be too far behind to actually heal me. To be fair, that hard cast is an actual instant death spell on his target, he uses it when trash pulls take too long. The real kicker is Alphinaud prioritising Alisaie for healing, even though she can die and you cannot. The solution, of course, is to take your catboy as your healer every time, he is laser focused on you above any other party member and has extra spells that white mages don't have for this purpose. He actually has a full heal that he'll specifically give the player no matter what role he's on if he sees them below 10% health or something.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 20:39
|
|
|
Oneiros posted:i had urianger eat poo poo dealing with regular boss mechanics more than any human healer who didn't buy a level skip to shb I always think of when I was doing the level 90 MSQ dungeon as a tank with Duty Support, finished up the first boss, and realized everyone else was dead. I don't even know which mechanic Urianger beefed but he clearly hosed the chicken in magnificent fashion
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 21:00
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 21:23
|
|
|
Harder mode dungeons in FFXIV would not have to try to function similarly to WoW to begin with, so I don't think the comparison is completely fair. But there are plenty of ways the current dungeon design could be made more engaging, even if it was as simple as making mechanics faster paced and more deadly.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 21:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 12:24 |
|
|
the only dungeon i've done since the last MSQ patch is Dead Ends and i've got my trust runs at a pretty consistent 22 minutes as Reaper and i will get that loving bird one day
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2023 21:33
|
|
