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Qwijib0 posted:Today, or extremely recently  Those models' days may be numbered. Low volume, high cost luxury cars are not in the 10-year plan, and those are using such dated assembly processes at this point that it's probably costing them money to keep pumping them out. On the other hand, a lot of people still think of Tesla as a high-prestige status car, and it may not be advantageous to shed that image entirely just yet.
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May 12, 2023 15:17
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Dr Gitlin has a review of the Vinfast VF8 up: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/vietnams-first-export-ev-vinfast-v8-makes-shaky-but-promising-us-debut Doesn't come off like a complete piece of poo poo like the earlier review from Jalopnik, so maybe they fixed some things or he was more lucky with the specific unit.
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May 12, 2023 17:48
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When I looked at Vinfast canada pricing they were like, above the top end Kia trim pricing (albeit comparing to the gas telluride) and that seemed utterly ridiculous.
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May 12, 2023 17:53
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Okay, but that guy listed the extra things he paid for and it was “doc fees” and you addressed that separately so it sounds like he got a fair price and did not, in fact, get scammed. I live with the assumption that everyone always gets screwed over at a car dealership. At best you can do better than others but almost never to the point where you're not getting screwed over. *shrugs* I'm just cynical like that.
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May 12, 2023 18:39
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mobby_6kl posted:Doesn't come off like a complete piece of poo poo like the earlier review from Jalopnik, so maybe they fixed some things or he was more lucky with the specific unit. The Autopian's, on the other hand, is still pretty scathing. https://www.theautopian.com/2023-vinfast-v8-city-edition-review-it-breaks-do-not-buy/
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May 12, 2023 18:56
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God it is being absolutely savaged all over. Just brutal.
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May 12, 2023 20:21
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Tiny Timbs posted:I agree BMW is pretty chill but I have literally never encountered a dealer between used car lots, Chevy, Subaru, Ram, and Ford that was willing to commit to anything over email. It might as well be mythical “demand to give your resume to the manager” boomer wisdom to me. I always negotiate over email/text as well. Only been baited and switched once.
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May 12, 2023 20:55
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darnon posted:The Autopian's, on the other hand, is still pretty scathing.
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May 12, 2023 21:37
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Tiny Timbs posted:I agree BMW is pretty chill but I have literally never encountered a dealer between used car lots, Chevy, Subaru, Ram, and Ford that was willing to commit to anything over email. It might as well be mythical “demand to give your resume to the manager” boomer wisdom to me. Have you tried since Covid? They got real used to doing deals online only then, and seems they are still doing it. I got my car 2 states over with everything done online, including trade-in valuation (sent a ton of pics). Showed up, gave them my keys, took the new one home.
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May 12, 2023 21:47
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How do these small carmakers develop stuff like adaptive cruise control? Do they just get it from a vendor? The tech involves some pretty sophisticated computer vision poo poo that seems like it’d be wildly expensive to develop.
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May 12, 2023 21:48
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mobby_6kl posted:Dr Gitlin has a review of the Vinfast VF8 up: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/vietnams-first-export-ev-vinfast-v8-makes-shaky-but-promising-us-debut
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May 12, 2023 21:54
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Vinfast VF8: 2023 Motortrend Car of the Year
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May 12, 2023 22:01
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Vegetable posted:How do these small carmakers develop stuff like adaptive cruise control? Do they just get it from a vendor? The tech involves some pretty sophisticated computer vision poo poo that seems like it’d be wildly expensive to develop. I'd be willing to bet they're using off the shelf Mobileye stuff.
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May 12, 2023 22:02
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McPhearson posted:I'd be willing to bet they're using off the shelf Mobileye stuff. Yeah, Mobileye makes the hardware/most of the software for a TON of cars, Supercruise and Blue Cruise are both heavily based on off the shelf Mobileye software/hardware.
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May 12, 2023 22:06
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Vegetable posted:How do these small carmakers develop stuff like adaptive cruise control? Do they just get it from a vendor? The tech involves some pretty sophisticated computer vision poo poo that seems like it’d be wildly expensive to develop. They just buy from a vendor. Adaptive cruise on its own isn't super fancy. It doesn't need any computer vision, it's typically radar based.
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May 12, 2023 22:42
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Almost all modern cars will have a camera for low speed auto braking, lane keep, traffic sign recognition as well as the radar.
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May 12, 2023 22:48
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dissss posted:Almost all modern cars will have a camera for low speed auto braking, lane keep, traffic sign recognition as well as the radar.* *Optional equipment. Requires tech and convenience package. Not available on pauper or filthy street urchin trim levels.
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May 12, 2023 23:00
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Somehow my dumb gen 1 Bolt has all that stuff but no active cruise, which is why I had to get the open source poo poo. Because once you use it, regular cruise just doesn’t cut it.
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May 12, 2023 23:11
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dissss posted:Almost all modern cars will have a camera for low speed auto braking, lane keep, traffic sign recognition as well as the radar. Maybe most over $30k MSRP, but an everyday Corolla still has mirror-mount blind spot lights as an available option and the ~$25k Camry has dynamic cruise control that only works at higher speeds and can't actually stop the car fully afaik (it just tells you to handle it) Things are getting better but we're still not to the point of every car getting what should be standard.
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May 12, 2023 23:55
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cruft posted:
When was Tesla making luxury cars ever part of their plan? The Model S is 11 years old. That tooling was paid for a long time ago, I'm sure they make money on them.
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May 13, 2023 00:14
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Big Taint posted:Somehow my dumb gen 1 Bolt has all that stuff but no active cruise, which is why I had to get the open source poo poo. Because once you use it, regular cruise just doesn’t cut it. So closure on my dealers suck rant. Communicating by email asking for out the door cash pricing on the Outlander PHEV they have on their lot (they have 4). Comes back with a $$ but no breakdown of it whatsoever. Fair enough, I didn't ask for it. So I ask for a breakdown of the price and remind him I am not interested in any dealer add-ons. So he replies with a breakdown including $3000 for a DIAMOND MAINTENANCE PACKAGE... which is basically prepaid oil changes and wiper blades. Oh yeah "Battery" optimization and inspection on a PHEV. Um, yeah no. So I reply and say "Hey, I'm not going to ask you to waste more of your or my time. If you can't sell it without some sort of add-on dealer package I'm not interested. Thanks." His reply "Sorry, I don't set the prices on these. I would if I could. Management does. Have a good weekend." I can't wait for some sort of normalcy to supply. loving blatant pocket lining. Look, I'm probably willing to stroke a check for a car, probably the most expensive car on the Mitsu lot, even with bullshit fees like "documentation". But I draw the line at poo poo like that. Just glad I don't *need* a car now.
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May 13, 2023 00:23
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Chronojam posted:Maybe most over $30k MSRP, but an everyday Corolla still has mirror-mount blind spot lights as an available option and the ~$25k Camry has dynamic cruise control that only works at higher speeds and can't actually stop the car fully afaik (it just tells you to handle it) The Corolla will have low speed auto braking and at least lane departure warning standard though as those are very cheap to implement.
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May 13, 2023 00:30
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Duck and Cover posted:I live with the assumption that everyone always gets screwed over at a car dealership. At best you can do better than others but almost never to the point where you're not getting screwed over. *shrugs* I'm just cynical like that. Of of curiosity, how much gross profit do you think a car dealership should make on the sale of a new car?
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May 13, 2023 02:22
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Rent-seeking middlemen deserve nothing
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May 13, 2023 02:27
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kill me now posted:Of of curiosity, how much gross profit do you think a car dealership should make on the sale of a new car? Nothing. Car salespeople should be paid a salary from the OEM, with no commission for sold product and be contractually bound to not make deals for commissions on third party products. They should receive a bonus for happy customers, measured after one year of ownership (or after a month for customers who decided not to buy). Their job should be to match people with the car they would be most happy to purchase and own.
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May 13, 2023 02:39
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kill me now posted:Of of curiosity, how much gross profit do you think a car dealership should make on the sale of a new car? Whatever the spread they work out with the manufacturer between invoice cost and MSRP. Almost all consumers are at an inherent information and knowledge disadvantage to dealers, the negotiation should happen between the two experts and consumers should go in knowing the maximum they are going to drive out of a dealership worst case up front. If dealers want to compete with a party, it should not be their customers, it should be the experts, other dealers and if manufacturers/dealers want to juice sales by lowering costs or renegotiate or pad their profits, they are free to negotiate rebates to dealers like they already do and decide if they want to compete on price with other dealers by passing the savings on or juice their profits.
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May 13, 2023 02:47
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kill me now posted:Of of curiosity, how much gross profit do you think a car dealership should make on the sale of a new car? If your arm is covered in leeches how long do you feel they should remain there?
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May 13, 2023 02:48
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kill me now posted:Of of curiosity, how much gross profit do you think a car dealership should make on the sale of a new car? Hmmm let me think they provide negative value to me the customer, so how about they give each customer like 1k for having to deal with them? Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 03:00 on May 13, 2023 |
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May 13, 2023 02:50
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Actually, I do have to say, I paid $1,500 over MSRP for my car because I went to a commercial Ford dealer, that while could sell to consumers, was completely commercial fleet focused. They just flat out said, it is not worth our time to dick with a consumer with the profit margins on a Mach-E, we are expecting no service relationship with you, we have no upsells to offer, $1,500, take it or leave it. $1,500 was actually significantly less than every other local Ford dealer would agree to order it for me and true to their word, they did not dick me around once. November of 2022, 2.49% finance through Ford, $1,500 rebate, let me docusign all the documents from home, never set foot in the dealer once before I picked up the car and when they called to say it was ready, they just said the documents are complete, the car belongs to you, the keys are with the receptionist, swing by anytime to pick up the car.
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May 13, 2023 02:55
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pun pundit posted:They should receive a bonus for happy customers, measured after one year of ownership (or after a month for customers who decided not to buy). This is a terrible idea.
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May 13, 2023 03:08
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pun pundit posted:Nothing. Car salespeople should be paid a salary from the OEM, with no commission for sold product and be contractually bound to not make deals for commissions on third party products. They should receive a bonus for happy customers, measured after one year of ownership (or after a month for customers who decided not to buy). Their job should be to match people with the car they would be most happy to purchase and own. I didn’t ask about what salespeople should make. I asked about what a dealership’s margins on a product they sell should be. It’s a business, what should they make on a sale in gross profit. Pretend it’s a Saturn no price negotiation model Let’s also just get this out there so we are clear. Car makers do not under any circumstance want to sell directly to customers and they don’t want to be responsible for directly servicing those vehicles. They don’t want to have to own the storefront and garages, they don’t want to have to have tens of thousands of additional employees to have to manage, they don’t want to have to have the produced cars sitting unsold on their books.
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May 13, 2023 03:12
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kill me now posted:I didn’t ask about what salespeople should make. kill me now posted:
Maybe they should be required to.
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May 13, 2023 03:33
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kill me now posted:Let’s also just get this out there so we are clear. Car makers do not under any circumstance want to sell directly to customers Are you sure? What information are you using to draw this conclusion? If it's actually the car makers who simply don't want to be bothered then it's pretty weird that dealerships lobbied to get direct sale to consumers banned in most states e: Doesn't Tesla sell directly to consumers? And Rivian? And Polestar? QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 04:21 on May 13, 2023 |
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May 13, 2023 03:56
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QuarkJets posted:Are you sure? What information are you using to draw this conclusion? Direct sales are banned in 10 states, which isn’t most of them. The dealership model also exists pretty much all over the world, irrespective of the local laws. I think the simplest explanation is that it exists because auto makers and dealers find it mutually advantageous.
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May 13, 2023 04:09
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QuarkJets posted:Are you sure? What information are you using to draw this conclusion? Why on earth would they want to Spend the massive amount of money to stand up and operate hundreds of retail locations across the country Have to take the direct blowback for price hikes like when Rivian jacked the R1T’s price up $15k because they could. Have to keep hundreds of thousands of cars on their books as they wait to sell them. Add risk to their portfolio Add tens of thousands of employees, some whom work in the service shop and are more likely to get hurt on the job. Corporate America loves to outsource everything they can. Dealerships are them outsourcing their sales and servicing of their products. For better or worse. My information is base off me having worked in the industry for the past decade. Also if you think a factory owned direct sales scenario isn’t going to be pitching you on aftersales I don’t know what to tell you other then who do you think offers the financing, extended warranties, extended maintenance packages for a lot of brands. Hint, it’s the mfg’s financing company. They aren’t losing that revenue stream in some “dealers disappear” world.
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May 13, 2023 04:17
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Direct sales are banned in 10 states, which isn’t most of them. The dealership model also exists pretty much all over the world, irrespective of the local laws. I think the simplest explanation is that it exists because auto makers and dealers find it mutually advantageous. "Car makers do not under any circumstance want to sell directly to customers" was the claim - so why do makers sometime sell directly to customers anyway? And why did laws get passed in some states to stop this thing they, the car makers, supposedly don't want to do? QuarkJets fucked around with this message at 04:24 on May 13, 2023 |
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May 13, 2023 04:20
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QuarkJets posted:"Car makers do not under any circumstance want to sell directly to customers" was the claim - so why do makers sometime sell directly to customers anyway? And why did laws get passed in some states to stop this thing they, the car makers, supposedly don't want to do? I didn’t make that claim. I was simply pointing out that most states don’t ban direct sales, nor do most countries, and yet direct sales are the exception, not the rule. The obvious conclusion is that the entrenched auto makers are happy with the dealer model. Startups find it onerous which is probably why dealers groups in some states lobbied to get laws passed, because it stifles competition.
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May 13, 2023 04:31
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QuarkJets posted:"Car makers do not under any circumstance want to sell directly to customers" was the claim - so why do makers sometime sell directly to customers anyway? And why did laws get passed in some states to stop this thing they, the car makers, supposedly don't want to do? The only ones who sell direct are the ones that are new to the market and don’t have the ability to establish a dealer network or ones run buy a “move fast break stuff” tech bro who does a lot of things that run against industry “best practices” to be contrarian. I would not be shocked to see in 10-20 years a company like Tesla move to a franchised dealer model. It may not function exactly the same as it does with other brands, but offloading a lot of the cost and responsibility to someone else is very appealing to big companies.
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May 13, 2023 04:38
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kill me now posted:The only ones who sell direct are the ones that are new to the market and don’t have the ability to establish a dealer network or ones run buy a “move fast break stuff” tech bro who does a lot of things that run against industry “best practices” to be contrarian. Every other luxury good company is running the opposite direction to completely control the consumer experience post Apple Store success.
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May 13, 2023 05:13
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Three Olives posted:Every other luxury good company is running the opposite direction to completely control the consumer experience post Apple Store success. Fine for luxury goods, unless cars are that now. You buy a Porsche, you expect to have "a relationship" with Porsche AG (even if you bought it from a dealership, you're a client). Nobody expects that when they buy "just a car" any more than they do when they buy a Samsung fridge.
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May 13, 2023 05:29
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