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cat botherer posted:You're literally being an rear end in a top hat to anyone who looks like that. Here's another one: remember all those pictures of Trump and Putin kissing because they're gay for each other that liberals love putting up? Those are homophobic. The homophobia is not directed at gay people, at its surface, but the underlying dog whistle is clear to me and other gay people. You not knowing the historical context behind said picture does not make it homophobic. quote:This stuff also accomplishes nothing. "Decorum" wrt politics has more to do with stuff like Diane Feinstein praising Lindsey Graham during Kavanaugh's appointment, not the fact that she doesn't say "Lindsey Graham is gay lol." Is Lindsay Graham gay? I thought that was just a joke. Gumball Gumption posted:Yeah I'm pretty sure it's just racist when you call him that Ok? Does that change the meaning of the term?
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May 14, 2023 17:12
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DarkCrawler posted:You not knowing the historical context behind said picture does not make it homophobic.
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May 14, 2023 17:15
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cat botherer posted:What exactly is the historic context behind Trump and Putin being gay lovers? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_fraternal_kiss
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May 14, 2023 17:16
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I'm glad all of these are referencing the socialist fraternal kiss, and there's no homo implied  
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May 14, 2023 17:23
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So here's Kelly Cadigan, she's a transgender woman who agrees with Republican restriction on transgender health care for minors, including health care that she herself received. DarkCrawler, feel like rolling out any transgender jokes in this situation?
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May 14, 2023 17:31
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cat botherer posted:I'm glad all of these are referencing the socialist fraternal kiss, and there's no homo implied Yeah, well I don't actually, as per your question, remember any of those pictures as opposed to the actually famous ones? The middle one isn't even about kissing! The last one just has Trump's face copy-paste on an actual woman, I feel like if your intention is to communicate homophobia you would actually at least bother to find a picture where two men kiss, not exactly a hard thing to do in the 21st century  PharmerBoy posted:So here's Kelly Cadigan, she's a transgender woman who agrees with Republican restriction on transgender health care for minors, including health care that she herself received. DarkCrawler, feel like rolling out any transgender jokes in this situation? Is she insulting transgender people based on their transgender status? Feel like finding something actually applicable instead of these incredible reaches? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:42 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 17:39
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DarkCrawler posted:Yeah, well I don't actually, as per your question, remember any of those pictures as opposed to the actually famous ones? The middle one isn't even about kissing! The last one just has Trump's face copy-paste on an actual woman, I feel like if your intention is to communicate homophobia you would actually at least bother to find a picture where two men kiss, not exactly a hard thing to do in the 21st century
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May 14, 2023 17:42
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There is arguably a post-homophobia intention to some of the Trump/Putin kissing photos, with the only "slam" being that Trump is massively pro-Putin to the point of it resembling romantic love. But the homophobic interpretation is deducible enough and pervasive enough that it's probably not a good idea to promote such memes.
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May 14, 2023 17:44
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DarkCrawler posted:Is Lindsay Graham gay? I thought that was just a joke. Some people call it the worst kept secret in DC.
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May 14, 2023 17:44
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cat botherer posted:I've seen a ton of these. You aren't seriously suggesting that the average American lib knows what a "socialist fraternal kiss" is? Give me a loving break. Where are you getting that these are "average American liberals" posting these things anyway as opposed to liberals and leftists, anyway? Or where you have gathered that the context between two men kissing is always intended to be different from a man and a woman and reference homophobia as opposed to showing two people who like eachother? Would those pictures be unproblematic if they were different genders or would it then be intended to demean the woman?
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May 14, 2023 17:51
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cat botherer posted:I'm glad all of these are referencing the socialist fraternal kiss, and there's no homo implied  isn't that they're gay for each other. The joke is that they both hate homosexuality and see themselves as big manly straight men and this poo poo gets under their skin because they are homophobic.You can still argue that it's bad to make jokes about that kind of thing and we shouldn't make light of homophobia. I agree it's a bit childish and honestly overdone. But I don't think it's fair to say that the joke itself is homophobic. DarkCrawler posted:Or where you have gathered that the context between two men kissing is always intended to be different from a man and a woman and reference homophobia as opposed to showing two people who like eachother? Would those pictures be unproblematic if they were different genders or would it then be intended to demean the woman? This is just taking the piss in the other direction. Everyone knows that Putin puts on ridiculous airs about hating homosexuality and Trump probably doesn't care about gay people but definitely cares about people thinking he's gay because he's a narcissist. It would still probably be a meme if Trump or Putin were a woman, but the homophobia aspect is clearly being lampooned here. KillHour fucked around with this message at 17:56 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 17:51
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KillHour posted:
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May 14, 2023 17:53
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I remember watching Jon Stewart and he called Trump Purim’s butt-pirate and the liberal audience just ate it up.
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May 14, 2023 17:54
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TheDisreputableDog posted:I remember watching Jon Stewart and he called Trump Purim’s butt-pirate and the liberal audience just ate it up.
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May 14, 2023 17:56
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The people arguing it doesn't get people to vote against him are probably the funniest of the complainers here since the sort of complaining they are doing not only doesn't get people to vote against him either but creates a climate that encourages people to vote for him. From a practical perspective it's some dumb poo poo. Also Disreputable Dog your posts continue to be perfect examples of what I was talking about in regards to shilling out exactly the bullshit that's the problem as the reason not to make fun of him. Seriously, stop advocating for that poo poo.
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May 14, 2023 18:06
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The only moral things to speak to Trump start with Miranda warnings. There's no point in calling him anything, his name is slur enough.
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May 14, 2023 18:17
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cat botherer posted:Myself and other gay people I've talked to don't feel the same way! This poo poo absolutely is homophobic, even if not consciously so. You and dark crawler are really reaching with these galaxy-brain interpretations. DarkCrawler is really reaching by saying there's no aspect of homophobia to the joke at all, but it's really hard to make satire without leaning into the bad thing. You can argue it's bad (as in not funny and poorly considered) satire, or that people shouldn't make that kind of satire because it is offensive to some gay people, but it's still clearly satire. There's also the 'ironic' 4chan 'satire' of "no guys I'm totally not a nazi its just a joke... or is it!? (wink wink)," and that stuff is well and clearly bad, but I don't think this is that. Should people not make satire because it could be taken literally and be offensive to people they didn't intent it to? SA is pretty strict about that because we want to be a welcoming community and unintentionally making people upset isn't very conducive to that kind of thing. But there's always going to be some disagreement over where the line is. I think it's important to differentiate between "I'm doing this to hurt people and hiding under a veneer of sarcasm" and "Communication is hard, especially on the internet, and people are bad at satire." I think most people are doing the latter thing. TL;DR: Is the joke funny? No. Could people find it offensive? Yes. Was it done in bad faith to be double-reverse-secret-homophobic? I really don't think so. Is it a "galaxy brain take" to say homophobia is the butt of the joke? I also really don't think so. Am I saying you shouldn't say "hey I have a problem with this"? No - your viewpoint is important and this is how we learn about each other. Do I think we should tar and feather Jon Stewart and drag him behind a horse? Only if we do it in a really funny and ironic way. no
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May 14, 2023 18:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The only moral things to speak to Trump start with Miranda warnings. There's no point in calling him anything, his name is slur enough. his name is a slurring word
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May 14, 2023 18:21
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cat botherer posted:Myself and other gay people I've talked to don't feel the same way! This poo poo absolutely is homophobic, even if not consciously so. You and dark crawler are really reaching with these galaxy-brain interpretations. The galaxy brain interpretations of someone refering the socialist kiss or photoshopping Trump's head on a woman probably didn't intend it as a commentary on homosexuality being wrong and icky? Some people actually do intend that. All of them? All of them being "liberals"? I think I could find gay people disagreeing on that with some cursory googling and I am pretty sure I have seen leftists reference "Trump sucking Putin's dick" on this forum. I am not really sure how your example was analogous to what I was talking about, either way. If someone found out some kind of unimpeachable evidence of Vladimir Puting being gay I am pretty sure he would get ripped on that by gay and straight people alike. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:23 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 18:21
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There's nuance here, and I don't want to tar and feather Jon Stewart. There's a difference between talk about "groomers" and Putin/Trump kissing, but the later is still absolutely homophobic, albeit less so, and sometimes only latently. The original point was that it's not great to use homophobia/fatphobia/whatever to make fun of bad people, even if they're bad. These jokes are gross.DarkCrawler posted:The galaxy brain interpretations of someone refering the socialist kiss or photoshopping Trump's head on a woman probably didn't intend it as a commentary on homosexuality being wrong and icky? cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 18:22
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KillHour posted:DarkCrawler is really reaching by saying there's no aspect of homophobia to the joke at all, but it's really hard to make satire without leaning into the bad thing. You can argue it's bad (as in not funny and poorly considered) satire, or that people shouldn't make that kind of satire because it is offensive to some gay people, but it's still clearly satire. They're hack jokes that lean on societal hate to get a laugh and the further away the person making the joke is from the group it's using as a crutch the grosser it gets.
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May 14, 2023 18:23
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This is always such a tedious argument when it comes up, but I think I have the solution. Most of these people are absolute garbage humans who commit numerous crimes against humanity and spend most of their time enriching themselves and making the lives of the average American significantly worse as a result. So just slap that text on an unflattering picture and boom, no one needs to utter a word about what they personally think of someone's physical characteristics. Look at those photos of DeSantis coming out. There's really nothing to say about his physical appearance, the picture says it all.
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May 14, 2023 18:34
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cat botherer posted:There's nuance here, and I don't want to tar and feather Jon Stewart. There's a difference between talk about "groomers" and Putin/Trump kissing, but the later is still absolutely homophobic, albeit less so, and sometimes only latently. The original point was that it's not great to use homophobia/fatphobia/whatever to make fun of bad people, even if they're bad. I think we just kind of have a disagreement on what the word "homophobic" means, because I think you're meaning it to say "anything that could be oppressive or offensive to gay/LGBTQ+ people" and I mean it to speak more about the mindset of a person. This is kind of an issue with culture-related words being overloaded in general (like how apparently nobody can agree on what the gently caress 'woke' means). I don't really want to go down that rabbit hole, but when you say something is "homophobic," it implies to me that either it was done with malice or gross ignorance. We don't say 1984 is a totalitarian book, even though it's about totalitarianism (no I'm not comparing the quality - 1984 is a masterpiece and this meme is stupid). I think because the image is satirical, that disqualifies it from being homophobic, even though the joke is about homophobia. As for the "original point," I don't really have a strong argument about that other than to say that the standards are probably different in different situations and with different people. Professor Beetus posted:This is always such a tedious argument when it comes up, but I think I have the solution. Most of these people are absolute garbage humans who commit numerous crimes against humanity and spend most of their time enriching themselves and making the lives of the average American significantly worse as a result. So just slap that text on an unflattering picture and boom, no one needs to utter a word about what they personally think of someone's physical characteristics. The unflattering photo is intentional and is therefore the unspoken joke, and you just end up in the same place. Any joke that is at someone's expense could also be at someone else's expense that you weren't intending. KillHour fucked around with this message at 18:40 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 18:38
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You can't use something as an insult without seeing it as shameful. It's not particularly complicated.
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May 14, 2023 18:43
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Professor Beetus posted:
AI art prompt for DeSantis finger pudding eating competition
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May 14, 2023 18:58
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Elias_Maluco posted:Can we mock the fact he is orange? Why? Is it bad to be orange? Is him being orange the reason you hate him? Personally, I think we hate him for enough actually good reasons already. For example, his open racism, his blatant misogyny, his long history of barely-concealed crimes, his terrible business sense that can't even keep a casino in the green, and his preference for well-done steaks. There's no shortage of stuff to mock and insult him about. If you're so desperate for material that you have to resort to talking about his skin color, maybe it's time to get off the stage and take a break from the comedy routine for a while. KillHour posted:
Making homophobic jokes about homophobes is still homophobic. When you're accusing people of being gay as a deliberate insult and slight against them, it's inherently homophobic.
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May 14, 2023 19:03
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GlyphGryph posted:Also Disreputable Dog your posts continue to be perfect examples of what I was talking about in regards to shilling out exactly the bullshit that's the problem as the reason not to make fun of him. Seriously, stop advocating for that poo poo. I don’t get it. Progressive ideology is that words matter, framing matters, normalizing negative stereotypes is a bad thing. That doesn’t go out the window just because it would be super-cool to own someone, right? I’m not sure what it is I’m advocating for by pointing that out - I simply said it “kind of sucks”.
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May 14, 2023 19:11
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Main Paineframe posted:
So a reference to two dictators literally kissing in actual reality (there are photographs and eye-witnesses) to lampoon two present dictators becomes inherently homophobic because it depicts two men kissing and the men depicted themselved are homophobes? What about a picture of a white woman and a black man kissing as a hypothetical dictator pairing on either side of time? Is It inherently sexist and/or racist due to the weight of historical gender and racial power dynamics? Does one always gave to keep in mind the act as representing something once literally outlawed (either because the woman not being married to the man or because of their races) instead of it being an embrace?
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May 14, 2023 19:31
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You should be ashamed for doing this thing. What, no I don't find this thing shameful, why would you think that?
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May 14, 2023 19:48
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DarkCrawler posted:So a reference to two dictators literally kissing in actual reality (there are photographs and eye-witnesses) to lampoon two present dictators becomes inherently homophobic because it depicts two men kissing and the men depicted themselved are homophobes? Unless the image is directly referring Brezhnev and Honecker kissing, or the Berlin Wall art piece depicting it, it is straight up homophobic. Even then it's borderline. Your insistence that this is about socialist fraternal kissing after having some pictures posted as examples that are *clearly* not that, doesn't make much sense. Take the L, or drop the topic.
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May 14, 2023 19:51
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Unless the image is directly referring Brezhnev and Honecker kissing, or the Berlin Wall art piece depicting it, it is straight up homophobic. Even then it's borderline. How about you answer my counterfactual instead of declaring me defeated?
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May 14, 2023 19:52
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Adenoid Dan posted:You can't use something as an insult without seeing it as shameful. It's not particularly complicated. is this a serious thing ou are saying without sarcasm? I genuinely can't believe someone can live any amount of years interacting with other human beings and believing something that is so obviously and blatantly wrong, but it feels like you're posting sincerely, and so I just... Don't know what to do with that. But, yeah... This isnt remotely true. TheDisreputableDog posted:I don’t get it. Progressive ideology is that words matter, framing matters, normalizing negative stereotypes is a bad thing. That doesn’t go out the window just because it would be super-cool to own someone, right? I’m not sure what it is I’m advocating for by pointing that out - I simply said it “kind of sucks”. Yes, those things matter, which is why your criticisms, based as they are on the requirement that someone buy into those unhealthy framing and negative stereotypes as a base, are particularly galling. Like this one: TheDisreputableDog posted:No, saying “HE LOOKS INDECISIVE AND WEAK LOL” is buying into his bullshit? Or at least spreading it in a sarcastic way - I’m sure we don’t need to rehash the “it’s just sarcastic sexism/racism/whatever” argument again in 2023. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 19:57 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 19:53
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GlyphGryph posted:is this a serious thing ou are saying without sarcasm? I genuinely can't believe someone can live any amount of years interacting with other human beings and believing something that is so obviously and blatantly wrong, but it feels like you're posting sincerely, and so I just... Don't know what to do with that. What do you think makes showing 2 men kissing insulting? What do you think makes calling someone fat insulting? How do you think insults work?
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May 14, 2023 19:54
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the insult isn't that they're kissing. the insult is that they're so close. saying 'trump is in bed with putin' isn't homophobic.
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May 14, 2023 19:57
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Adenoid Dan posted:What do you think makes showing 2 men kissing insulting? What do you think makes calling someone fat insulting? How do you think insults work? A Catholic priest who spends his time preaching about fire and brimstone for anyone having sex outside marriage AND homosexuals also happens to have sex with the gravedigger on the regular. This is found out. I make fun of him. Whoops I guess I am a homophobe and sex-shamer for pointing out he is both gay and having sex not only outside a marriage but as a literal priest. If I quote his own words at him is this still secret shame or how far does this thing go?
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May 14, 2023 19:59
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:the insult isn't that they're kissing. the insult is that they're so close. saying 'trump is in bed with putin' isn't homophobic. Sure, if you want to ignore all of our cultural context.
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May 14, 2023 20:00
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Adenoid Dan posted:Sure, if you want to ignore all of our cultural context. Our cultural context is that the visual shorthand of any close relationship is holding hands, kissing, and so on and so forth.
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May 14, 2023 20:01
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Our cultural context is that the visual shorthand of any close relationship is holding hands, kissing, and so on and so forth. This would be more compelling if that visual shorthand wasn't almost exclusively used when it's 2 men, and if we weren't in the middle of a resurgence in anti-queer rhetoric and legislation.
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May 14, 2023 20:07
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How would you depict two people having a close relationship, visually?
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May 14, 2023 20:11
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:How would you depict two people having a close relationship, visually? Birds of a feather, shaking hands, doing similar things. Go ahead and show them kissing just don't act surprised that people call it homophobic.
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May 14, 2023 20:14
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