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Fivemarks posted:I think, maybe, we shouldn't instantly jump to "This person is misogynist" as an explanation for something. they could just be like a hater
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May 12, 2023 12:57
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Fivemarks posted:I think, maybe, we shouldn't instantly jump to "This person is misogynist" as an explanation for something. IIRC the issue was this post in particular: chiasaur11 posted:Fair question. (Especially if I'm going to be a bring down, which I apologize for) Going 'having a female protagonist means the team didn't have a story to tell, they just wanted to make something to sell', questioning Suletta's competency based on a 5 second scene or saying that she's there to get emotional reactions out of the audience unlike past male protagonists irked a lot of people back during S1. Azran fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 12, 2023 |
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May 12, 2023 16:33
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I think there is a sense in which Suletta was set up out the gate as the soft, innocent heroine (in either sense) who falls in and fixes everyone just by radiating positivity, but then the show pulls it out from under her by being about how that naivete can be cultivated and manipulated, and even how her special innate "talent" is a setup. But it does all that while not discounting her optimism and her earnest desire to help people. It's a lot of good execution and characters fitting together. Her relationship with Miorine is a really satisfying two-way street because they have opposite strengths and pathologies.
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May 12, 2023 16:46
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Yeah the way the show has been unraveling to reveal how much of Suletta's naivete, competencies and general outlook are the result of seventeen years of living with a crazy person has been very fun. I don't think we can really hold anyone's initial opinions on Suletta's character as being particularly meaningful now that the greater context is understood. Also lol: https://twitter.com/_HeirToTheStars/status/1657011482020675585?t=5DM8Q4trI2FFx-6xWWLI0Q&s=19 Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 12, 2023 |
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May 12, 2023 16:56
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Azran posted:IIRC the issue was this post in particular: I’m not going to lie, reading a post where someone complains about a female lead being there for marketing purposes instead of story purposes and then goes on to criticize the writers for caring more about the emotional impact of storytelling choices than how it fits with Lore feels pretty reminiscent of internet debates about Rey.
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May 12, 2023 21:42
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X-Ray Pecs posted:I’m not going to lie, reading a post where someone complains about a female lead being there for marketing purposes instead of story purposes and then goes on to criticize the writers for caring more about the emotional impact of storytelling choices than how it fits with Lore feels pretty reminiscent of internet debates about Rey. Spent far too long after reading this post wondering who was out there starting arguments over the blonde boy from Destiny.
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May 12, 2023 22:11
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haypliss posted:Yes...? The point being they are using a Zeta release from before whatever song licensing you're talking about, so CR would have to do extra work to include those songs that were not a part of the existing release, which they are just slapping up on their site. I wouldn't ever hold my breath for them to do something like that when minimal cost/effort is the other option. Endorph posted:idk its just weird that literally anytime someone says 'g-witch is pretty successful' the graphs have to get busted out. i dont remember that happening with any other [...] show except in the context of like, broader series-wise financial discussions 
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May 12, 2023 22:55
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Azran posted:IIRC the issue was this post in particular: aw geez i had forgotten about those details yeah ok i can see the misogyny claim. personally i wouldn't jump to that conclusion without more but it's a lot less out of nowhere, thanks for clarifying
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May 13, 2023 06:46
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I just finished watching Unicorn. Good poo poo even if it kind of felt like Dehydrated Gundam towards the end, especially in the last episode. I had a discussion with my buddy over it afterwards. Here's how I understood it: The original Federal charter had a clause saying the stuff about including space-adapted humans in government. This is phrased like poo poo but I wondered if it is one of those things when an alternate reading would be something like "If a race of space-adapted human beings should arise, it will be the Federation's priority to include them in government" and would have made a lot more sense and seems to track with the idea of it being a humiliating bargaining chip, rather than something absurd like a preamble statement of "the government will be under the Authority of Jesus Christ" and some guy changes his name to Jesus Christ and says "I'm in charge now, nerds." Related to this, my understanding of characters like Riddhe's logic is: 1. The secret clause says include the new humans in government (which, as I recall, spacenoids definitely are not beyond town council level poo poo) 2. Zeon zum Deikum's theory is that people living in space are becoming a new type of human, which seems to be regarded as Deikum independently coming up with the concept, which then becomes the guiding ideology of Zeon. 3. The One Year War simultaneously wipes out a ton of Federal-friendly spacenoids and leaves Zeon in a surprisingly good position, albeit with a military defeat. During the One Year War, psychic phenomena are discovered, somewhat quantified, and called "Newtypes". 4. Newtypes are scientifically verifiable and you can do a brain surgery of some kind in order to turn someone into something resembling one; Amuro Ray, hero of the One Year War, is one, and there are others. Therefore, "the original founding idea of the Federation said to include people who match up to Zeonic ideology, which would massively legitimize the modern Zeon movements if it got out, especially as the Feds hid it in the first place." The story clearly presents this as being an incomplete and lousy understanding, since almost everyone is able to pick up on Marida at the end, including an affluent Earthnoid... but that would be the political argument. Is that right?
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May 13, 2023 08:59
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Nessus posted:Is that right?
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May 13, 2023 11:41
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Are you kidding that’s when I started to pay attention
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May 13, 2023 16:54
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Arc Hammer posted:Yeah the way the show has been unraveling to reveal how much of Suletta's naivete, competencies and general outlook are the result of seventeen years of living with a crazy person has been very fun. I don't think we can really hold anyone's initial opinions on Suletta's character as being particularly meaningful now that the greater context is understood. Nothing to laugh at here, just two pals being pals, normal friendly like in space, while their sister-mother-wife watches.
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May 13, 2023 19:09
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Nessus posted:Is that right? Classic Unicorn, mistaking complexity for depth.
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May 14, 2023 01:08
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Nessus posted:I just finished watching Unicorn. Good poo poo even if it kind of felt like Dehydrated Gundam towards the end, especially in the last episode. The problem is, by the point in the story that UC takes place in Zeon as a political force is basically spent. The Zabist forces died with Haman and Glemy and the Deikunists died with Char. The sleeves are a completely depleted force, this fact does not come across in the OVA as it should because Bandais penchant for pushing plastic, however it's clear from the moves they make, the creation of the psuedo-char, the remnants on Earth, and Zimmerman's backstory that these are not supposed to be a political force that the Federation should worry about. Secondly after the rock drop failure the Federation, lethargic as it is, is still ready to respond aggressively to threats to their dominion in ways that they simply weren't in ZZ-CCA era. ECOAS, Londo Bell, The Revil Taskforce, and Gryps show the complete military dominece of the Federation over the colonies and it's willingness to smash out any resistance to it's reign overtly or covertly. However the Colonies do have the higher population and the higher economic output, simply put the Earth is a mess after all the overpopulation preceding UC and a financial disaster following the disastrous events of UC. They lack the ability to work in concert though, and if the Zeonic Republic is subsumed back into the Federation you'll lose the last bastion of non Federation control barring Jupiter. Then from a political POV what Zeon/Full Frontal needs to do to win is to make sure the Federation cannot return to a unipolar world, and to enjoin the colonies together against the Federation economically. Both of these need for Zeon to still exist, but disentangled from its...less than stellar monarchical experience and for the Federation to remain in stasis; unable to leverage it's military dominance over the wayward colonies. Both of these are provided by holding the box, and nullified by Mineva letting the cat out of the bag. Any hostage use the secret had died the second it stopped being secret, any unifying principal inside the charter itself will be dispersed by the manner of release; and the pressure being released singularly between colonies instead of having each grouping acting in concert following the knowledge being made public.
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May 14, 2023 04:29
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https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsFWDg8Jfmd/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link gently caress numbers
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May 14, 2023 04:42
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Gaius Marius posted:https://www.instagram.com/reel/CsFWDg8Jfmd/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link Yes, given the population growth after the One Year War, the gently caress Numbers must be quite high. One big thing with the box is that almost no-one knew what was in it, beyond "Something big". The rumors linked it to Newtype theory, but the final was much less impactful than anyone thought. It was basically just "The Federation was founded in the belief that Earthnoids and Spacenoids would both be participants in the government, no matter how mankind changed in the new era." But paranoia, power grabs, and the general realities of life meant that it twisted into yet another conspiracy, one that everyone valued less for what it actually was than for the fact it was a useful bargaining chip. Edit: Also, what we need for Unicorn 2 is a Parks and Rec style office comedy where Beecha, as the only Newtype who agreed when asked, is put in charge of a minor government department. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 06:54 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 06:42
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Nessus posted:Is that right? Gaius covered a lot of the politics of the setting, but yeah that's about right. The thing is that the box itself is powerless except as a secret and a tool of political leverage based on being a secret. The last clause is basically unenforcable because the one thing you got wrong is that it's actually really hard to identify if someone is a Newtype, in universe especially and a little bit outside it. We know Amuro Ray is a Newtype, but in the OG Gundam when asked he says he doesn't know if he's one and thinks that maybe everyone on the White Base is one, even people we in the audience would say aren't Newtypes... But also in the finale they literally escaped by following his psychic instructions so are they Newtypes? Similarly the idea of "Newtype as a person adapted for space" is shot to hell because there are people who became Newtypes on Earth. And Cyber Newtypes are a thing, but they're also weird and unstable and doing it is always portrayed as a borderline crime against humanity, and is that really a Newtype of human even if they can use funnels? And have they really be considering a new race of humans if they're dehumanized combat units? After all there are people out there who can do it without needing inhumane nightmare procedures. Is a Newtype an ace pilot? A person with weird premonitions? Someone who can use funnels? Someone who can understand other people on an empathic level? Can anyone be a Newtype or only some people? Are Newtypes born or awakened? What IS a Newtype really in universe? And are they really the "new space-adapted human race" mentioned in the original charter? And of course it doesn't help that Zeon touted spacenoids in general as Newtypes muddying the waters by turning it into also a political distinction, and that in universe people tend to look at Newtypes on a purely phenomenological level as people with weird magic powers, ignoring the trippy transhuman stuff going on. Part of the point of the box, incidentally, is that it's meant to be this huge letdown. As is pointed out multiple times, its only useful as a secret, it's scandalous because they sat on it not because it would change a drat thing even if the missing charter was officially endorsed because "a new space-adapted human race" has not been confirmed. Spacenoids will latch onto it and marshal for greater political influence and probably wave the old, dead flag of Zeon, and there would be shakeups and violence but most likely very little would change. And its kind of a double bluff in that regard, it's a colossal letdown whose entire point is that its a colossal letdown. That's part of Unicorn though, everyone is out there chasing after some magical cure for generations of strife, and it turns out they just aren't going to find it because it isn't that easy.
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May 14, 2023 07:02
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I dont have a problem with the box being a wet fart as much as I find the specific wording on the constitution to be insane. That and the final episode of Unicorn goes on way too long with a magic carpet ride to the heat death of the universe for the last forty minutes because they had to get their newtype mindfuckery out all at once. Sorry but stopping a rebuilt Gryps Laser from blowing up a box of nonsense doesn't have the same thematic weight as saving the entire Earth with the collective willpower of humanity, much as Unicorn would like to present its finale with the same degree of reverence as the Axis Shock. If softened on Unicorn a lot since I first watched it but I still feel like the level of importance it places on its plot in the grander scheme of the UC is overblown. It wants to be seen as an extremely pivotal moment in the Universal Century when it has about as much impact on the in-universe history as something like 0083. It's far from the most importantest thing ever that is portrays itself to be. In that respect I can appreciate Narrative for being a more low-key story. Narrative isn't great but it understands what it is a bit better. Sure it's got another Neo Zeong and psychoframe shenanigans being used to contact God and defeat death itself, but contextually its about stopping a mentally ill test subject from blowing up a gas station. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 07:26 on May 14, 2023 |
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May 14, 2023 07:14
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It should have just been the novelizations of the UC gundam series inside that box.
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May 14, 2023 07:22
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Nuebot posted:It should have just been the novelizations of the UC gundam series inside that box. "Amuro had an amulet containing what?!"
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May 14, 2023 07:41
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Caros posted:"Amuro had an amulet containing what?!" Wait Kai ended up doing... no, actually that tracks.
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May 14, 2023 07:58
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Omnicrom posted:Gaius covered a lot of the politics of the setting, but yeah that's about right. To explain what I mean by quantifiable, I mean that the theory of how psychic brainwaves works is understood well enough that Zeon is able to build the Elmeth, which seems to work fine (at least with Lalah driving it) and the same technology is used to produce Bits and Funnels. Given that this isn't mass-produced I assume it's an unusual but identifiable factor (Glemy deals with it by cloning Ple, which is an efficient way to address the issue I suppose) and it can be produced with the Cyber Newtype process, that is something that presumably people study and write papers about and poo poo. So basically the chain would be "this psychic factor exists, and was associated with Amuro Ray, who is generally agreed to be a newtype" -> "this psychic factor is 'Newtype'" -> "this psychic factor arises easily in space and was first developed by Zeon" -- it's a chain of poo poo. Newtype is used to mean a ton of things which I like because it's a messy concept, like "freedom" or "good Star Wars."
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May 14, 2023 08:15
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G-Gundam is just Eurovision with mecha.
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May 14, 2023 08:53
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Also, one thing that doesn't get pulled up is this: Just because someone is a newtype, doesn't mean they're a good person, or the kind of person you want in government.
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May 14, 2023 19:52
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Fivemarks posted:Also, one thing that doesn't get pulled up is this: Just because someone is a newtype, doesn't mean they're a good person, or the kind of person you want in government. I don't know, that Char fellow and that Scirocco guy certainly had some pull.
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May 14, 2023 19:53
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Arc Hammer posted:I don't know, that Char fellow and that Scirocco guy certainly had some pull. If more of them were like Scirocco, you'd have trouble keeping them out of government.
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May 14, 2023 19:56
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Begemot posted:If more of them were like Scirocco, you'd have trouble keeping them out of government. Kamille saved the UC a big headache by killing Scirocco so early. I know there's a lot of What-Ifs in the games but doubt there's one that goes over this. But a Scirocco who survives the events of Zeta seems like he'd be a huge threat and make everything so much worse.
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May 14, 2023 22:06
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Zeon Zum Deikun idn't exactly come up with the idea of new age indigo children all by himself but it is insane that any government even a space fairing one with 1970's sensibilities would ever write that shot into a constitution. They're like Posadists or something.
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May 14, 2023 22:27
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Regardless of anything else, newtype is a real good word.
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May 15, 2023 00:13
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https://twitter.com/eyecager/status/1657813381141921793?t=dPWyvD0rX5OU0hEV02eYNw&s=19
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May 15, 2023 01:21
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If Laplace's box had just been a gurantee for Colonial Independence after 100 years of federation rule you'd solve drat near every problem in the setting. The Vist and federation would still need it covered up, Zeon would still need it, but they'd want to blackmail with it instead of announcing it because One Zeon vs. Evil Federation sells better than Six Equal Sides each independent and needing not a political/social force to guide them, and it's reveal by Mineva would probably not mean as much as people would think because for better or worse most colonies are better off in the federation than they are on their own; and their disentanglement from the Federation makes more sense as a slow unwinding like we see in F91/Victory/Crossbone
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May 15, 2023 02:21
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Fivemarks posted:Also, one thing that doesn't get pulled up is this: Just because someone is a newtype, doesn't mean they're a good person, or the kind of person you want in government. "There are bad spacenoids, they maybe they don't deserve equal representation" is certainly an interesting take
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May 15, 2023 02:45
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Arc Hammer posted:https://twitter.com/eyecager/status/1657813381141921793?t=dPWyvD0rX5OU0hEV02eYNw&s=19 Considering some of the crazy poo poo I've already seen people make in that game it's only a matter of time before someone makes a fully functional Gundam in it
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May 15, 2023 02:46
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Seemlar posted:"There are bad spacenoids, they maybe they don't deserve equal representation" is certainly an interesting take Yeah, spacenoids have proven themselves time and time again to be incapable of self government or management. The federations problem was loosening the yoke.
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May 15, 2023 02:48
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Seemlar posted:"There are bad spacenoids, they maybe they don't deserve equal representation" is certainly an interesting take This isn't twitter, I didn't say that poo poo. Spacenoids absolutely need to have a say in government, and the Earth Federation hosed itself by not giving the Sides that stayed loyal in the OYW suffrage after the end of the war. But Newtypes shouldn't get to have a position in government just because they're a newtype- that's dumb.
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May 15, 2023 02:48
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The Charter specifically says they'll have priority in government not participation.
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May 15, 2023 02:51
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NikkolasKing posted:Kamille saved the UC a big headache by killing Scirocco so early. Scirocco is actually pretty cool with following someone who proves they're a competent leader, though - he takes over the Titans from Jamitov because he runs a very poor ship and lets morons like Bask and Jamaican do whatever they want. Being competent is how you avoid getting assassinated by Scirocco in the Gihren's Greed games when you play as Jamitov (I mean, mechanically you can wait out the game and let your morality score tick up to the max regardless of what you do before you activate the event trigger, but it's a lot easier if you don't do 'evil' things). The key to avoid getting conveniently shot is 1) Don't do anything that Bask recommends 2) Take Scirocco up on his offer to take care of Bask for you.
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May 15, 2023 03:04
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Gaius Marius posted:The Charter specifically says they'll have priority in government not participation. The charter said that if a new space evolved offshoot of humanity was proven to exist, it would be a priority for the Federation to give them a place in the government. It wasn't saying they would be given priority rule over the rest. Fivemarks posted:This isn't twitter, I didn't say that poo poo. Spacenoids absolutely need to have a say in government, and the Earth Federation hosed itself by not giving the Sides that stayed loyal in the OYW suffrage after the end of the war. But Newtypes shouldn't get to have a position in government just because they're a newtype- that's dumb. I'm simply inclined to lean towards everything we've seen showing they probably should get a seat at the table considering they are an unambiguous evolutionary branch of humanity with unique issues and viewpoints, not to mention that they are in general heavily abused and exploited. it actually might have done a lot for them to be actually recognized as a people rather than the science projects and living weapons they never escape being treated as even at the further points of the UC that we've so far encountered. I think someone already mentioned that the only ambiguity when it comes to the original charter with this is that Newtypes technically aren't only space based, since people on Earth can manifest as well.
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May 15, 2023 03:30
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Seemlar posted:The charter said that if a new space evolved offshoot of humanity was proven to exist, it would be a priority for the Federation to give them a place in the government. It wasn't saying they would be given priority rule over the rest. I think that by latching onto Newtypes as being inherently better because they're a next step in evolution, we're making a mistake that got talked about a lot in other gundam series- or hell, even in the stuff Tomino made directly. Because they're still ultimately people, and putting them up on a pedestal as better because they're newtypes is the same, in a lot of ways, as shoving them into weapons because they're newtypes. One's obviously worse than the other, though, but going "A newtype should be in government because they're a newtype" is still seeing them as a Newtype, not a human being. I dunno if I'm phrasing it right here. The problem isn't the idea of Newtypes in government, the problem is the idea that newtypes are inherently superior. But like, if we look at this entire thing through the "I think I understand Tomino" lens, and go "Newtypes stand in for the youth and the next generation, and Oldtypes for the older generations in power," then yeah absolutely they should because "The old shut the young out of power, gently caress things up for them, and don't listen to them and then leave them the problem to fix" has been a problem forever. Edit: So I guess what i'm saying is, Newtypes should absolutely have a voice in government and be involved in stuff 'cause they're the future, but you shouldn't just give tons of power to every single Newtype just because they're a Newtype, and while you should give them a voice in government you shouldn't give them control in government. And the Scirocco's Newtype Queen idea was bad.
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May 15, 2023 03:42
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Fivemarks posted:The problem isn't the idea of Newtypes in government, the problem is the idea that newtypes are inherently superior. who's saying this?
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May 15, 2023 04:15
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