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birdstrike posted:Just build a train line to the wonderland site Hear me out - bulk freight trams edit: well, poo poo 
Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 14:22 on May 13, 2023 |
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May 13, 2023 14:19
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Light rail has been a thing forever. It probably predates trucks as we know them. Infrastructure is always tricky, though a lot of places invest so poorly in it I've seen a major terminal's massive railway line actually go unused in favour of yet more goddamn trucks going right through the middle of the town. Penny-pinching management WILL ride their own infrastructure into the ground, and throw tantrums if they're forced not to.
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May 13, 2023 17:14
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Recoome posted:Days since Melbourne had a neo-nazi rally At least this time the cops bashed them instead of protecting them
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May 14, 2023 00:11
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GrandMaster posted:At least this time the cops bashed them instead of protecting them Cops fighting amongst themselves in a big pile.
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May 14, 2023 00:18
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Light rail has been a thing forever. It probably predates trucks as we know them. Ahhh, I see you know about how the wa state government leased the grain rail network out to a private company for 99 years for gently caress all, and then the company decided they weren't making enough money on it, so they just shut it down and moved all the grain onto trucks where they didn't have to pay for network upkeep.
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May 14, 2023 01:08
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NPR Journalizard posted:Ahhh, I see you know about how the wa state government leased the grain rail network out to a private company for 99 years for gently caress all, and then the company decided they weren't making enough money on it, so they just shut it down and moved all the grain onto trucks where they didn't have to pay for network upkeep. Heh, I'm not even talking about WA. Privatisation has been a scourge that's made common wisdom thanks to daddy Reagan.
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May 14, 2023 04:44
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Tokamak posted:you are also suggesting relocating an existing industrial area near a large population centre to farmland. how will people work and live there? a project like this would take a long time to plan and develop... kind of like what they are already doing with the new airport. you seem to be trying to want things both ways (a quick fix, and a comprehensive solution). it doesn't follow that some empty land near a railway line would inherently be a good spot for industry. You could extend the train line to the current depot, but putting a whole new corridor in would surely be more disruptive. And the depot is such a dog's breakfast that it'd be hard to maximise the efficiency there anyway. I don't think moving it would be as hard as it sounds - they're not dense office buildings, they're cavernous warehouses, you could probably take them apart and pick up and move a lot of them. And once you take the space you need for all the trucks out of the equation you can downsize significantly and make the whole thing way more efficient. And any warehouses that are left in their current spot could be used for some wicked new indoor venues in the west. Also it's not really an "industrial" area, they're just sorting stuff not making stuff, and it's not going to farmland, it's disused industrial land which is currently on the market, and it's literally 10 km down the road, not like it's out in the country. And it's on the train line, which the current location famously isn't. So people living and working there will be fine. Potentially great, even. Electric Wrigglies posted:You know what you call a train only hauling a few containers? A road train! There is already a whole network ready for them - multi lanes, flexible, utilising infrastructure also used by people traffic and everything! It really doesn't. Taking cargo off the road and onto rail make a massive difference. Even if the CO2/Kg/Km were the same, it would be way better for society as a whole, with massive knock-on effects. Not that I was particularly serious about the "few containers at at time" thing. But I think if you left the peak hours alone, sent some during the day, and pump it through from 10 pm to 5 am, the net benefit would be substantial. Recoome posted:The issue is that you are looking at some of the picture with enough knowledge to have an opinion, but not enough to start seeing how these changes interact with the broader system. well let's see how these changes interact with the broader system then sir Capt.Whorebags posted:I've stayed at the Meriton apartments at Mascot and 24 hours a day trucks are moving single shipping containers from the depot on Canal Road to Port Botany, a distance of about 10-12km by road. You'd think there would have to be some kind of way to improve it but with the airport in the way I don't think there is. There is a rail line right there, which connects right from the docks to the green line. Well, crosses the green line (at Sydenham / Tillman park), you'd need to make a connection, but it looks like there's room for it. Then the green line runs nicely all the way along the southern side of Sydney, below the M5, to Glenfield. Then build 6 km of new track like Tokomak said, along the corridor created by the blue/purple line to Leppington. If we did the numbers, that investment would have a wildly disproportionate return. Currently it looks like that airport freight line connects to... the orange line, at Marrickville? That seems pretty disruptive to the commuter network. Where does it go from there if it's heading north I wonder? All the way round to Lidcombe and then back down to Strathfield to head up through Hornsby? So there we go, this way we'd actually be taking freight out of the commuter rail system. Except for the people who used the green line I guess, but we can give them some extra nice busses or something. And they'll get roads without trucks, so it's still a good deal. dr_rat posted:And it's not lot like there isn't a whole lot of people in transport logistics who would be spending many the day wishing there was a simpler solution available, and thinking about all the different ones out there. Particular if you constantly had to deal with poo poo like trucks breaking down or getting delayed by random road closures and what not. Well cool if anyone has any of these different and simpler solutions please let's hear some of them And yes, happy to consider zeppelins of course. Ships surely have to start using more sails as well. Megillah Gorilla posted:Hear me out - bulk freight trams These things sharing space with the rest of the road freaks me out NPR Journalizard posted:Ahhh, I see you know about how the wa state government leased the grain rail network out to a private company for 99 years for gently caress all, and then the company decided they weren't making enough money on it, so they just shut it down and moved all the grain onto trucks where they didn't have to pay for network upkeep. Um excuse me I think you'll find those decisions were made by civil engineers with PhDs, and it's the best it can be given the circumstances and furthermore how dare you
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May 15, 2023 02:03
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Bucky Fullminster posted:There hasn’t been any milquetoast critique or even any response to why it’s not feasible, beyond “you might need to put a third line in”. 1. Putting in a new rail line, even a short one, is incredibly expensive, drawn out, and unpopular. People who own the land on which the rail line will protest, the people who are <not> serviced by the rail line will also protest, and this is all before you’ve even broken ground. Someone asked you who lives in the red circled area and you sort of brushed off the question but it’s a fundamental question to be answered and might be a reason why such a project is a non starter 2. Not putting in a rail line means leaving things as is. You might have an argument that you find trucks incredibly disruptive, they’re noisy, pollute, kill 50 people per year etc but the people in this area might have decided this is simply the cost of business and are happy with this. The advantage of trucks over rail is that it can be scaled easier, need to move more or less goods, put more or less trucks on the road. One road closed for construction or maintenance, re-route your trucks for the day/week/month. Also trucks go right to your door, any rail depot would need some system for transporting goods from the train to the respective warehouse so you haven’t eliminated all trucks, just the trucks through the middle bit of point a and point b 3. Similar to point 2, the scalability of trucks means you can appropriately wind up or wind down freight as the needs of community or society change. You need to be assured that the transportation needs between these two points will be the same in 50 years as they are now. If they reduce over those 50 years, it’s not worth the time/cost investment. If they <increase> it’s actually really hard to scale rail infrastructure <up> and you end up with a situation where you’re now running a train <and> convoys of trucks to keep up with demand I’m not a civil engineer so someone with a PhD could probably come up with other reasons. My experience comes from living on the Gold Coast when they built a light rail from one end of the city to the other in time for the commonwealth games a few years ago. It was a major issue throughout its 10 year construction and every prediction in terms of money, time, and problems it caused came out to be worse than predicted on paper and this was in spite of being designed by teams of civil engineers, some, presumably, with phd’s
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May 15, 2023 02:43
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Serrath posted:1. Putting in a new rail line, even a short one, is incredibly expensive, drawn out, and unpopular. People who own the land on which the rail line will protest, the people who are <not> serviced by the rail line will also protest, and this is all before you’ve even broken ground. Someone asked you who lives in the red circled area and you sort of brushed off the question but it’s a fundamental question to be answered and might be a reason why such a project is a non starter 1. It's an existing rail line, with ample space for an additional track or two on both sides along almost all of it. I didn't brush off the question, I physically went and actually had a look and reported back with photos, it's disused industrial land that's currently for sale. 2-3. I'm not talking about getting rid of trucks altogether, I'm talking about moving as much as we can to rail, which I think would be easily over 50%, and potentially up to 80-90%. Anything that does need a truck can still go on a truck, and will have a much easier time of it. And we're not talking about a light rail in a city that was built for one event and needed a whole new corridor, this is stuff that's going to need to be moved every day until the heat death of the universe Bucky Fullminster fucked around with this message at 03:05 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 03:00
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol 2023 - (de)rail zone
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May 15, 2023 03:22
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bucky you should play cities: skylines
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May 15, 2023 03:48
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either way, you will need to build a new line from the existing freight line to the western sydney airport. they are already planning this. it is going to take time and money to develop in either case. they are already in the middle of constructing a new intermodal terminal with a spur line from the existing freight line. they wouldn't use the green line because that isn't the freight line, and is two tracks for a segment. in fact, the new spur runs alongside it. that they are willing to lay down new line including a new bridge in order to avoid appropriating existing commuter rail should indicate the relative merit of your idea. this conversation is pointless.
Tokamak fucked around with this message at 04:16 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 04:14
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Tokamak posted:either way, you will need to build a new line from the existing freight line to the western sydney airport. they are already planning this. it is going to take time and money to develop in either case. they are already in the middle of constructing a new intermodal terminal with a spur line from the existing freight line. they wouldn't use the green line because that isn't the freight line, and is two tracks for a segment (in fact, the new spur runs alongside it). What is the existing freight line exactly? And according to the thing you posted they don't seem to be actually planning it yet, they're literally just reserving some land for when they think about it in the future. But also, this is literally 9 km from the new western airport at Badgerys Creek, and can connect to it way easier whatever they're considering now. And why couldn't they use the green line - does freight actually need a different type of track, or is it just an issue of traffic and designation? Cos I think we could actually get away with taking commuters off it if we had to.
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May 15, 2023 04:34
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freight rail is federal and commuter rail is state. they try to maintain separate lines, but there are parts that are leased (for example, along the south coast). there is already a freight line in the area that connects to port botany, so they wouldn't lease redundant rail. it is also why i would expect them to build an additional freight line alongside the leppington line (so it connects to and operates independently of the commuter line). to explain why one proposal is better than the other would require an understanding of the development of the western sydney airport, surrounding areas, and the new rail lines that serve it. determining and reserving a new corridor is literally the first step in planning a new rail line. if you are interested in learning about it, you just need to read about it on your own time. i had to read some new things in order to answer some of your questions. i can't answer what you are asking to your satisfaction without wading through years of development documents, but you should be doing that and not me. it becomes a lot clearer the more you read on the subject. it is an interesting subject, but like most things it is complicated, and can't be easily digested over a casual forum conversation.
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May 15, 2023 05:18
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GoldStandardConure posted:bucky you should play cities: skylines this is the more fun outlet for this stuff
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May 15, 2023 05:20
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Well I appreciate the time you've given already, thanks. Just so we're clear, this is what we're talking about :  Big red oval is current distribution "depot", little red circle is the location I'm proposing at Leppington. Blue circle is the new airport. Yellow arrow is how far they've got with "planning" the new corridor. (there is also a pretty cool MTB park there). Question mark is the current state of affairs. Where the gently caress it's going to go from there is anyone's guess, but whatever it is it sure sounds expensive and disruptive. Bright Green Line is what I'm suggesting, along the exisiting corridor of the (possibly re-designated) dark green line, with extensions to the new airport if need be. e - Tokamak posted:
This is from that link, I really don't see any way for this to feasibly work: 
Bucky Fullminster fucked around with this message at 07:13 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 05:54
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proposal: dual-mode trucks, like the O-Bahn in Adelaide, so we combine both trucks and trains into one. even better if they are electric trucks.
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May 15, 2023 06:18
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The big red oval is a bunch of warehousing/logistics and a huge data centre. One of the warehouses was Scott's refrigerated logistics (my old employer) who is now out of business and the other is coles. FedEx/tnt are there too. Coles use trucks to move poo poo because guess what there is not enough rail lines near all their stores and they only send required stock to stores. It is far more efficient to load a truck, drive to the store and unload than to include a train in any of that. Can't argue for/against trains for fedex but they already have distribution at the airport and likely at the new airport and generally speaking their product is getting poo poo delivered quickly which trains are not good at doing. Scott's also made use of rail, the last CEO making it a priority to use more. Look where it got them!
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May 15, 2023 06:56
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Laserface posted:The big red oval is a bunch of warehousing/logistics and a huge data centre. They're all there - DHL, Toll, Linfox, Woolworths, Auspost, all the other random little ones, etc. If you need to use trucks for supermarkets or whatever else that's fine. I'd like to see some of them go along the rail network to different suburban centres, but think that's getting into impractical fantasy territory. Hopefully we could use this to send a lot of them out of the Sydney basin at least though. And the last Scott's CEO was dealing with a lovely rail network!
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May 15, 2023 07:12
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Bucky Fullminster posted:They're all there - DHL, Toll, Linfox, Woolworths, Auspost, all the other random little ones, etc. there was no rail transport for Scotts in NSW. E: as pointed out earlier, rail is flaky. one derailment can close a line for months. there was very, very regular derailments or blockages for other reasons (floods, fire etc)
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May 15, 2023 07:16
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We should extend an olive branch to our Japanese friends and get them to build us some loving shinkansens
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May 15, 2023 07:28
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Can't we just make a series of tunnels through the earth and roll everything down them in gyroscopic balls and hope they turn up in the right spot, like in the second mortal kombat movie. It seemed to work pretty well in that 
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May 15, 2023 07:49
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That's how you get godzillas.
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May 15, 2023 07:53
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Hmm, well as godzillas tend to go for cities and walk in stright'ish paths demolishing everything in their path, I mean seems a Godzilla attack or two seems like it might actually be a pretty easy way to clear way for new train lines through a city with out decades of red tape. People always say Godzilas are good and poo poo like this is why!
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May 15, 2023 08:18
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I've seen an Eva unit punch a hole through a mountain with a giant particle beam, surely they can save time and money on TBMs by doing that
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May 15, 2023 08:19
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Bucky Fullminster posted:They're all there - DHL, Toll, Linfox, Woolworths, Auspost, all the other random little ones, etc. All this thought and it sort of goes out the window when you live in WA and about once a year there's a problem with the train line, derailment, flood, heat, you name it. And suddenly the shops can't get anything because all the supermarket packaging hubs are over east. Picked in WA, sent to NSW, sent back to WA. Take all those trucks off the road and you won't have viable alternatives when your rail line inevitably meets a gently caress up. Multiple redundancies are a good thing in a logistics chain.
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May 15, 2023 08:36
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Bucky Fullminster posted:
Yes, absolutely. The weight of track - (ie strength rating for track to handle passenger wagons vs freight), the power infrastructure for the overhead catenary, the gauge for underpasses, width, tunnels, etc, the siding lengths, the segment lengths between signals, the gradients and bend radiuses, time tolerances, all must be within specifications and some of those specifications are hilariously expensive to meet for different duty. In summary, the rail track itself is highly specialized for the role it is intended. Any use you have? Another complete rail system that must be kept (for the most part) separated from the other ones. Japan has multiple track systems for different speed rail and then separate ones for freight traffic. Yes, it is hugely expensive and relies upon Japanese working culture of endless hours of work to make happen. And your thought about Woolies sorting goods, then putting on a train to take to a suburban re-sorter, then put onto trucks there - tells me; again, that you don't grasp that putting something on a train and back off again at the other end will cost as much alone as loading a truck and driving to the final destination. That is with zero cost allowed for any rail portion. Transshipment of freight (ie cargo that does not self-load like people) costs surprisingly big money.
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May 15, 2023 08:46
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There definitely should be more use of trains in a country like this with massive overland distances between large city centres, and there was in the past. Road culture just kinda hosed up a lot of things. That said, they require a huge investment and as America has proven, having passenger and freight share tracks or even infrastructure is actually a really bad idea. Also wondering how much is easier to do via ship considering almost all those city centres are coastal.
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May 15, 2023 08:48
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Konomex posted:Multiple redundancies are a good thing in a logistics chain. This was made abundantly clear during covid. Outsourcing parts to make something, to other countries, who than outsources parts to make those parts, etc, with each leg requiring shipping, completely hosed some industries and even when shipping started to sort itself out, it took forever to unfuck. If somethings vital, always make sure you have options available if it failures unless there really is no other option.
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May 15, 2023 08:50
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Ghost Leviathan posted:
Ding ding ding. Ship is a fraction of the cost - like a third of the cost from east coast to west coast. Ships for long distance, trucks for short distance. Rail for huge point to point volumes over a long period of time or metro. With electric trucks and busses seemingly not far away and especially if they can be automated, rail is becoming even more marginal relatively speaking.
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May 15, 2023 09:16
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Yeah, that makes sense. Even in ancient times, travel by waterways has always been waaaay more efficient and easy, especially since all the in-between infrastructure- that is, water- is already there for you and requires little maintenance. Like, having huge and robust freight trains makes much more sense in the US where you have major urban centres literally on opposite sides of the continent, and even then you've got the Panama Canal.
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May 15, 2023 09:19
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In news that isn't Bucky shouting at clouds, you might have seen the Government settle regarding the PFOA/PFAS stuff https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-15/pfas-class-action-commonsettlement-reached-with-30-000-claimants/102346274 Now the big open secret though is this PFOA/PFAS poo poo is absolutely everywhere, and I mean everywhere. There's something like 70 contamination sites in Brisbane alone where PFOA/PFAS contamination has occurred due to business/local/state government which means a potential can o' worms for liability. The other issue is that PFOA/PFAS is in poo poo like fabric softener. The Defence was an easy first target so I'll wonder how this will evolve. The good news is that there really isn't a ton of evidence to suggest actual health issues beyond psychosomatic impacts - the DuPont guys who are full of the stuff are still fine and they'll be the canary in the coal mine. The people who got the payout built, or were allowed to build right up to military bases or were doing stuff like drinking untreated/untested bore water (which ain't great regardless). Great that the government has paid something I guess but overall interesting to see what happens next.
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May 15, 2023 09:28
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Recoome posted:The good news is that there really isn't a ton of evidence to suggest actual health issues beyond psychosomatic impacts - yeah but they are really bad for my parrot so we should ban them
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May 15, 2023 09:45
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dr_rat posted:Can't we just make a series of tunnels through the earth and roll everything down them in gyroscopic balls and hope they turn up in the right spot, like in the second mortal kombat movie. Sub Zero's down there though, I don't want to have to deal with him every time I use a ball
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May 15, 2023 09:48
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Non Compos Mentis posted:Sub Zero's down there though, I don't want to have to deal with him every time I use a ball Like why the hostility thou? Have you tried just having a chat with them? Make friends not underground death fights!
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May 15, 2023 09:53
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Hey Boss, I'm gonna be off work for a while, I forgot to bring my bucket of water and Sub Zero's in the ball tube station again. I'll talk to you once I've thawed out.
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May 15, 2023 10:11
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Bucky Fullminster posted:This is from that link, I really don't see any way for this to feasibly work:  fyi, some of the train plans are out of date, but it is one of the more illustrative ones for the region. it makes more sense when you see all the other lines they are planning to build in the west. it is simpler to build the new purple line from the new outer sydney freight line to the existing industrial area, then extending it to the existing freight line, than it is to relocate everything. you also get a new intermodal facility to literally service the area you are complaining about and will continue to provide jobs for western sydney, while keeping the leppington area open to future growth for south west sydney. i don't understand why you don't think it will feasibly work, since they are already working on it. the whole region has been mapped out for future growth based around the airport. nothing is stopping you from reading about this stuff. you don't even seem to know where the existing freight line is located, or why that green line would be redundant even going with your plan. just do a little bit of reading please. if you enjoyed doing a little thought experiment with your plan, then reading what they are actually doing is fun too. Tokamak fucked around with this message at 13:08 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 13:05
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Well I appreciate the time you've given already, thanks. Leppington is not "empty land", and I have no idea why you would think that. It's the epicentre of a major development precinct to build thousands of new homes, schools, recreation facilities, a town centre, community buildings, road and rail upgrades and so on, all because - get this - it has good access to Leppington station and the rest of Sydney's rail network. The project has literally been in the works for 10 years at this point: https://www.planning.nsw.gov.au/plans-for-your-area/priority-growth-areas-and-precincts/leppington/leppington-precinct-stage-1 I'm glad you went and took some serial-killer tier photos though!
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May 15, 2023 13:18
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Is there still time to derail from the rail-talk to bring you gentle goons my vision of a Civil Corps to replace volunteer firefighting and special emergency services? We could have a state-federal coalition of Frontline emergency response for such disasters as: bushfires, ambulances and this thread
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May 15, 2023 13:21
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dr_rat posted:This was made abundantly clear during covid. Outsourcing parts to make something, to other countries, who than outsources parts to make those parts, etc, with each leg requiring shipping, completely hosed some industries and even when shipping started to sort itself out, it took forever to unfuck. If somethings vital, always make sure you have options available if it failures unless there really is no other option. I think that's where this is coming from. The last few years have highlighted the fragility of global supply chains. All it takes is one stuck boat or a virus or a war or a hurricane for the whole house of cards to come crashing down. We didn't see it collapse completely, but we saw how easily it could be disrupted. Moving stuff around the way we do is extremely kilojoule-intensive, and the distribution of those very kilojoules is predicated on a lot of things in this network not going wrong. We import 91% of our petrol, at a cost of $20 billion per year, to throw straight on the fire. Then on top of that there's the fuel production itself - the extraction and refinement and shipping of toxic and highly flammable substances all over the world. And all in service of a system that's noisy and dangerous and routinely goes to poo poo with an accident and requires us to sacrifice one human a week. I think the less dependent we are on that, the better. In a similar vein I got the 50 page slide deck down to a single image:  That is hundreds of kilometers of completely separated track, that can be created with almost zero disruption to motorists, that will allow anyone with anything to go anywhere in Sydney, in complete comfort and safety, with almost zero emissions, zero noise, and zero parking problems, by just following the motorways, trainlines, and waterways. Which are all existing transport corridors, protected on one side, with minimal crossings, and often quite beautiful. All for the cost of a bit of green paint, and a handful of over passes. And about half of it is already built. Obviously, that would connect to the Leppington depot, and then if you can get some fancy e-contraptions and you could move a bunch of stuff around. Laserface posted:rail is flaky. one derailment can close a line for months. there was very, very regular derailments or blockages for other reasons (floods, fire etc) Electric Wrigglies posted:Yes, absolutely. The weight of track - (ie strength rating for track to handle passenger wagons vs freight), the power infrastructure for the overhead catenary, the gauge for underpasses, width, tunnels, etc, the siding lengths, the segment lengths between signals, the gradients and bend radiuses, time tolerances, all must be within specifications and some of those specifications are hilariously expensive to meet for different duty. Electric Wrigglies posted:With electric trucks and busses seemingly not far away and especially if they can be automated, rail is becoming even more marginal relatively speaking. Well tell that to the government I guess, because Tokomak says they appear to be planning to barrel through several suburbs with that yellow arrow to connect to a shared rail line. What I'm suggesting is to make them completely seperate , and give freight its own complete track anyway, so happy days, glad you're on board. As for electric trucks, how on earth are you going to store the energy required to move that volume of weight? A 3-tonner, sure, (Ikea are using them here already and they would complement this network quite well), but not a big semi-trailer. And you'd still need to sacrifice that human every week. Konomex posted:Multiple redundancies are a good thing in a logistics chain. Right well we'd better make sure the rail network is up to scratch then. And hey if you want some ships to sail the southern ocean then that's cool too, as long as the ocean doesn't mind. Tokamak posted:
The key question of where the gently caress that purple line is going to go appears still unresolved. How exactly is it going to connect to the freight line. I did find where it's located, it joins the orange line at Marrickville, then leaves again after Campsie, turning right to head north up to the light blue / yellow lines, through Flemington, the making a sharp left just before Strathfield to head up the red line through Concorde and Rhodes and Epping to join the Northern line at Hornsby. So lots of sharing. And we still have no clue how the hell anyone intends to connect it to the west, or how big the benefit will even be if there isn't a dedicated distribution centre to connect to. webmeister posted:Leppington is not "empty land", and I have no idea why you would think that. It's the epicentre of a major development precinct to build thousands of new homes, schools, recreation facilities, a town centre, community buildings, road and rail upgrades and so on, all because - get this - it has good access to Leppington station and the rest of Sydney's rail network. Because it's the epicentre of a development precinct, which is going to be built on empty land. And which will almost certainly be another low-density, unserviced, car-dependent suburban hellscape, cos we've managed everything else so well. But looking at their proposed map, this could still fit in around that anyway, so we're still good. 23 Skidoo posted:Is there still time to derail from the rail-talk to bring you gentle goons my vision of a Civil Corps to replace volunteer firefighting and special emergency services? Expand the SES, and include it as a "subject" in years 11/12, but don't mess with the volunteer model. Bucky Fullminster fucked around with this message at 17:32 on May 15, 2023 |
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May 15, 2023 14:31
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