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If you don't care then it doesn't matter. Ask for even more and if they say no, you're in exactly the same spot you were before.
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May 17, 2023 15:22
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m0therfux0r posted:I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but I have a question about preventing myself from looking like an idiot: Counter 140 or 150. It's not like you care if they say no and walk away.
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May 17, 2023 15:27
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m0therfux0r posted:I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but I have a question about preventing myself from looking like an idiot: For my current job nearly 10 years ago I tried to negotiate on PTO, they wouldn't budge. In my current round of searching, I brought it up a few times and half the places are scammy "unlimited" PTO (aka we don't pay out when we lay you off + you're going to take less time off) and the other places really don't want to budge on PTO for some reason. The place I went with said they could maybe negotiate on it if I could bring them some hard data about my current PTO being better. After looking more into it (because everyone without unlimited PTO has 4+ PTO buckets now that accrue at different rates), the starting PTO at the new place is higher than the PTO cap of my current place. leper khan posted:Counter 140 or 150. It's not like you care if they say no and walk away. Only if you're willing to take the job at that pay. I almost chased a job I didn't want for very high pay, and realized the high pay wasn't as important to me as getting a job I really want to do.
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May 17, 2023 15:29
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m0therfux0r posted:I'm probably getting ahead of myself here, but I have a question about preventing myself from looking like an idiot: You have great BATNA so don't worry feeling like an idiot, you should instead feel like they are trying to get you. Not only is your counter reasonable but its probably even a little low imo. Don't worry about them laughing you out of the room. Its good practice in general and they're just going to have to learn they can't offer 2009 salaries anymore. Chainclaw posted:
This is super important point for ANY negotiation. Lockback fucked around with this message at 15:34 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 15:32
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Lockback posted:You have great BATNA so don't worry feeling like an idiot, you should instead feel like they are trying to get you. With the huge amount of layoffs, I was worried that it would pressure pay downward. There are less openings and more people fighting for them and potentially willing to take a pay cut after being laid off. When I was searching a few months ago, pay was all over the place, but it also might be unique to my situation. I was mostly looking into games, with some traditional software jobs. I was trying to figure out if I wanted to get a job I was really passionate about with a pay cut, or bump my pay up with a traditional software job. The games industry has partially caught up to the traditional software industry pay, but there are definitely still a lot of places paying 1/3 to 1/2 the total comp of software industry pay for equivalent roles.
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May 17, 2023 15:43
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I have serious reservations about the wisdom of agreeing to continue with the process after being told the top of their range is $120K, then after going through the whole process and being offered $105K countering with $140. Although if you weren't aware at the time that their PTO/bennies suck, then found out about that later, that is a good justification for asking for a higher salary. If it were me and the minimum I'd accept was $130K and they told me the range was $80-120K, I'd have told them right then "sorry but that's still not the right range. It would need to be closer to $150K for me. Would you like to continue or does it make sense to end our conversation here?"
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May 17, 2023 16:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:I have serious reservations about the wisdom of agreeing to continue with the process after being told the top of their range is $120K, then after going through the whole process and being offered $105K countering with $140. Although if you weren't aware at the time that their PTO/bennies suck, then found out about that later, that is a good justification for asking for a higher salary. I don't disagree but OP also sounds like he could use some warmup interviews.
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May 17, 2023 16:08
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If you haven’t interviewed in a while, warm up interviews can be a very helpful thing. Getting on a plane to visit a place that has a hard limit 20% below your target, ehhhhhh but that doesn’t sound like that.
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May 17, 2023 16:21
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Tnuctip posted:If you haven’t interviewed in a while, warm up interviews can be a very helpful thing. Getting on a plane to visit a place that has a hard limit 20% below your target, ehhhhhh but that doesn’t sound like that. isn't everyone still doing interviews virtually? All mine were virtual. In some cases they were even spread out over a few days so I didn't even need to take PTO, it was really convenient. It was definitely way comfier this year interviewing in my pajamas at home instead of flying, getting sick from flying, and being tired from sleeping in a bad hotel bed.
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May 17, 2023 16:29
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Chainclaw posted:isn't everyone still doing interviews virtually? All mine were virtual. In some cases they were even spread out over a few days so I didn't even need to take PTO, it was really convenient. I’ve been pounding pavement like whoa the past month, but for a 2nd/3rd round interview in person is still very much a thing.
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May 17, 2023 16:31
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I'm doing all mine virtually. But we're remote first too. If its someone local I'll offer in person if they want but no one has asked for that.
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May 17, 2023 16:50
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Chainclaw posted:With the huge amount of layoffs, I was worried that it would pressure pay downward. There are less openings and more people fighting for them and potentially willing to take a pay cut after being laid off.
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May 17, 2023 17:00
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Chainclaw posted:isn't everyone still doing interviews virtually? All mine were virtual. In some cases they were even spread out over a few days so I didn't even need to take PTO, it was really convenient. For this company, the interviews have all been virtual, but it's for a 100% remote role. Coincidentally (to your post), right after I posted asking about "what do I do if I get an offer" they emailed me the details about my next interview and said that it's a 3.5 hour solid block of virtual interviews with the team. That sounds like a bit much to me considering I probably don't want this job, but I'm still thinking about it. Eric the Mauve posted:I have serious reservations about the wisdom of agreeing to continue with the process after being told the top of their range is $120K, then after going through the whole process and being offered $105K countering with $140. Although if you weren't aware at the time that their PTO/bennies suck, then found out about that later, that is a good justification for asking for a higher salary. I actually agree with this assessment- I'm just torn as to whether or not more interview practice is worth it. I have had a few interviews recently- the others didn't really go past 1 or 2 interviews. I had an in at one of the places I interviewed but I withdrew my application after finding out that they expected me to work 8-6 every day with an hour commute, otherwise I almost certainly would have gone farther in the process. I was actually surprised this particular one I'm interviewing for now is moving onto the next step- I thought I did an abnormally lovely job in my last interview with the hiring manager, but I guess I didn't. Now I'm just torn because I planned to keep going through interviews to see what happened and didn't expect the next one to require me taking a half day off of work. I did know what the benefits were fairly early on though- they're all *very slightly* worse than where I am now. The 401k match is 1% less and the yearly bonus target is 2% less, but the real sticking point for me is the PTO. As I type this out, I realize I'm really not interested in the job, which leads me to a separate point: My department is reorganizing a bit and no one knows the exact details- they've run a few things by us, but nothing is official yet. What they've run by us so far all sounds like really unappealing changes, but in depending on how it's rolled out it might not be so bad- I just truly have no idea what it will be like at this point. I guess I'm just worried that I'll hate it and then suddenly there will be no jobs for me to apply to. That's probably a ridiculous thought though right? I shouldn't bail now for a slightly worse job without knowing if mine is truly gonna suck or not. I'm wondering if I should just take Eric's suggestion and text back the first party recruiter I made initial contact with (who actually texted me today to tell me to feel free to send her any questions) and see if that $120k ceiling is truly a ceiling, along with asking about whether or not any benefits are negotiable. I was just worried it was too early in the process for me to be asking stuff like that. Apologies for writing a novel here, but this is really helping me work this out in my head.
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May 17, 2023 19:09
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m0therfux0r posted:I'm wondering if I should just take Eric's suggestion and text back the first party recruiter I made initial contact with (who actually texted me today to tell me to feel free to send her any questions) and see if that $120k ceiling is truly a ceiling, along with asking about whether or not any benefits are negotiable. I was just worried it was too early in the process for me to be asking stuff like that.
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May 17, 2023 20:09
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Your BATNA is pretty solid right now so I wouldn't panic take any job. I feel like most of the time the fear of change in a job is worse than the actual change, and I also don't think the job market will suddenly dry up. So you have plenty of time to see what the landscape looks like. There will be lots of jobs that are worse just waiting for you!
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May 17, 2023 20:22
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The recruiter got back to me and said "$120k is still the max. I don't know that we would max you out if you received an offer." So thanks for the advice! This just saved me 4 hours of interview time for a job that I definitely do not want.
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May 18, 2023 16:53
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So basically you should lie anytime a recruiter asks what you used to or currently make at a job right?
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May 18, 2023 17:21
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no, you just don't tell them
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May 18, 2023 17:24
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Tnuctip posted:So basically you should lie anytime a recruiter asks what you used to or currently make at a job right? It's a good opportunity to deploy some creative insults and really stretch yourself in that area. "How 'bout you go make sweet love to a table saw" was one of my personal favorites.
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May 18, 2023 17:26
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I did a lot more interviewing before I got my current job than... ever, I think. It wasn't only good practice at talking to people, it helped me formulate the kinds of questions I'd like to ask for subsequent interviews, and since it was all in the same industry, it gave me a glimpse into what a lot of different companies were thinking about.
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May 19, 2023 19:42
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Helped a friend negotiate a new offer. They didn’t say a number and asked for the offer in writing when the employer called asking for a verbal commit. I think I errored in not indicating how much % more to ask for, but they netted a few grand regardless. Edit: Of course HR made a ridiculous stink about them not negotiating verbally lol. HR is very dumb.
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May 20, 2023 23:11
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Assume you have just joined a company very recently (couple of weeks, say) as a senior IC. Comp was above your bottom line but not much. Assume you’re very quickly assigned a much broader role with a team to manage. Then after you outline your plans for the team the VP says ok, now add a couple more teams. This is cool and interesting work but now also very gruelling. You have a probationary period during which it is easy to quit with no notice (or be fired!) - this is not a US market and a real notice period will apply after that ends. It seems like coming up to end of probation would be a natural point to renegotiate your package, aiming for an out-of-cycle adjustment. If this is right, how would you approach it?
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May 24, 2023 03:39
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This is tough but do you have an employment contract? In particular the difference between IC and Manager is usually called out in those even if the rest is generic.
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May 24, 2023 03:49
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I think that's the kind of thing you address at the halfway point of the probationary period. Point out that the responsibilities that you are carrying out are great and fun, but they're also way above and beyond what you signed on for and you need to consider a new contract to reflect those and associated new package.
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May 24, 2023 04:01
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Beefeater1980 posted:Assume you have just joined a company very recently (couple of weeks, say) as a senior IC. Comp was above your bottom line but not much. Say you're happy with the role, but it doesn't match the scope of the hired role and you'd like to adjust comp to given the increased responsibilities and expectations. Be willing to walk away. Don't negotiate based on your prior rate, negotiate based on role performed. I'd start conversations no less than a month before the probationary period if you're worried about getting stuck. But I've also never not been at-will.
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May 24, 2023 04:06
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Does anyone have any suggestions for negotiating with a federal employer and GS ratings?
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May 25, 2023 05:26
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Thanks @lockback @arquinsiel @leper khan. On reflection my BATNA isn’t strong enough at this stage so this is sadly a goodwill / begging situation rather than a true negotiation. As always, look for an opportunity to change that is probably the way forward.
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May 25, 2023 06:01
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Red posted:Does anyone have any suggestions for negotiating with a federal employer and GS ratings? The GS level is pretty set by opm standards. You can negotiate steps, but that varies by agency as to how much leeway they give you. Helps if you're filling a hard to fill vacancy like IT.
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May 25, 2023 06:55
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Evil SpongeBob posted:The GS level is pretty set by opm standards. You can negotiate steps, but that varies by agency as to how much leeway they give you. Helps if you're filling a hard to fill vacancy like IT. This. The banding is pretty strict, so you're not going to be able to get them to take a posted GS-9, e.g. and make it an 11. However, there's often flexibility within the bands, and there's quite a difference between GS-9-1 and GS-9-6.
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May 25, 2023 07:04
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I'm up for a position that's GS-12, 13, or 14. 14 definitely seems out of reach, but 13 is possible - my assumption was (and others had suggested) that you'd always start at step 1. How does one justify steps beyond 1?
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May 25, 2023 15:09
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Beefeater1980 posted:Thanks @lockback @arquinsiel @leper khan. On reflection my BATNA isn’t strong enough at this stage so this is sadly a goodwill / begging situation rather than a true negotiation. As always, look for an opportunity to change that is probably the way forward.
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May 25, 2023 15:31
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Red posted:I'm up for a position that's GS-12, 13, or 14. 14 definitely seems out of reach, but 13 is possible - my assumption was (and others had suggested) that you'd always start at step 1. How does one justify steps beyond 1? I don't understand the word "justify" It's needed as a condition of accepting or not.
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May 25, 2023 16:50
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leper khan posted:I don't understand the word "justify" Ohhh, I'm assuming there's less negotiation with OPM and more 'I can start at step/rating X because'. From what I can see from advice in various articles, you can counter-offer, and if they decline, you just take the original offer.
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May 25, 2023 17:12
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Red posted:Ohhh, I'm assuming there's less negotiation with OPM and more 'I can start at step/rating X because'. You don't need the because. The because is because that's what you need to sign the offer. If they decline, you take it or walk, yes. Don't sleep on the "or walk" part of that.
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May 25, 2023 20:30
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leper khan posted:You don't need the because. The because is because that's what you need to sign the offer. I'm probably going to take it regardless, because benefits/pension.
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May 26, 2023 00:25
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I applied for a job my friend recommended and they actually reached out and offered a number upfront. $50-55k/yr, which would be a pretty significant pay cut from where I'm at now. It'd be interesting work, and I am a little curious about it, but I'm just going to need a bigger number to make it work. leper khan posted:You don't need the because. The because is because that's what you need to sign the offer. What I'm saying is that, for the first time in my professional life, I really understand what this means. I feel powerful.
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May 27, 2023 02:02
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hey all worked IT for 12 years now for a major insurance company. My degree isn't in computers, I've been self taught since my dad brought home a TRS-80. Stuck at the top of my payband with nowhere to go up to, and only stuck around since i've been a homeshore worker for 9 of those 12 years. WFH is a great perk. Over covid and still till now I've since done my Comptia A+ and Network+, should be testing on my sec+ in about a month or so. Since covid hit there have been waves of layoffs and I just wanted to be prepared for any October surprises. making about $70k with shift differential, im offshift internal helpdesk so I cover everything from escalation management to offshore contractor support to AD/exchange poo poo and change management support, along with our 30k employees calling in for normal helpdesk support. got an interview next week for a senior systems engineer at a small IaaS company, doing site support and small team management from what it seems like, which im all for. I've been weekend overnights for over a decade, i'll give up wfh to no longer be a vampire for my health. only weird red flag is the posted range on indeed- 60-90k. thats a wide bearth of a compensation offer, and talking to professionals i know they all say to ask for $100k. I've been horrible at this sort of thing, but speaking with a friend of mine they've said theyve gotten over any and all shame and guilt by reminding himself that he's raising his kids on the money, so get whatever you can. That knocked a lot of sense in me, and all the other goons I know around here pointed to this thread for advice. only other info i can think of is that they called me the day after I applied and scheduled an interview. looks like its about 15-25 people total. anything I should look at besides what i checked out in the OP? the delaying the salary talk as long as possible was really eye opening for me.
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May 27, 2023 08:32
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Nostalgia4Butts posted:hey all You have more leverage talking about comp when they want to hire you. Agreeing on comp early in the process can be useful to filter companies that aren't going to pay in your target range, but it's easier to get them to move up the further out you push it. Before you interview, you're one in a sea of potential candidates. After you interview, your the single person they want for the job. At 15-25 people, are they a lifestyle business or an early startup? If former, gut check on whether you like the owner. If the latter, ask about runway and hiring plan. Stack paper, friend. If it makes you feel better, you should know that _that guy_ (you know the one) always asks for more money, and you don't want to make less than _him_.
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May 27, 2023 14:51
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The Negotiation Thread: If the Latter, Ask About Running Away Ok so my brain doesn’t always get it right on the first pass…
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May 27, 2023 15:19
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"If it's a startup, run away" is not at all a bad policy.
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May 27, 2023 15:32
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