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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Metallurgy is hard Except when it isn't!
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May 18, 2023 03:16
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mikerock posted:Yes there's chemicals required in the hardening process that the Germans began to lack as the war progressed, so the armour became more brittle and less ductile. It resulted in more spalling and cracking. More spalling seems like a significant issue in the context of tank armor.
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May 18, 2023 03:19
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Voyager I posted:More spalling seems like a significant issue in the context of tank armor. It's just as bad, if not worse in warships. The hits they take are WAY more spicy.
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May 18, 2023 03:27
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A contrast is one brought up earlier in the Imperial German Navy. Krupp's armour being produced at the time was excellent. At Jutland the British battlecruisers were literally blowing up while the German ones were absorbing insane amounts of damage and surviving. Part of this is due to different design philosophies and conceptions of the battlecruiser, but the German armour was definitely doing its job.
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May 18, 2023 03:43
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mikerock posted:A contrast is one brought up earlier in the Imperial German Navy. Krupp's armour being produced at the time was excellent. At Jutland the British battlecruisers were literally blowing up while the German ones were absorbing insane amounts of damage and surviving. Part of this is due to different design philosophies and conceptions of the battlecruiser, but the German armour was definitely doing its job. Any fair assessment of the battle of Jutland has the British sinking four battlecruisers and the Germans none.
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May 18, 2023 03:58
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meatbag posted:Any fair assessment of the battle of Jutland has the British sinking four battlecruisers and the Germans none. The British lost 3 battlecruisers and 3 armored cruisers though? And yeah one was self inflicted if I recall, but that's not zero. quote:Fourteen British and eleven German ships sank, with a total of 9,823 casualties. After sunset, and throughout the night, Jellicoe manoeuvred to cut the Germans off from their base, hoping to continue the battle the next morning, but under the cover of darkness Scheer broke through the British light forces forming the rearguard of the Grand Fleet and returned to port.
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May 18, 2023 04:15
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meatbag posted:Any fair assessment of the battle of Jutland has the British sinking four battlecruisers and the Germans none. 
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May 18, 2023 04:30
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CommieGIR posted:The British lost 3 battlecruisers and 3 armored cruisers though? And yeah one was self inflicted if I recall, but that's not zero. The British crossed the German's T TWICE. They had some technical and doctrinal issues with their fleet which resulted in more losses than they should have suffered, but they outmaneuvered the Germans despite clinging to antiquated communications techniques.
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May 18, 2023 04:33
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mikerock posted:Yes there's chemicals required in the hardening process that the Germans began to lack as the war progressed, so the armour became more brittle and less ductile. It resulted in more spalling and cracking. I'm wondering too if it also had to do with a loss of corporate knowledge and capability cause by the disarmament at the end of the Great War, and the subsequent suspension of capital ship construction fifteen years or so. mikerock posted:The British crossed the German's T TWICE. They had some technical and doctrinal issues with their fleet which resulted in more losses than they should have suffered, but they outmaneuvered the Germans despite clinging to antiquated communications techniques. That, and Beatty's handling of the battlecruisers before and during the battle was frankly terrible and the main thing that prevented him from taking his well-earned portion of poo poo for what happened was the fact that he became the First Sea Lord as the report on Jutland was being completed and he suppressed the original version. For his part, Jellicoe handled the Grand Fleet with skill and his battleships acquitted themselves well-- they dished out a tremendous amount of punishment and were let down primarily by defective caps on their armour piercing rounds. But he got to take the blame for Jutland being what it was because the man most responsible literally ordered history to be rewritten. Fearless fucked around with this message at 04:57 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 04:48
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mikerock posted:The British crossed the German's T TWICE. They had some technical and doctrinal issues with their fleet which resulted in more losses than they should have suffered, but they outmaneuvered the Germans despite clinging to antiquated communications techniques. Oh I'm aware, just saying that to claim they sunk nothing on the British side isn't really true It was never going to be a German victory.
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May 18, 2023 04:50
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Wait there's people who claim that the Germans didn't sink any British warships? Am I reading that right?
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May 18, 2023 05:23
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Fearless posted:I'm wondering too if it also had to do with a loss of corporate knowledge and capability cause by the disarmament at the end of the Great War, and the subsequent suspension of capital ship construction fifteen years or so. German government and industry kept working in the interwar period, still building ships and creating clandestine departments specifically designed to retain institutional knowledge (The Truppenamt for example, the collaboration with the Soviets on tank experiments for another). It was definitely a lack of internal ability to support industry without imported materials that resulted in the decline in quality of produced materials once the war began, and the need for the imported materials ramped up in tandem with expanded production goals. quote:That, and Beatty's handling of the battlecruisers before and during the battle was frankly terrible and the main thing that prevented him from taking his well-earned portion of poo poo for what happened was the fact that he became the First Sea Lord as the report on Jutland was being completed and he suppressed the original version. For his part, Jellicoe handled the Grand Fleet with skill and his battleships acquitted themselves well-- they dished out a tremendous amount of punishment and were let down primarily by defective caps on their armour piercing rounds. But he got to take the blame for Jutland being what it was because the man most responsible literally ordered history to be rewritten. 100% For Ukraine content - I saw a vid today of a soldier being saved by a tourniquet after some close fighting with Russians. Any tips on legit frontline medical charities I can donate to?
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May 18, 2023 05:34
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CommieGIR posted:Oh I'm aware, just saying that to claim they sunk nothing on the British side isn't really true I was referring to British ammunition handling practices, the three British battlecruisers sunk were own goals
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May 18, 2023 05:41
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Hyrax Attack! posted:I forgot the poor oxen performing a critical task were starving. Meanwhile on their super battleship the admirals had a luxury dining room with elite chefs. Even with convoys US losses were staggering. Logistics is very hard, the US dedicated an enormous amount of resources and accepted large losses to get it done.
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May 18, 2023 05:56
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To go withe the hundreds of destroyed Himars, Bradleys, and Leopards Shoigu is saying that they destroyed 5 launchers with a single Kinzhal strike. https://news.yahoo.com/russia-stated-kinzhal-destroyed-5-182658991.html
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May 18, 2023 06:33
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by next month russia will have destroyed more patriot systems than have been produced
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May 18, 2023 06:41
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mikerock posted:Yeah the quality of German armour plummeted, and at the end of the war was way less effective than early war production. Ball bearing production was also disrupted several times. Overall quality of just about everything went downhill. A lot of this was also that Germany manufactured about 70 varieties of tanks because every Nazi middle manager made their favorites to score points with their bosses, while the Allies made... three? two? Thus German production was divided in about 70 different ways and it turned out 6 Shermans or 8 T-34s can beat a Tiger no matter how well the Tiger performed in field tests.
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May 18, 2023 07:10
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ded posted:by next month russia will have destroyed more patriot systems than have been produced This is what happens when you fight glorious Russian bear
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May 18, 2023 07:23
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The difference between Allied and German tanker memoirs is that the Allied one gets to a point where they get hit, complains for a bit about the superiority of German guns, then says something like 'anyway that evening I made it to the depot and got issued my replacement tank and got a new crew member to replace poor Bert, and got to be third in column for the next days' advance', whereas the German account reaches a similar point and then says 'anyway for the next 6 months I walked around doing other stuff'.
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May 18, 2023 07:25
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the only place german tanks do better than what they did in reality is on computer games
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May 18, 2023 08:06
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This one makes me wince a little - Ukranians firing 40mm HEDP grenades out of some wonderful pipe-gun dropped into a mortar, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1_gqhpcqiE
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May 18, 2023 08:13
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mlmp08 posted:While it is true that there's an argument to be made that strat bombing of Japan in particular was effective, it was also monstrous and brutally indiscriminate. I've gotta imagine that most of this was a function of the technological limitations at the time. Modern weapons are precise enough that they should be able to achieve the same (or better) results with less collateral damage. In the case of Russia, I think it's pretty clearly a mixture of incompetence and willful targeting of civilians.
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May 18, 2023 08:44
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Discord bandit was taking notes of classified information and asking pointed questions, as an IT janitor. https://twitter.com/SeamusHughes/status/1659018047200411648
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May 18, 2023 10:27
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Skanky Burns posted:So infested with Soviet spies then? I hope not! Heh
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May 18, 2023 11:02
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Lum_ posted:A lot of this was also that Germany manufactured about 70 varieties of tanks because every Nazi middle manager made their favorites to score points with their bosses, while the Allies made... three? two? Thus German production was divided in about 70 different ways and it turned out 6 Shermans or 8 T-34s can beat a Tiger no matter how well the Tiger performed in field tests. Yeah the German Industry was it's own worst enemy for not standardizing and using common parts/chassis/etc.
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May 18, 2023 11:27
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Something for y'all to dig into. https://harpers.org/archive/2023/06/why-are-we-in-ukraine/ E: additional fun facts: "Layne has also written for the libertarian Cato Institute, the RAND Corporation, The American Conservative magazine, and The National Interest magazine." Schwarz used to be the editor for The American Conservative. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 11:52 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 11:34
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KozmoNaut posted:Something for y'all to dig into. It's one of the most coherent Tankie pieces I've ever read, for sure. But it's all beside the point because it presumes that Russia's foreign policy supercedes that of former Eastern Bloc and Soviet states, which it does not. A key feature of sovereignty is the ability of a country to choose its own associations, and this article puts that aside in the name of apologizing for Russian aggression. I could go on, picking apart some of the points, but that's really the fatal flaw that undercuts any of these kinds of arguments attempting to pin the blame on NATO and the US.
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May 18, 2023 11:48
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KozmoNaut posted:Something for y'all to dig into. It is a shame that people keep getting paid reshuffling the same asinine talking points while pretending that Putin's Russia is a force of nature or a pagan deity that needs sacrifices to be calmed down.
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May 18, 2023 11:57
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Shattered Sword touches on it as well. Imperial Japan did not sound like a fun place. Here's another fun bit of WW2 Pacific Theater trivia: there was a quiet belief in parts of the Imperial Navy that the Yamato and its sister ships were a divine curse on Japan. The ships were, militarily, a net benefit to the Allies by the time of the late war due to their outrageous consumption of preciously limited fuel, steel, and other very scarce resources in Japan, and people in Japan did in fact figure this out before the war was over. So word started to get around in the enlisted ranks of the Imperial Navy that this was because the Yamato and its sisters had been built in defiance of the treaty's size and tonnage limits, that Japan broke these treaties to produce these giant ships that wound up being worse than useless in practice was said by some to be the gods' punishment for Japan's treachery.
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May 18, 2023 12:27
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You got a source on that?
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May 18, 2023 12:31
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the kuznetsov is a gift from baba yaga
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May 18, 2023 12:34
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FrozenVent posted:You got a source on that? Ian Toll's Pacific War trilogy was the first place I heard of it, IIRC, in the parts where it was talking about the mythologization of the war.
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May 18, 2023 12:34
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The part of me that loves big guns wishes we could have had a battleship duel between Yamato and Montana.
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May 18, 2023 12:52
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fatherboxx posted:It is a shame that people keep getting paid reshuffling the same asinine talking points while pretending that Putin's Russia is a force of nature or a pagan deity that needs sacrifices to be calmed down. Its weird and kinda racist with overtones of Russian/asian hordes BS, isn't it?
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May 18, 2023 13:06
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psydude posted:I've gotta imagine that most of this was a function of the technological limitations at the time. Modern weapons are precise enough that they should be able to achieve the same (or better) results with less collateral damage. In the case of Russia, I think it's pretty clearly a mixture of incompetence and willful targeting of civilians. I don't think most of the function was technology, and I would not call the US's deliberate burning of civilian areas and people "collateral." They were the target for many of these raids. The US's own military survey, one designed to say the USAF owns and air power is the future now and always, specifies that after initially targeting aircraft factories and other military targets, the US decided to engage in the largest night-bombing raids to date, using incendiary weapons to target the most densely populated parts of the city. quote:On 9 March 1945, a basic revision in the method of B-29 attack quote:Total civilian casualties in Japan, as a result of 9 months of air This wasn't collateral or missing the target, this was the US changing tactics and finding it highly effective. Among the report highlights are not only the loss of workers due to disease or death, but that homeless workers and starving workers are less likely to make it to work, and that civilians who flee a city to rural areas after their housing is targeted are no longer working for industry.
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May 18, 2023 13:14
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mlmp08 posted:I don't think most of the function was technology, and I would not call the US's deliberate burning of civilian areas and people "collateral." They were the target for many of these raids. The US's own military survey, one designed to say the USAF owns and air power is the future now and always, specifies that after initially targeting aircraft factories and other military targets, the US decided to engage in the largest night-bombing raids to date, using incendiary weapons to target the most densely populated parts of the city. I think we're talking about separate things here. I'm specifically talking about targeting industrial capacity, not deliberately terror bombing civilian populations to force them to capitulate. A bunch of other posts already covered this, so I'll refrain from rehashing it. psydude fucked around with this message at 13:34 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 13:31
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fatherboxx posted:It is a shame that people keep getting paid reshuffling the same asinine talking points while pretending that Putin's Russia is a force of nature or a pagan deity that needs sacrifices to be calmed down. I kind of stopped dead at "Why are we in Ukraine?" It's a bit like asking, "Why am I buying groceries on Europa?"
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May 18, 2023 13:45
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meatbag posted:I was referring to British ammunition handling practices, the three British battlecruisers sunk were own goals Touche.
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May 18, 2023 13:47
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A.o.D. posted:I kind of stopped dead at "Why are we in Ukraine?"  Is it controversial that the US has made a significant material investment in the war in Ukraine?
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May 18, 2023 13:48
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Yes, in a perfect example of horseshoe theory
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May 18, 2023 13:49
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