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NikkolasKing posted:But the point of a song is to make a lot of people feel a certain way. That's what I believe. The why and how of this is debated but when you make a piece of music, it's to have an impact on people. Who wants a lot of people to be enraged? Maybe not a particularly good person, I'd wager. This whole discussion started with anger not being useful or necessary so someone who promotes anger through their music is pretty...dubious, right? These are real! And you can put them into art. But if you are seeking art SOLELY to experience anger (either shown in the material or, more often imo, because you know it will irritate you) you are not acting wisely.
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May 16, 2023 19:57
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I cannot articulate why at this time but 'the point of music is to make someone feel a way so you must only write with the Positive Emotions' feels very sus Also were you never like... An angsty teenager. Or even just been around one. There are entire musical genres about anger
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May 16, 2023 20:03
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NikkolasKing posted:But the point of a song is to make a lot of people feel a certain way. That's what I believe. The why and how of this is debated but when you make a piece of music, it's to have an impact on people. Who wants a lot of people to be enraged? Maybe not a particularly good person, I'd wager. This whole discussion started with anger not being useful or necessary so someone who promotes anger through their music is pretty...dubious, right? Not necessarily anger is in the gap between what ought to be and what is. https://youtu.be/9XEnTxlBuGo Or https://youtu.be/beCDagbTF2U Are either of those dubious?
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May 16, 2023 20:07
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You gave a concession for protest music so I actually want to put protest music aside. I do not believe for a second that you have never been angry in your life, or dealt with a friend who was angry about something. Do you really think that the only possible effect of expressing anger is spreading it? Does that line up with your experiences? If it does then I'm sorry, but that's actually kind of scary. Your friend venting to you just makes you angry? You do not vent to your friends lest you spread anger? People like to feel understood and feel like we share even negative experiences. I leave death metal concerts feeling calmer than I have in months.
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May 16, 2023 20:14
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Not necessarily anger is in the gap between what ought to be and what is. I did acknowledge protest music is an exception. I myself love a good Irish Rebel song. But that's kind of where all this started. Isn't anger justified in the face of injustice? Isn't it necessary, even? Maybe "Which Side Are You On?" and "Come Out Ye Black n Tans" helped. I dunno. Killingyouguy! posted:You gave a concession for protest music so I actually want to put protest music aside. Well music is different from venting to a friend, right? The point of "venting" is to have someone who won't be sucked in by your crisis or problems. You definitely don't want the person you vent to to become as upset as you are. Angry music is the opposite, it's designed to suck everyone in so everyone shares in the feeling. As for me, I have a horrible temper which is why I look to music to help calm me down.
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May 16, 2023 20:40
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NikkolasKing posted:Angry music is the opposite, it's designed to suck everyone in so everyone shares in the feeling. Lmao I don't even have an argument other than 'no it isnt' dude For like, the duration of the song, it is companionship to your own anger, it is validating, you feel understood, it is cathartic. You sweat it out, you feel good after. If angry music left everyone feeling lousy it would never sell. If you've got a temper maybe join me in the pit sometime
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May 16, 2023 20:50
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Fitting for this thread that a mosh pit is consistently the closest I get to a religious experience
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May 16, 2023 20:53
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Killingyouguy! posted:Lmao I don't even have an argument other than 'no it isnt' dude
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May 16, 2023 21:03
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NikkolasKing posted:Isn't anger justified in the face of injustice? Isn't it necessary, even? Is it a choice? Maybe environmental or material conditions are determinative of our anger.
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May 16, 2023 21:10
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NikkolasKing posted:I said anger, not all emotion. Of course love, joy, these things can make splendid music. really? it seems enormous to me. i mean the obvious go-to is metal, but intense anger can be found in all kinds of music from all of the world, in everything from string quartets to opera to flamenco to rap. not just for purposes of "protest music", making art is intensely personal and a lot of it is people expressing something about their personal lives, not just something societal or political. all kinds of other negative emotions, like sadness and fear and confusion, can also be expressed through music. love and joy are absolutely not the only emotions that have an important role in music. or in any other art. NikkolasKing posted:Who wants a lot of people to be enraged? Maybe not a particularly good person, I'd wager. people who understand the catharsis of art, that's who. do you seriously think all of the people who work in art that make aggressive music that people seek out for that kind of energy are "not good people"? the gently caress i mean like, have you ever heard of a break-up song? a lot of them are very popular and there's a reason for that, and it's got nothing to do with protest music. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 21:25 on May 16, 2023 |
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May 16, 2023 21:18
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The trouble with debating the value of any emotion is that all emotions are 1) entirely contextual in nature, and 2) rather fuzzily delineated in the first place. The same phenomenological experience with the same consequences can be conceptualised very differently depending on who is evaluating it. "Anger" might be construed as "defiance" when I am disenfranchised, but as "insubordination" when I am part of the ruling class. It might be construed as "assertiveness" when a man does it, but "hysteria" when a women does it. I might consider my own anger to be an expression of self-respect tonight, but an expression of my own insecurity when looking back on the same experience tomorrow with the benefit of 8 hours sleep. All emotions are ambiguous and therefore need to be interpreted - whether "anger" has value depends entirely on the ends to which it is put. I can't speak to the contribution that "anger" might be able to make towards art, but the wide variety of emotions we could classify under the rubric of "anger" definitely have their place in human life.
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May 16, 2023 21:46
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Is it a choice?
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May 16, 2023 21:55
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Is it a choice? I think choice comes into play with action. Ancient myths of supreme control over our minds are dumb and totally wrong; I have no power to stop myself having sexual feelings or angry feelings but I can choose how to respond to those feelings. Earwicker posted:really? it seems enormous to me. i mean the obvious go-to is metal, but intense anger can be found in all kinds of music from all of the world, in everything from string quartets to opera to flamenco to rap. not just for purposes of "protest music", making art is intensely personal and a lot of it is people expressing something about their personal lives, not just something societal or political. all kinds of other negative emotions, like sadness and fear and confusion, can also be expressed through music. love and joy are absolutely not the only emotions that have an important role in music. or in any other art. Sadness and other negative emotions are not inherently destructive, though. A song that makes you sad can make you sad because of your feeling of loss, of caring about another person or thing. In a way, it's born of positive things like love and sympathy. Anger? Anger is anger at something and what do people wnt to do with the objects of their anger? Remove them, naturally enough. quote:people who understand the catharsis of art, that's who. do you seriously think all of the people who work in art that make aggressive music that people seek out for that kind of energy are "not good people"? the gently caress Just because people seek something out doesn't mean it's good for them. There are many breakup songs or songs about troubled relationships which are not in fact angry. Here are two songs I listened to a lot growing up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wADRRYNHhOA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYnpWEoGmE8 Overlooking obvious differences in musical quality, both songs are about jealousy. Now, is the song that encourages apology, acknowledging fault and trying to do better on the same level as the song which, because of its anger, has no time for any of that? You could say the latter song glorifies being a paranoid, possessive lover. That's what I saw in it as a kid, validation. But not all things should be validated. I think Lennon's song is much better because it's about reflection, growth, and bettering yourself. That seems a clearly more positive, desirable use for music.
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May 16, 2023 22:51
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There are lots of things that can be done with an emotion other than feel it. This is the basis of, for instance, cognitive behavioral therapy. The creative process for many involves the recollection, examination, and depiction of emotion; and the audience might then, for instance, recognize it and empathetically mirror it. It's complex and subtle. If there is some component of your thought that you have observed either to cause you suffering or to spur you to behavior you regret, then it may be worth trying to rise to the challenge of grasping that complexity and subtlety.
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May 16, 2023 22:54
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NikkolasKing posted:I think choice comes into play with action. Ancient myths of supreme control over our minds are dumb and totally wrong; I have no power to stop myself having sexual feelings or angry feelings but I can choose how to respond to those feelings. Before the pandemic I might have agreed with that. But I got to find out that (“I can choose how to respond”) is privilege. Add enough stress to oneself or to other folks or family and no, one stops being able to make that choice.
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May 16, 2023 23:02
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NikkolasKing posted:Just because people seek something out doesn't mean it's good for them. Heavy metal: It's Just Like Meth ™️
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May 16, 2023 23:17
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Before the pandemic I might have agreed with that. But I got to find out that (“I can choose how to respond”) is privilege. Add enough stress to oneself or to other folks or family and no, one stops being able to make that choice.
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May 16, 2023 23:45
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I just clarify that I'm not trying to suggest heavy metal makes you violent or whatever. That's stupid and easily disproven. Anger also is essential to good storytelling, generally. A great drama without any anger? Had to imagine. I suppose I just have a Romantic view of music in particular. Music, to me, is about healing and I can't imagine anger ever being part of the healing process for me. I just hope nobody is taking my random musings as value judgments or condemnations.
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May 17, 2023 00:07
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NikkolasKing posted:Sadness and other negative emotions are not inherently destructive, though. A song that makes you sad can make you sad because of your feeling of loss, of caring about another person or thing. In a way, it's born of positive things like love and sympathy. Anger? Anger is anger at something and what do people wnt to do with the objects of their anger? Remove them, naturally enough. i think very honestly this is saying something about yourself that you maybe need to work on. i and, i'm pretty sure a lot of other people, are capable of feeling anger at a person, organization, concept etc. without wanting to remove it. quite often what it means is wanting to improve it. or maybe just walk away from it. or to grow on your own such that you can move past it. destruction is absolutely not the one and only direction anger can go in, and the fact that you seem to think it's some sort of "natural" conclusion is honestly a bit troubling. NikkolasKing posted:I suppose I just have a Romantic view of music in particular. Music, to me, is about healing and I can't imagine anger ever being part of the healing process for me. this doesn't really make much sense considering how much anger there is Romantic music. like Chopin's prelude no. 20? that poo poo has some anger in it. a lot of Rachmaninoff's work is angry as hell Earwicker fucked around with this message at 00:16 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 00:14
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Nessus posted:So the capacity exists, but under great stress may fail? It may become intolerable. Think like : “I can’t get what I need for my children” levels of stress. It explodes.
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May 17, 2023 00:37
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It may become intolerable. Think like : “I can’t get what I need for my children” levels of stress. I don't have much of an input there, beyond that one of the big things I think about is: Under stress, you tend to fall back on your training. What do you train? A lot of people train anger. Not in the sense of loving hard rock or listening to angry music, but in the sense of cultivating an angry state of mind. Some of the recent tragedies appear to have had a lot of that underlying it; you train yourself to be ever-alert, and to keep your weapon handy, and maybe before long you start looking for reasons to use it.
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May 17, 2023 01:13
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Nessus posted:Right, and I want to be clear that I'm asking these things in the frame of like, philosophical/theological inquiry, and that if I say something along the lines of 'an element of choice is always present' this is intended as a position rather than an implicit condemnation of people in desperate circumstances. There is a gap between folks who agree with that element of choice and folks stressed enough to no longer consider that moral stance real, and who instead are angry. I find myself thinking of this: “The whole tragedy and the whole promise of modern life is in the difference between these hopes. It is a tragic difference inasfar as it represents modern man's loss of confidence in moral forces. It is a helpful one inasfar as it recognises the brutalities of the conflict of power as basic to the collective history of mankind. If there are excesses and extravagances in its amoralism and unqualified determinism, they may be regarded as the poison which the amoral mechanism of a technological civilisation generates. But they must also be appreciated as the antidote which is needed for the toxin of the hypocrisies by which modern society hides its brutalities. An industrial mechanism, which moves by instinct and defies the canons of reason and conscience, makes determinists of those who suffer most from its cruelties. A culture which tries to hide the cruelties by moral pretensions that do not change the facts makes cynics of those who know the facts. “ - Moral Man and Immoral Society
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May 17, 2023 02:00
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That's a cool quote, who's it from? That said, anger considerably predates the modern world. Do you think there is a qualitative difference between the sort of anger described or outlined in ancient accounts and the sort of anger that occurs in modernity?
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May 17, 2023 02:06
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Niebuhr, it’s Moral Man and Immoral Society. What everybody knows about the book is that it’s one of the foundational texts of the Civil Rights Movement. I just recently revisited it… It is very much more radical than it’s place in cultural canon suggests. Full text : http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-2/Re...0Study%20in.pdf Also looks like Dynamics of Faith is up on the same site: https://www.religion-online.org/book/dynamics-of-faith/
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May 17, 2023 02:14
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Angry Aggressive music is extremely useful; without it I would lift a significantly lower quantity of heavy circles, and that I simply cannot abide.
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May 17, 2023 02:57
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NikkolasKing posted:I just clarify that I'm not trying to suggest heavy metal makes you violent or whatever. That's stupid and easily disproven. Anger also is essential to good storytelling, generally. A great drama without any anger? Had to imagine. Anger can absolutely be a part of a healing process. It's not something you're supposed to marinate in forever, but a part of healing can sometimes be acknowledging what happened to you was wrong, and allowing yourself to feel anger about it.
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May 17, 2023 03:24
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I don't really want to argue about anger on the interwebs (as that is one of my anger triggers  ), except to say that the natural avenue of anger isn't to "remove the object" of the anger, it's to tell you something is off. Physiologically, anger can lead not only to fight, but also to flight, fawn and fornicate. Anger is an amazing transformative force, if you can actually shut down the most destructive expressions of it and act on what it's telling you. I'm not saying I'm very good at that, though. Understanding my own angers and what they're a symptom of, is a lifelong process. Gaius Marius posted:The Bible is full of weird poo poo, it also didn't have textual basis for centuries until it was put down into text. I certainly don't consider it true, but disregarding it for such reasons is fallacious. Earwicker posted:i can understand that why to a mainstream christian, only smith's additions seem like "weird poo poo", but you might consider that to many non-christians, all of it looks like weird poo poo, and smith's additions aren't really any weirder than the idea of transubstantiation Touché! I fall into presentism fallacy a lot, simply because I have no idea what actually happened in people's daily lives 2000 year ago. Thanks for checking me. E: though I am a practicing norse heathen from Denmark, christianity -always- looked very weird to me. I guess I'm just more spiritually sympathetic to christianity (perhaps because it's our state church and we always catch a lot of passive protestantism) than to mormonism. Killingyouguy! posted:Fitting for this thread that a mosh pit is consistently the closest I get to a religious experience Quiet sitting is a relatively modern take on religion. Old believer shaker cults, warrior buddhist monks, gnostic orgies, mushroom revelations - religion was meant to be felt, if you ask me.
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May 17, 2023 07:06
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NikkolasKing posted:Well look at it this way. I've recently been studying theories of evolution and natural selection. I imagine most here agree with those theories? Anger is such a universal trait that it must be useful for helping humans to continue to exist and flourish. Angry, as the man said, gets poo poo done. Even on a Biblical basis it's hard to argue against, righteous anger plays a large part in several parables. Not to mention things like Jesus chasing the money lenders from the temple with a whip. NikkolasKing posted:I suppose I just have a Romantic view of music in particular. Music, to me, is about healing and I can't imagine anger ever being part of the healing process for me. It absolutely is. Anger is part of grief, natural as the sun coming up every morning and something everyone will deal with at some point in their lives. It's an emotional reaction, not necessarily a logical one, but sometimes catharsis is needed to find peace. Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 09:34 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 09:22
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Earwicker posted:this doesn't really make much sense considering how much anger there is Romantic music. like Chopin's prelude no. 20? that poo poo has some anger in it. a lot of Rachmaninoff's work is angry as hell Romantic as in the philosophical movement, specifically German Romanticism. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hist-westphilmusic-since-1800/ https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2008/VH_751/wacknrdr.html quote:Ask the virtuoso why he is so heartily gay upon his lyre. "Is not," he will answer, "all of life a beautiful dream? a lovely soap-bubble? My musical piece is the same." I don't quite agree with their insistence on purely instrumental music - lyrics are very important to me - but music as access to some transcendental realm? I can believe that as surely as I believe in anything. And when we want to transform ourselves, we want to become better than who we are. Nobody's ideal self or ideal afterlife is one of anger, at least I've certainly never heard of that.
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May 17, 2023 15:28
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NikkolasKing posted:I said anger, not all emotion. Of course love, joy, these things can make splendid music. Toccata and Fugue is not the work of a becalmed mind
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May 17, 2023 15:57
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Tias posted:I don't really want to argue about anger on the interwebs (as that is one of my anger triggers this is exactly what i was trying to say, much better than i was saying it. thank you. NikkolasKing posted:Nobody's ideal self or ideal afterlife is one of anger, at least I've certainly never heard of that. my "ideal self" includes all of the emotions, it includes anger. not just anger, of course, but to me it's just as valuable as any other emotion, and i wouldn't want to live in a world without it.
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May 17, 2023 16:18
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when i say that anger in art can be used for healing i am talking about pieces like this. this is the kind of thing where i can feel the level of pain and anger the artist is putting into the work and it connects with my own in a way that leaves me permanently changed. it's one of the most powerful healing pieces for me that there is, for others it's probably something different. in spite of the amount of hurt in this piece i also find it incredibly beautiful at the same time, because of that power to heal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ZweG__q-w
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May 17, 2023 16:26
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some examples of anger in music (and this is only drawing from the western art canon): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3KkSsj75sM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NACeUqS2D4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL6mtix9Xbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvZqNQ71l0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWE0pVQPXJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s0Mp7LFI-k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOQzo4QuY8U also wtf is christ doing throwing chairs and turning over tables in the temple, chasing out the moneylenders -- is he not (righteously) angry?
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May 18, 2023 03:44
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sinnesloeschen posted:also wtf is christ doing throwing chairs and turning over tables in the temple, chasing out the moneylenders -- is he not (righteously) angry? I'm not a Christian but "anger is based, actually" is, I'm pretty sure, a very un-Christian message. Also would Jesus doing that fall under the realm of "Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord?" Many a Christian encountered far, far greater evil than that and greeted it with equanimity. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 04:04 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 03:58
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm not a Christian but "anger is based, actually" is, I'm pretty sure, a very un-Christian message. well tbf there's... a bit of distance between the raging alcoholic dad semitic war god of ezekiel's preaching days and the jesus movement, and i admit my read of jesus is v much along the lines of "incredibly pissed off rabbi who upset the entrenched political systems vis-a-vis table throwing and by serving the poor and lifting the marginalized" rather than the beatific (lol) peace-christ that a lot of christians read him to be (i got no beef with ppl who follow jesus and arent self-righteous dicks about it) i do think jesus was really the only guy that could have upset the structure of post-second temple judean collaboration with the roman government, kinda like how "only nixon could go to china" eta: please also understand that i am literally, legitimately, dumb as poo poo
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May 18, 2023 04:36
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This is where I get especially wary. When people bring up Jesus in the Temple, or this quote from Chrysostom I see come up from time to time (naturally, out of context), it always seems to reflect less a desire to strike a blow for truth and justice and more to just cause some damage, or even hurt somebody, with "righteous" anger and divine endorsement as the excuse. Literally anybody can do that for any reason. Also, for what it's worth, none of the Gospels describe Jesus' emotions when he chases out the moneychangers. He just shows up and gets down to business. So I think it should be read more as him acting dispassionately and prophetically, not out of rage. Even references to God's "wrath" in the OT aren't generally taken literally by the Orthodox Church, because anger is a passion--or if you will, a survival mechanism--and of course it can't sway someone who's all-powerful.
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May 18, 2023 04:51
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yea just dispassionately flipping those tables over
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May 18, 2023 05:02
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an... "unemotional jesus christ" take was not one i was expecting, and if im completely honest i simply dont think im studied enough to understand that particular perspective eta: same with god fuckin carving the poo poo out of settled peoples in order to get the israelites to judea; i always pictured that part of the torah like the nuclear fire scene from terminator 2
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May 18, 2023 05:04
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Actually, as I sort through my YouTube music favorites, I had a thought. I've always felt a certain affinity with Shiva, the Hindu deity. Specifically depictions of him in his yogic pose, a being of stillness amidst the chaos of life. I find it inspirational. Of course, Christianity is deplete with images of Jesus or Mary, while in not in meditative poses, still looking serene and blissful. But in Hinduism, a lot of gods have multiple aspects. Shiva is also the Destroyer, and various goddess can be depicted violently or fearsomely. I'm just wondering if there's any notable Christian imagery of fearsomeness? It's probably out there.
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May 18, 2023 06:31
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Earwicker posted:yea just dispassionately flipping those tables over sinnesloeschen posted:an... "unemotional jesus christ" take was not one i was expecting, and if im completely honest i simply dont think im studied enough to understand that particular perspective NikkolasKing posted:I'm just wondering if there's any notable Christian imagery of fearsomeness? It's probably out there.  And of course, just about any icon of the Final Judgment.
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May 18, 2023 06:44
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