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people arent corporations they dont have profit motives you are utilizing the deranged feral vernacular of capitalism to describe something and astonished that people are interpreting it as a tacit endorsement of capitalism bucky surely you can see why they might think that even if they are wrong
Jezza of OZPOS fucked around with this message at 13:38 on May 17, 2023 |
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May 17, 2023 13:36
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Jezza of OZPOS posted:people arent corporations they dont have profit motives you are utilizing the deranged feral vernacular of capitalism to describe something and astonished that people are interpreting it as a tacit endorsement of capitalism bucky surely you can see why they might think that even if they are wrong People were being weird before that phrase Jezza Also of course people can have a profit motive, when they do something for money, I don’t see how that’s controversial. Basing the SES on “pay”, however you want to describe that, is a bad idea that will make it worse at its job.
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May 17, 2023 13:50
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Basing the SES on “pay”, however you want to describe that, is a bad idea that will make it worse at its job. Ah, the American college football logic.
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May 17, 2023 14:11
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Nothing is wrong with me (in this convo at least), you are making a suggestion which would severely disrupt a service that provides a benefit to our community, and I think you should provide some more details about exactly what that would look like. If you've got no actual model, then we don't really have much to discuss. Thanks for stating your belief. In this particular case, I believe it's misguided, and would deliver a worse result for society in time of disaster. No, actually something is, you don't actually seem to have any reading comprehension at all and are busy stuffing words into my mouth and fundamentally misunderstand the difference between "this should only be for profit" and "we should compensate those who volunteer". I think if you are an SES volunteer, there should be legislative protection so that it is not a financial loss for that volunteering. There's my legislation proposal, legislate that. I'm not going to write the wording because I don't draft legislation. I'm not going to write a powerpoint presentation about this because I have actual other things to do. You know what else I think? We should raise the youth allowance payment, I'm also not going to write legislation or create a slide deck about this either. I volunteer 2 hours supervising weights for young people and a variable amount usually 0.5-1.5 hours running youth a self improvement program each week, I have to weigh that up with being able to use that time to make money and then stare at my finances and wonder if I can afford to keep volunteering. I want to do more that is useful to my community but I can not loving afford to. It'd be nice if there were some thing that helped my finances in some way for volunteering so I don't have to make the choice between doing things I want to do that help people and having somewhere to loving live. You want more legislation ideas? Instead of buying tanks we put money into community organisation funds that give people who do things in communities a small financial benefit for doing so. Again, I'm not drafting legislation, I don't know how and don't imagine that I can wikipedia myself into having that skill in 30 minutes.
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May 17, 2023 14:11
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Can we go back to talking about qanon?
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May 17, 2023 14:27
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I wish I was as sure about arguing my opinions as Bucky is
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May 17, 2023 14:35
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Splode posted:I would much rather have dedicated, trained and well compensated professionals working in emergency services than a bunch of volunteers than a bunch of amateurs. Problem is that a lot of emergency work needs professional emergency specialists (suitably paid with permanent contracts) and also really need access to subject matter experts or simply lots of labor used very infrequently. You sort of allude to it in recognizing rural fire volunteers. For instance, a lot of void rescues (whether it be a dog down a disused shaft or someone stuck in a well) in Australia are performed by mine industry trained and equipped mines rescue teams. The kids in Thailand were rescued by amateur cave divers that are the best in the business over and above the trained military divers that just don't have reason to train deep cave navigation and movement. Explosives handling, chemicals, vulnerable persons (incident in Arnhem Land, much better if all the people in attendance are extensively trained and engaged in UN rights of protected peoples, etc), mass casualty (you could make it a requirement of being employed in the medical field but it would make it even harder to attract people to medicine). etc. The other element is volunteering is often a self levelling provision of service. For instance, an injured wedge tailed eagle is not the bread and butter for a police officer or even most vets but we all agree it's better it is better it is rescued rather than destroyed. At the same time, setting up offices and facilities with coverage for leave, rotations, isolated posting allowances along with provided housing, etc to ensure sufficient trained compliment to cover all of Australia's network where Wedgies have been known to get hit by traffic is a multi-hundred million dollar a year org structure that even just thinking about will cost millions to scope and decide costs too much. Leave it to volunteer orgs to decide what is important enough to take time out of people's day without the overhead of constantly assessing and measuring bang for buck time spent of peoples time. Volunteer orgs already struggle with misappropriation and attracting people with different agendas and if you paid me to do volunteer work of my choosing instead of turning up to work, you can bet your bottom dollar I will really, REALLY care about weightlifting and teaching young'uns about it like I have never before in my life. It's why the army reserves have any recruits at all!
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May 17, 2023 14:45
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Problem is that a lot of emergency work needs professional emergency specialists (suitably paid with permanent contracts) and also really need access to subject matter experts or simply lots of labor used very infrequently. You sort of allude to it in recognizing rural fire volunteers. I'm confused, hooman was the one responding about how they volunteer about weightlifting. Is this like an ausgoon pet project because it's weird how Electric Wrigglies also has exactly the same volunteer thing???
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May 17, 2023 21:47
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hooman posted:…I have to weigh that up with being able to use that time to make money and then stare at my finances… You just keep on pushing that capitalist agenda hooman. You sicken me.
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May 17, 2023 23:15
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Recoome posted:I'm confused, hooman was the one responding about how they volunteer about weightlifting. Is this like an ausgoon pet project because it's weird how Electric Wrigglies also has exactly the same volunteer thing??? I thought he was just making reference to hoomans personal example to expand on his point.
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May 17, 2023 23:53
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starkebn posted:I wish I was as sure about arguing my opinions as Bucky is It’s easy. 1. Share an idea in an overly complicated format 2. Dismiss anything that isn’t in outright agreement with your idea 3. Demand others present a better idea than yours (there isn’t), their failure to do so proves your original idea
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May 17, 2023 23:55
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Oh I forgot the final step. 4. Under no circumstances do you Google the phrase Dunning-Kruger. If you do, assume it applies to everyone else.
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May 17, 2023 23:57
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Jezza of OZPOS posted:people arent corporations they dont have profit motives Speak for yourself mate!
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May 18, 2023 00:08
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I'm a volunteer firefighter. There is a very strong longstanding culture of protecting volunteerism and a resistance to remuneration, largely from a generation which was able to buy a portfolio of 5 bedroom homes on a single wage from the turnip farm. I'm getting hosed by a mortgage though, It'd be great if they paid us when I have to miss work because I've spent 10 hours overnight at a house fire.
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May 18, 2023 00:15
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Electric Wrigglies posted:Problem is that a lot of emergency work needs professional emergency specialists (suitably paid with permanent contracts) and also really need access to subject matter experts or simply lots of labor used very infrequently. You sort of allude to it in recognizing rural fire volunteers. I had a bad experience with surf lifesavers that made me wish that they were pros, not moonlighting boomers. I think it's an easy candidate for professionalisation given the hours are very regular. But I concede that there are many other times you need a huge amount of labour at little notice for many currently volunteer orgs - I like hooman's suggestion that they're paid though. Something like a reserve army* model where they're paid while they're working, and have legal protections for their normal jobs, seems like a good compromise to me. *I don't know the details of how the army reserve works in Australia, but at a high level army reserve soldiers are paid when they go to war and should be paid when they're training IMO
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May 18, 2023 00:48
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hambeet posted:You just keep on pushing that capitalist agenda hooman. I'm a capitalist monster, I know... I live in shame. Posted from my iphone in Davos, Switzerland.
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May 18, 2023 01:57
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hambeet posted:I thought he was just making reference to hoomans personal example to expand on his point. Yeah I read it that way as well. I'm not arguing that volunteering should be paid in line with professionals who do that work. I also think it is worth drawing a line between socially necessary volunteering (where you are called up by the government to do something) and individual volunteering (you choose to dedicate your time to the community). I think the socially necessary should be at government discretion, based on a call up model and (similar to something like jury duty, except for you choosing to be a member of that volunteer force) ensure that people who do that civic service are not financially disadvantaged (whether businesses keep paying you at your standard rate while you do it, or the government pays you directly what you would have made otherwise for hours you missed, I'm not really concerned). Seperately to that, people who volunteer to deliver food to old people, or spend time with them. People who run sports teams, scouts guides etc, it would be good if there were something (from a fund, or from council funding) to support the hours those people spend. This isn't replacing their work, as it is out of business hours but some minimal hourly remuneration (perhaps low enough that it's not incentivising bad actors, because they're not there for the money) but just something, hell even to cover bits and pieces we buy out of our own money so these things can happen. Maybe make it tax free and like 2/3 of minimum wage or something if you are worried about perverse incentives... I am not sure and you probably need someone smarter than me and better at understanding this stuff to balance it and work out what kind of rate would produce good outcomes. Like I can tutor private school kids for $110/hr and I keep turning down students because I don't have enough time, and... when interest rates are what they, and cost of living is what it is, housing costs what it costs... that's a hard decision to keep making.
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May 18, 2023 02:14
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Splode posted:I had a bad experience with surf lifesavers that made me wish that they were pros, not moonlighting boomers. I think it's an easy candidate for professionalisation given the hours are very regular. A point in favour of this is that some companies are already doing this to some extent. For eg Woolworths provides 2 weeks paid emergency services leave per year for people who are in the SES or volunteer firefighters or whatnot; and they also do 2 weeks per year paid defence force leave for reserves (in this case because reservists are paid for attending training and whatnot Woolies will only pay the difference between their regular wage and whatever they get paid for attending training).
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May 18, 2023 05:03
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Of all the debates that don't matter, this one doesn't matter the least. No one is asking for this and nothing is going to happen anyway and we're not worse off because of it. I'm not making any crazy detailed bucky plan, I was responding to Skidoo 23's vision of a "Civil Corps to replace volunteer firefighting and SES" and literally all I said was "don't mess with it", and "it's nuanced". We're going to keep talking past each other, because you really want to "insert commerce" into something I really want to keep commerce out of. That's it. We can have different views on that, but I'm not the radical here. You guys are the ones proposing an overhaul. I'll support your marxist picket-line or whatever in every other instance. In this instance I won't, for both practical and spiritual reasons. Practically, because I think it will actually disrupt the SES's ability to deliver the level of service it currently does, and spiritually, because I think commerce permeates too much of our lives and we should not be so quick to discard the few areas where it hasn't. People wanting to help each other for "not money" is a good impulse and we should protect it. If this is the issue: hooman posted:I think if you are an SES volunteer, there should be legislative protection so that it is not a financial loss for that volunteering. Then Bucky Fullminster posted:that part we can fix, sure. Put workplace protections in to ensure people don't suffer penalties. Make a pool that all businesses have to pay into or something so that when the time comes we can make sure everyone's all good. e - Like what Bude says Woolies does or something. I do think there is a distinction between that, and: hooman posted:"people should not perform necessary labour uncompensated" hooman posted:Pay people for work Bucky. Because by doing that you are fundamentally altering the nature of an important service, rather than simply addressing the problem you first identified. It's like fixing a mouse problem by bombing a house. It does address that problem, sure, but I don't think it's the only or the best way to do it. So.. we cool? hooman posted:I want to do more that is useful to my community but I can not loving afford to. It'd be nice if there were some thing that helped my finances in some way for volunteering so I don't have to make the choice between doing things I want to do that help people and having somewhere to loving live. Sure, and I fully support this kind of a Utopia as well. I think there are better ways to get there than saying we shouldn't have a volunteer emergency service. Let's make things more available and affordable and look towards guaranteeing food and shelter, for instance. quote:You want more legislation ideas? Yes. How about kitchen gardens in every school? Libraries open 24/7 And a communal outdoor fireplace in every suburb. For 190,000 years of human history we've gathered by fires under the stars, and that's just been completely ripped away and I think we're worse for it and I don't remember there ever being a referendum on that. Bucky Fullminster fucked around with this message at 05:51 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 05:22
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hooman posted:<pay people for volunteering> As a member of a volunteer committee, I have significant legal protections from the consequences of my actions, provided they are made in good faith. This goes away if I get paid.
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May 18, 2023 05:43
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 what the gently caress, did they get an American trainer in or something?
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May 18, 2023 06:40
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Autisanal Cheese posted:
Clearly not, because they didn't shoot her (some others) and a random dog
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May 18, 2023 06:55
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NPR Journalizard posted:As a member of a volunteer committee, I have significant legal protections from the consequences of my actions, provided they are made in good faith. This goes away if I get paid. Yeah see this is why I want volunteers paid.
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May 18, 2023 07:40
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Bucky Fullminster posted:Put workplace protections in to ensure people don't suffer penalties. Make a pool that all businesses have to pay into or something so that when the time comes we can make sure everyone's all good. e - Like what Bude says Woolies does or something. Oh my god dude. People getting paid by their business or getting paid by the government for volutneering for the SES is literally ensuring people are paid for their work. They are the same thing. They are indistinguishable except apparently to you. I am not trying to "insert" commerce into this, commerce already exists in this. You get that right? You know that under a capitalist system we are trapped within the bounds of money. The strain on people's lives due to cost of living pressures is growing and the time we have free to volunteer for this stuff is vanishing rapidly. At some point we run out and these services that rely on volunteerism collapse because we're all driven into the ground by ever increasing profits. Do you not understand that this is trying to protect the volunteering impulse? That at the moment there is a financial cost to us for helping people not for money that we are running out of leeway to afford?
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May 18, 2023 07:48
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Splode posted:Yeah see this is why I want volunteers paid. tbh im happy to get money for what I do, but im just some average joe who found himself in a position where I am responsible for a significant (to me) amount money in grants from the government. How would this situation be handled? Im already thinking about whether or not its worth it to do what i do, any additional burdens mean improbably just going to stop.
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May 18, 2023 08:03
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Autisanal Cheese posted:
Police are overflowing with people who would jump at the chance of hurting someone.
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May 18, 2023 08:18
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Bucky Fullminster posted:How about kitchen gardens in every school? You've got my vote.
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May 18, 2023 09:34
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hooman posted:Oh my god dude. People getting paid by their business or getting paid by the government for volutneering for the SES is literally ensuring people are paid for their work. They are the same thing. They are indistinguishable except apparently to you. If what I suggested there is indistinguishable from what you're asking for / proposing, then what on earth are you so lovely about? I do see a distinction between making sure some people don't get screwed and and making it so everyone gets paid, yeah, and think it's pretty obvious, but if we disagree on the semantics and it doesn't affect the outcome then who cares? Like this pub'd be a lot cooler if y'all could just ease up on the hostility occasionally. Senor Tron posted:You've got my vote. nice one How do we feel about : Left turn on red as standard unless otherwise signposted More crossovers between schools and retirement homes Schools provide lunch (the thought of millions of parents around the country packing their poo poo every day instead of just doing it centrally kills me) An action sports park (like a big gently caress-off skate park for all abilities, vert ramp, big air, etc) next to Blacktown international sports park in western sydney parklands
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May 18, 2023 14:45
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Bucky Fullminster posted:
This causes a big hazard to pedestrians and cyclists as the drivers are more occupied paying attention to possible oncoming traffic coming from the right and don't notice pedestrians/cyclists to their left. Especially in stupidly big vehicles like Ford Raptors and Dodge Rams.
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May 18, 2023 14:51
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Electric Wrigglies posted:I am hesitant to ask, what the gently caress is a Qanan anyway? They're literally a doomsday cult, but for the Trump Administration. Like any cult, it's all cryptic signs known only to the true believers, wild portents, the dead rising and visiting Dealey Plaza, the devil being sent to hell for her emails and an eternal paradise as the world is reshaped in the image of Donald Trump. Not even exaggerating.
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May 18, 2023 14:54
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May 18, 2023 14:59
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alright nice, never mind then, we're moving towards active transport anyway, motorists can wait I guess. I feel like there are definitely times when you could do it more, and we should keep it moving if we can, and I don't like going off one stranger's tweet about one study, but whatever who cares, get on a bike losers we're going cycling
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May 18, 2023 15:46
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Bucky Fullminster posted:alright nice, never mind then, we're moving towards active transport anyway, motorists can wait I guess. I feel like there are definitely times when you could do it more, and we should keep it moving if we can, and I don't like going off one stranger's tweet about one study, but whatever who cares, get on a bike losers we're going cycling There must have been a bunch of incidents in America recently as I have seen the topic pop up a lot over the past few weeks, that tweet was just the first one I found as I was phoneposting on the couch.
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May 18, 2023 15:53
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GoldStandardConure posted:This causes a big hazard to pedestrians and cyclists as the drivers are more occupied paying attention to possible oncoming traffic coming from the right and don't notice pedestrians/cyclists to their left. Especially in stupidly big vehicles like Ford Raptors and Dodge Rams. Cyclists should be waiting at the lights with everyone else though. Good chat.
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May 19, 2023 01:33
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hambeet posted:Cyclists should be waiting at the lights with everyone else though. Agreed, and ban those electric scooters from the footpath. Bloody dangerous with those maniacs riding them around the CBD.
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May 19, 2023 01:55
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hambeet posted:Cyclists should be waiting at the lights with everyone else though. Yes, but a cyclist can wait to go straight from the left lane and would be run over by the truck that is looking right while turning left.
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May 19, 2023 04:02
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Recoome posted:Agreed, and ban those electric scooters from the footpath. Bloody dangerous with those maniacs riding them around the CBD. The other week I was driving along and I saw a teenager zipping along at top speed with no helmet on a busy 4 lane road, went straight through a red light and then up the wrong side of the road for a while. Come to think about it I see cyclists on the wrong side of the road quite often.
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May 19, 2023 04:13
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Slip lanes solve the left on red pretty well, you just need a bit of space for them. (Also they're not in city skylines, where right on red gets the traffic flowing better / serves a similar purpose.)
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May 19, 2023 04:30
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I think it just shits me when one lane can turn right ACROSS oncoming traffic with a blank light, while another lane has to sit there waiting to turn left WITH the oncoming traffic, across the same two pedestrian paths. Also cyclists are too cool for “road rules”, come on
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May 19, 2023 05:06
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they've literally explained why, the other pedestrian crossing is in your field of view when you're looking at oncoming traffic to see if it's safe to turn
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May 19, 2023 06:43
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