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So I'm going to agree with everyone else saying the boss of Chapter 3 is absolutely absurd. I was running an Old King's Court (Tempest, Vanguard, Intermezzo - my one big mistake - and Seraph) with a really quite good success ratio who'd schooled the entire rest of the run, were all maximum affinity with each other, utterly schooled the Exemplar with ease, and had excellent trinket loadouts... ...and I still got utterly obliterated by Limerance without even being able to designate a specific tank, because the dodge tokens added to each eye with every single turn, plus the difficulty of hitting the back ranks with enough damage, made it functionally impossible to have even a single rank spared the glare. It really doesn't feel good having burned hours on this only to reach a boss I don't feel like I had any chance to beat - even though I chopped through most of its health, I just could not catch up. Even in phase 1 I was frantically trying to kill as many of the drat things as quickly as I could - to manage who was seen, if nothing else - and it just did not work, it was impossible to keep pace with the rate of them accumulating stages and placing Seen tokens again. Honestly, while I'm not pretending to be good at this game, losing to the final boss of a chapter, after having carefully worked up an entire party to be absolute facerollers for the entire rest of the run and methodically gotten them all to 20 affinity with each other, feels so unbelievably bad. Makes me feel like I just totally wasted my last few hours. Also, I've basically unlocked everything short of the character signature inn items and a few other odds and ends, because I've been smashing my head into this game for way too long. And yet it doesn't feel like I even could have done anything differently other than "choose a different party, loser." I dunno, maybe I'm just salty or not cut out for the game. Frustrating. Sorry to bitch, just extremely frustrated right now. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 09:56 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 09:34
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Someone posted upthread that getting Cowardice on your frontliners was a death sentence and I've come here to confirm that yes, you can save yourself a ton of time and press escape and click abandon run if that happens to you. (I've tried to power through it twice, won't do it again)
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May 18, 2023 10:00
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Also, honestly, I kinda agree that the big pain here is that once you - after great struggle - purge the chapter 3 boss, I can't see chapter 4 or chapter 5 adding much of anything, and if you're as bad at this game as I am you'll probably have already unlocked basically everything. I'm surprised that the mountain never gets any elaboration, either - an entirely new biome and battle background, and it's basically just hype building for the puzzle boss.
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May 18, 2023 10:02
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Jetrauben posted:So I'm going to agree with everyone else saying the boss of Chapter 3 is absolutely absurd. I was running an Old King's Court (Tempest, Vanguard, Intermezzo - my one big mistake - and Seraph) with a really quite good success ratio who'd schooled the entire rest of the run, were all maximum affinity with each other, utterly schooled the Exemplar with ease, and had excellent trinket loadouts... The big problem is that the eyes start cheating after a while. They skip their second form and jump straight from first to third. And since they're so fast, this typically means that you kill an eye, it respawns, gets a turn before any of your characters, and immediately jumps to third form. So you just get forced straight into the next phase without a chance to hold off. When I actually beat it, here's what I did: abuse the fact that that one inn item that gives +4 speed can stack on one person multiple times. Hoard them throughout the run. Split my hoard between two attacking characters(Highwayman and Runaway in my case) and pump them both up to like 30 speed so that they're absolutely guaranteed to beat the eyes, and have them attack to make sure that I can keep the first phase going as long as is necessary. Then I had a Man-at-arms use defender to pick up all the sight tokens before letting the last phase start. Once you're in the second phase with all of the tokens on your tank, it's simple: they buff up their defence as hard as possible to survive as long as possible while you kill it. It applies a stacking -healing debuff to the target, but I discovered something that apparently sidesteps that: Plague Doctor's Indiscriminate Science was still healing at -200% healing received. I think for that ability the debuff only applies to the base heal, which is tiny compared to the bonus heal from tokens. That let me keep my tank up long enough to kill it.
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May 18, 2023 10:07
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cock hero flux posted:The big problem is that the eyes start cheating after a while. They skip their second form and jump straight from first to third. And since they're so fast, this typically means that you kill an eye, it respawns, gets a turn before any of your characters, and immediately jumps to third form. So you just get forced straight into the next phase without a chance to hold off. God that sounds absolutely miserable. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the insightful suggestions and I might try them, but I absolutely need them to fix this boss so it doesn't feel this immensely bad. My party literally could have killed the drat thing in very little time if not for the fact that it hit ALL of them, because my Leper was fairly dependably putting out 20-40+ damage per swing, and it didn't matter.  And because every single eye immediately accumulated dodge tokens and my party was built to do the most damage to the front 1-3 ranks it doesn't feel like there was much of anything I could do. How even do you stack seen tokens on one person when taunt doesn't work on the eyes? Is Defender really the ONLY thing that works? Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 10:15 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 10:12
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Jetrauben posted:How even do you stack seen tokens on one person when taunt doesn't work on the eyes? Is Defender really the ONLY thing that works? By moving the Hero who you want to get the tokens. Want them on your Rank 1 MAA? Move him to rank 2, kill the corresponding Eye, wait for it to mark him, move to rank 3, kill the corresponding eye, etc. What's that, you got the General Trophy that gives permanent Immobilize? Well, sucks to be you I guess. Love, the Devs PS The Act III phase 1 is made immensely easier by MAA's Bellow and PD's Aluminium Rain.
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May 18, 2023 10:19
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Jetrauben posted:And because every single eye immediately accumulated dodge tokens and my party was built to do the most damage to the front 1-3 ranks it doesn't feel like there was much of anything I could do. How even do you stack seen tokens on one person when taunt doesn't work on the eyes? Is Defender really the ONLY thing that works? You can move someone rank by rank while killing the eyes, in theory. In practice though it's gonna be miserable and it's best to just use Guard tokens. I agree that Act 3 boss is bullshit and they need to do something about it, though. It's too uncompromising and unadaptable while the other bosses give you more of a chance to learn their gimmicks while fighting them; Act 3 just pulls a gotcha on you in phase 2 and then you're just hosed. It's the one Act boss I'd really call just flat out badly designed.
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May 18, 2023 10:23
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Warden posted:By moving the Hero who you want to get the tokens. Want them on your Rank 1 MAA? Move him to rank 2, kill the corresponding Eye, wait for it to mark him, move to rank 3, kill the corresponding eye, etc. This would seem dependent upon the eyes not all going in sequence though I guess my party was just too low speed, because it was basically An Eye, Jester, All the Other Eyes, the Rest of My Party.Also, it felt like I was basically never able to kill an eye back down to pre-stage 1. Between dodge tokens and their speed I would have to spend at least 3 actions to kill one eye. Anyways thanks for listening to me vent folks. It's just really frustrating because I end up feeling worse than I had before I started playing. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 10:28 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 10:25
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Warden posted:What's that, you got the General Trophy that gives permanent Immobilize? Well, sucks to be you I guess. Guess what my first encounter with that boss was  And yes, that boss is absolute trash, a blemish on an otherwise good game with cool bosses - I absolutely do not know what they were thinking, or what the playtesters were thinking, it's just total garbage. A binary puzzle fight at the end of a multi hour run is categorically not good Jetrauben posted:Also, honestly, I kinda agree that the big pain here is that once you - after great struggle - purge the chapter 3 boss, I can't see chapter 4 or chapter 5 adding much of anything, and if you're as bad at this game as I am you'll probably have already unlocked basically everything. That's exactly what chapters 4 and 5 do You just have to get past the worst speedbump in the game  Honestly just look up a party comp/setup to trash it, unlock a bunch of trinkets/inn items on the run you go for it and mercilessly cheese it to hell with a pile of accumulated inn items just before the mountain I'd say wait for them to patch it, but their current patch 'fixes' to address it don't seem to do anything to help the problems with it
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May 18, 2023 10:28
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I think another thing is that the relatively elaborate relationship system means that if you fail after spending the entire run getting attached to your characters and the little story they're playing out it feels incredibly demoralizing, which is probably a bad feature for a roguelite. Especially given how otherwise Hype the mountain and its barks are. "The brave companions set out and befriended each other on a long journey only to immediately eat poo poo at their destination."
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May 18, 2023 10:37
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Jetrauben posted:
the eyes apply tokens to their equivalent rank, so the first eye attacks rank 1, etc, and once applied the token only goes away if the eye is killed. So, you can kill the eye to clear the token, and then move the person who you want to stack the token on into that rank before they come back and it'll stack on them. It's much easier to just use Defender, though. Leper in particular just doesn't work in this fight since as far as I remember he can only move forward and doesn't have access to a skill that guards other characters, so it's nearly impossible to stack tokens on him. Man at Arms is essentially mandatory, since he's the only one who can really stack tokens and actually survive getting hit with Limerance a million times.
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May 18, 2023 11:01
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I just got to the last inn before the act three boss and it gave me a fresh negative quirk on all 4 of my heroes. Cool, cool
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May 18, 2023 11:59
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The past couple runs everything has died on the first DD check. I can think for maybe 2 enemies and 1 hero that didn't die immediately. Even bosses. Does the exemplar have -dbr on his claw because he killed everyone immediately except the last person. My next run I don't think anything lived past the first dd check, except maybe a cultist. I'm paranoid in general about dd so I made it to the act boss but I can't confirm if dd applied to heroes because act bosses have -dbr built in.
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May 18, 2023 12:37
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temple posted:The past couple runs everything has died on the first DD check. I can think for maybe 2 enemies and 1 hero that didn't die immediately. Even bosses. Does the exemplar have -dbr on his claw because he killed everyone immediately except the last person. My next run I don't think anything lived past the first dd check, except maybe a cultist. I'm paranoid in general about dd so I made it to the act boss but I can't confirm if dd applied to heroes because act bosses have -dbr built in. the most recent update nerfed DD heavily on enemies it buffed minimum DD on heroes though, so that's just bad luck
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May 18, 2023 12:39
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victrix posted:the most recent update nerfed DD heavily on enemies
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May 18, 2023 12:47
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Jetrauben posted:Also, honestly, I kinda agree that the big pain here is that once you - after great struggle - purge the chapter 3 boss, I can't see chapter 4 or chapter 5 adding much of anything, and if you're as bad at this game as I am you'll probably have already unlocked basically everything. Honestly while I understand what they wanted to do with this game and I feel like they've not done an AWFUL job of it they're not doing great when it comes to being a roguelike in the sense it feels like they're going for. Runs take too long and feel too similar. I don't want to spend 2/3 hours getting to the final boss of an act (and fighting a pretty strong miniboss!) to just die and do it exactly again with absolutely nothing new because changing stuff isn't really how the candle unlocks work. I've died once to a boss when it deaths doored 3 times, I've died because I misclicked and used the wrong ability (gently caress I use illumination so much instead of the Vestal attack ability) and yea okay they're sorta avoidable but it just feels poo poo to lose so much time to that. There's no artifacts that you can pick up to alter how the run goes, there's no new skills that my guys will get, the trinkets and combat items don't change MUCH. The story of DD1 isn't super deep or anything but at all times I feel like I'm somewhat involved in it. The specific character stories here I do, but not the overall story at all. What the gently caress is going on? I've no idea, honestly. The world seems to have ended and to stop it I'm fighting concepts in the mountain, whatever the mountain is. I wish they'd at least had it so each act threw in a new area and a new miniboss. Make the Sluice a proper zone, give us the Nobility (the vampire court), something like that.
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May 18, 2023 13:17
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I'll add to everyone singing MAA's praises for the Act III fight, but buff his speed as much as possible. He's got skills that can move him at the same time as attacking, and he can clear dodge tokens from every eye at once in addition to guarding.
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May 18, 2023 13:18
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Taear posted:Honestly while I understand what they wanted to do with this game and I feel like they've not done an AWFUL job of it they're not doing great when it comes to being a roguelike in the sense it feels like they're going for. Runs take too long and feel too similar. So, while I think with your guys help I'm getting a handle on the game I share a lot of these feelings. For the story I wish there was something ala everspace/dead cells going on, that like we've been trapped within the maddening death knells of the world doomed to forever fight the bad dude (don't remember/know who the bad guy is). Justify the characters all having the same names, and go ahead and make memories something that's just a thing you can unlock after beating a boss and stays permanently unless you want to take them off. Some youtuber mentioned how as the player, we must be one of the horses since they're the only being that keeps making these trips to the mountain to drop off these doomed heroes. For the chapter bosses I think making them easier but having more of them would have been great. Maybe not even the existing ones easier, but if there were some more traditional/less puzzle fights that you could crush through if the run was going well, you could build momentum with the game. If boss 3 was boss 6 maybe it wouldn't feel so bad having to bring the exact kit for it? Relationships are overpowered/run dominating. If I'm thinking strategy, getting good relationships or at least avoiding bad ones is too important. Maybe that's ok, but it's definitely the most important thing, since a bad relationship putting fragile on a character is probably a death sentence if it's a main skill. If negative skill's side effect had a low proc chance and positives had a decent proc chance maybe it would feel better. I think trinkets could really do with base level being like, instead of +10% health -3% crit, -1% crit or +20% health at least. MAA has 5% crit, I don't want to go from a d20 to a d50 for a crit on him, he hit's hard enough a crit is still pretty valuable. They've always really loved making trinkets terrible though. Oh, and when I want to take a route but the characters get mad at me for going the way I want to? Not a fan, don't touch the small amount of choice I have in deciding how I progress through a run. There's still loathing to push me around the map to force encounters, etc. This has been a jarring roguelike to get used to in how it engages with the mechanics similar to other games of the genre. To be clear I think those design decisions of other games are better decisions about making an enjoyable experience, not just the popular things to do. But while hating on it couldn't stop playing sooo...
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May 18, 2023 15:38
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Brutor Fartknocker posted:Relationships are overpowered/run dominating. If I'm thinking strategy, getting good relationships or at least avoiding bad ones is too important. Maybe that's ok, but it's definitely the most important thing, since a bad relationship putting fragile on a character is probably a death sentence if it's a main skill. If negative skill's side effect had a low proc chance and positives had a decent proc chance maybe it would feel better. Legit all I do in the inn is spend all my money managing my relationship It's boring
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May 18, 2023 15:53
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Fun Sprawl Trinket combo for Sharpshot Highwayman especially: Enlightening Element: 33% chance to apply 3 Burn on hit; 50% to give Dodge Token if Spd >8 Snappy Swing: +1 Burn inflicted; 50% to give Crit Token if Spd >8 Fully upgraded Sharpshot Highwayman has 8 Speed by default, so any Inn item that increased Speed even a little bit pushes him over it. Another fun one was getting Footman's Grog (converts Weak to Strength and Vuln to Block on turn start) on a Light Sensitive Ravager Hellion. Why yes, I would like 2 Strength tokens for free, and yes I would like to hit that backliner Occultist dragged in front of her with Demon's Pull, thank you very much. Then there's combo of Curing Cuppa and Poison Ring I already mentioned from Foetor. It is absolutely bonkers on Alchemist PD. It's a bit unlikely, but if both proc (66% and 33% respectively), then the enemy eats extra +5 Blight, with 66% resistance piercing.
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May 18, 2023 16:01
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Taear posted:Legit all I do in the inn is spend all my money managing my relationship spend money on managing the relationships, but also spend it on other stuff to get rid of bad quirks, food to buff hp, other inn items to prepare for the act boss or a lair boss, get good coach items if available, buy healing items, buy good trinkets if they're there. if all you spend your money on is managing relationships you're, idk, doing it wrong? you seem to really hate this game and its basic concepts, i'm really not sure why you play it
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May 18, 2023 16:16
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I def spend monies on whiskeys but also on slime mold meals and a trinket/wainwright item or two. You can address a lot of relationship points to get boosted in the first inn to safeguard a LOT of the run, I feel I get positive relationships more than negative ones now. As you progress more in the metagame and unlock more passive boosts to the game flow, frantically spending all the monies on the same items becomes less of an issue. Def prioritize hero progression but the other areas like the Intrepid Coats, whatever it's called, the one you unlock pets and passive bonuses while traveling, that one can really make a big difference.
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May 18, 2023 16:24
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My last run was cash poor. Trinkets galore but no money. No healing items either. I'm fine with randomness though, its a different challenge. I wish the actual run itself had more excitement. Like, there's nothing in the game I would call "run defining". Playing nethack and getting an early wand of death or mindflayer or friendly chameleon are all defining moments that you remember. There's little memorable occurrences in DD2. The most random/interesting thing in my experience is horrendous rng like when I fought a cannon, ghoul+guant, shambler, and cultists in a row.
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May 18, 2023 16:24
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temple posted:My last run was cash poor. Trinkets galore but no money. No healing items either. I dunno, getting the aforementioned Snappy Swig+Enlightening Element combo or Curing Cuppa+Poison Ring on my first region has certainly felt run-defining to me. 
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May 18, 2023 16:29
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horrendous rng is the new darkest dungeon Trinket/wainwright items take baubles, so they're not competing with relationship buff items. Now if there's a relationship item creating wainright item? drat sure that's worth grabbing. Also straight from the master themself: blizzardvizard posted:Kind of an obvious point but I always buy Inn Items that increase affinity if possible, and spend them before embarking to hit friendliness breakpoints as much as I can. Resolute (the quirk that makes you unable to take Whiskey) is unironically one of the worst quirks to me because of this, especially since your quirks transfer between runs if you have memories, and I always prioritize removing it. I also usually buy some lanterns at the start just in case I don't run into enough assistance encounters to keep my Flame up, since the Blaze doubles your ambush chances.
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May 18, 2023 16:31
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I need the ability to sell some of my poo poo, even if its for just a few coins because sometimes the amount of crap you get is so much and just throwing it away seems like a huge waste.
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May 18, 2023 16:41
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Warden posted:I dunno, getting the aforementioned Snappy Swig+Enlightening Element combo or Curing Cuppa+Poison Ring on my first region has certainly felt run-defining to me.
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May 18, 2023 16:52
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sugar free jazz posted:spend money on managing the relationships, but also spend it on other stuff to get rid of bad quirks, food to buff hp, other inn items to prepare for the act boss or a lair boss, get good coach items if available, buy healing items, buy good trinkets if they're there. if all you spend your money on is managing relationships you're, idk, doing it wrong? I'm just saying what annoys me about the game. And yea I'm done with it now, it's not worth playing when you know you've got boss 3 up next. I got 30 hours out of it though! And of course I'm being a bit hyperbolic but usually you have tonnes of food to buff your HP in your inventory anyway, it's just giving them all buckets and buckets of whiskey and books to increase relation is insanely important, more so than anything else. Trinkets doesn't even use the same currency! temple posted:Bosses have predictable trinket drops so I don't consider trinkets that big of a deal. The only real gamebreaker is something like the jinx because it dumpsters enemies. Yea the Jinx is legit great, one of the few things that REALLY stands out
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May 18, 2023 17:08
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Huh, using the "End expedition"-button at an Inn does NOT cause you to lose Memories on the Heroes. Neat. I learned that by losing PD and getting Leper as replacement. I couldn't make that work in a party with Hel/Flag/Jes, so I decided to call it quits.
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May 18, 2023 17:49
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what's everyone MO for Lairs, just go for what's available on the second region?Sassy Sasquatch posted:Someone posted upthread that getting Cowardice on your frontliners was a death sentence and I've come here to confirm that yes, you can save yourself a ton of time and press escape and click abandon run if that happens to you. (I've tried to power through it twice, won't do it again) Man at Arms can deal with it pretty nicely tho, his Hold The Line propels him fdw 3 ranks
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May 18, 2023 18:55
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Honest Thief posted:what's everyone MO for Lairs, just go for what's available on the second region? It depends on party comp, what regions are available at what modifiers, what did I get from the first inn, etc. If you take the first available Lair boss, it will never be Ordained and the sooner you get a power spike from their rewards, the better, but certain comps are bad against certain lair bosses. Like, if your party includes both a Ravager Hellion and a Runaway, you should never fight the Librarian. But to contrast, if you got a party of PD, Jester, Flaggy (Scourge preferred) and MAA, you can quite consistently beat the Dreaming General with pretty much empty pockets. If you leave fighting them for later, you'll be stronger, but if you leave it till the last region, you might end up in situation where you absolutely have to take the fight even though you are in a bad shape and can see that there's bad nodes after the lair. I lost a super-promising run because I got the loving Antiquarian in two road battles on a row after the lair, and HWM died to the first DBR test, and I couldn't beat the Exemplar with just three party members who were not at 100%. Also, if you are in Act III, you absolutely must never end up in a situation where your only Trophy comes from the General because if you get the one that permanently immobilizes you, you are hosed. Pretty much the same deal with the Harvest Child Trophy that increases hp at the cost of DBR, because Focused Fault will destroy you no matter what hp you have, because his killer move hits too hard, crit too often, and apply a permanent healing debuff. Warden fucked around with this message at 19:09 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 19:07
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I go hard for first zone lair, since a run is mostly likely to wipe on that. Also tangle since general seems easiest.
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May 18, 2023 19:09
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I do enjoy how many people complain about how unfair and RNG based the game is, posting on the exact same page as Blizzard. The guy who did the entire game on hard mode, without losing a single character across the whole campaign. Like I'm bad but I'm learning. If I can't beat a run it's a me problem. Blizzard used the same comp for the whole run and managed just fine. ON HARD MODE.
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May 18, 2023 19:09
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im like 90% sure Red Hook will scale down boss 3 in the coming weeks. they're always on top of tuning things and I've seen nothing but negative reactions to that battle. I probably won't kill myself trying to beat it til then.Killed a Girl in 96 posted:I do enjoy how many people complain about how unfair and RNG based the game is, posting on the exact same page as Blizzard. The guy who did the entire game on hard mode, without losing a single character across the whole campaign. not everyone has the same stuff unlocked yet so I understand + bad luck is bad luck, sometimes you get shafted by a random crit. it's equal to the guy who beat Melania in Elden Ring with nothing but a pot on his head, it's possible to do but like 90% of people really aren't able to lol. that being said I think the only bonehead thing needing fixing is boss 3; i'm grateful they already downtuned the enemy Death's Door since I felt that did need some changes. DLC Inc fucked around with this message at 19:16 on May 18, 2023 |
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May 18, 2023 19:12
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Killed a Girl in 96 posted:I do enjoy how many people complain about how unfair and RNG based the game is, posting on the exact same page as Blizzard. The guy who did the entire game on hard mode, without losing a single character across the whole campaign.
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May 18, 2023 19:16
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temple posted:"I beat it so its balanced"
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May 18, 2023 19:16
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DLC Inc posted:im like 90% sure Red Hook will scale down boss 3 in the coming weeks. they're always on top of tuning things and I've seen nothing but negative reactions to that battle. I probably won't kill myself trying to beat it til then. FWIW I got wrecked by the boss the first time I played him. My strategy for the second time though was pretty simple. Get a MAA to take all the tokens, stack deathblow resist on him, and use aoe to remove dodge from the eyes. Baristan died a hero after resisting death's door about 6 times, but my other team members rolled through just fine. gently caress doing that without a MAA though. Do you want bragging rights for beating the Eye pre-nerf or not?
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May 18, 2023 19:17
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temple posted:"I beat it so its balanced" It's not balanced. But it's extremely doable. This also isn't a twitch reflex game where you have to react to Malenia in milliseconds. You can think through everything, using strategy.
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May 18, 2023 19:20
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They should let me trade with the hoarder, it's annoying to have trinkets im not using and not being able to buy one good one because im missing 3 baubles or whatever
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May 18, 2023 19:23
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Killed a Girl in 96 posted:It's not balanced. But it's extremely doable. This also isn't a twitch reflex game where you have to react to Malenia in milliseconds. You can think through everything, using strategy. You writing that you have to react to Malenia in milliseconds instead of using strategy tells a lot about you, and what you don't know.
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May 18, 2023 19:25
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