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I've noticed in some matches the wrestlers repeat moves or situations. Like an example is the crockett cup '87 Ric/Barry fight. Ric backs barry up into a corner, ref pulls him off, ric chest chops Barry, and barry tries to go after ric, but the ref steps in. This happens 3 times in a row. Why is that?
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May 18, 2023 18:37
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Mr Hootington posted:I've noticed in some matches the wrestlers repeat moves or situations. Like an example is the crockett cup '87 Ric/Barry fight. Ric backs barry up into a corner, ref pulls him off, ric chest chops Barry, and barry tries to go after ric, but the ref steps in. This happens 3 times in a row. Why is that? in this case, its probably to make windham look like an honorable badass when he finally gets some offense in on flair. there are other reason to do the same thing 2 or 3 times in a row though.
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May 18, 2023 18:51
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Repetition legitimizes
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May 18, 2023 19:10
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Captain Foo posted:Repetition legitimizes Yeah. A large part of wrestling bears a striking resemblance to playing keep away, only you have to be able to judge when to finally let the crowd have the ball, so to speak. Some are really, really good at it. Like, well, Hogan at his peak.
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May 18, 2023 19:32
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The YouTube algorithm served up the Chris Benoit/David Flair squash match and ooooof I forgot how ridiculous those chops were
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May 19, 2023 00:25
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Did Ric ever wrestle David? Could even Ric have dragged an ok match out on him?
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May 19, 2023 01:32
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They did, it was not good, Russo was involved
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May 19, 2023 01:58
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david flair is a fighter in wcw backstage assault
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May 19, 2023 04:20
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David flair beat the undertaker
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May 19, 2023 09:59
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"Superstar" Billy Graham has died.
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May 19, 2023 13:12
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Mr Hootington posted:"Superstar" Billy Graham has died. rip hulk hogan
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May 19, 2023 18:38
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Dawgstar posted:Favorite Hogan lie: He claimed Lars wanted him wanted to play bass in Metallica. Lars was afraid Hogan would become the star of the band and actively pretends he'd never gotten his audition tape, brother
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May 19, 2023 18:47
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john belushi rose from the dead to watch hogan body slam andre the giant at wrestlemania 3
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May 19, 2023 18:49
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the sex ghost posted:David flair beat the undertaker
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May 19, 2023 19:07
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Mr Hootington posted:I've noticed in some matches the wrestlers repeat moves or situations. Like an example is the crockett cup '87 Ric/Barry fight. Ric backs barry up into a corner, ref pulls him off, ric chest chops Barry, and barry tries to go after ric, but the ref steps in. This happens 3 times in a row. Why is that? in 1987 they only had invented four moves
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May 19, 2023 19:08
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Halloween Jack posted:If I remember right, he pinned Cena clean a couple times when he was the Prototype. I would love to see those matches. theyre on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53rstJ3jEV8
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May 19, 2023 20:11
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So I finally got around to reading "Nitro" by Guy Evans. I'm about 1/2 through and so far my favorite part is where they list some of the insane details in Hulk Hogan's contract. WCW was paying him $20,000/month just to wear an nWo t-shirt on camera. Also I like "Death of WCW" much better, mainly because I don't trust a single word that comes out of Bischoff's mouth. edit: This book is terrible, there are like 10 pages devoted to nothing but quotes about the genius of Eric fuckin Bischoff. I'm gonna keep going, just tell me if I should shut the hell up. Here's another major gripe: The book spends a TON of pages dedicated to Swoll, one of Master P's entourage who was pulling down $400k/year despite having zero talent. The entire interview is just him talking about how happy he was to be earning that much money (which yeah, no loving duh) but unlike "Death of WCW" the book spends ZERO words detailing how awful the ratings were at that time and how Master P didn't even move the dial a single notch. And Bischoff is quoted at length being super upset at the idea of WCW having an "unlimited" budget and yet all of the incredibly idiotic wasteful contracts (like $500,000 for the KISS demon) are just simply mentioned like they're the cost of doing business when in reality they didn't even bring a single ratings point along with them. OK, so you might not have an unlimited budget but that's still a lot of money. One more example: Both books talk about how for the longest time, WCW would purchase plane tickets for EVERYBODY on the roster for TV tapings even for people WHO DIDN'T APPEAR ON TV. "Death of WCW" correctly identifies this as a symptom of a totally dysfunctional organization while "Nitro" tries to paint it as a way to counteract internet/dirtsheet leaks. This would be a better argument if "Nitro" didn't quote Bischoff on MULTIPLE pages talking about how he hated the internet and "gently caress those guys, we always did the opposite of what the dirtsheets said just to piss them off." It also undercuts the claim of not having unlimited money, because goddamn that's a huge amount of cash to drop on airline tickets for non-performing talent. I am realizing this is probably nothing new to the posters of this thread so I will definitely shut up now lmao haljordan fucked around with this message at 03:10 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 00:55
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I will happily read every thing you post about what that book gets wrong
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May 20, 2023 03:25
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haljordan posted:I am realizing this is probably nothing new to the posters of this thread so I will definitely shut up now lmao You're doing something I don't have the motivation to do so please keep updating if you want
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May 20, 2023 03:34
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I thank you both for the encouragement, I will post one more tidbit tonight. I swear to Christ, this a direct quote from Vince Russo: quote:"I was never on the Internet when I worked for [the WWF] or WCW", he says. "Those fans were going to watch no matter what -- just like they do today. We were after the causal fans -- the mass television audience." Vince Russo was the same rear end in a top hat responsible for having Bischoff, on live TV in 1999, reference the incident where Sid Vicious almost killed Arn Anderson with a pair of scissors (which occurred back in 1993), something that only the most EXTREMELY online fans would know at that point in time. Bischoff had to actually repeat the line twice (to zero pop) because no one knew what the gently caress he was talking about!!!! I'll probably post more stuff tomorrow when I get angry all over again. haljordan fucked around with this message at 04:04 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 03:51
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haljordan posted:So I finally got around to reading "Nitro" by Guy Evans. I'm about 1/2 through and so far my favorite part is where they list some of the insane details in Hulk Hogan's contract. WCW was paying him $20,000/month just to wear an nWo t-shirt on camera. The Master P stuff is probably the best part of the book. The book excells in weird little details like that and SUCKS at trying to do any big picture stuff, or in some cases coming off like it is written by someone who ever watched WCW a single time. I went over a bunch of the reasons it stunk when it came out but it has been awhile and there are some new posters, and it's easy to be annoyed at the full 400 pages of weird flaws in that book, especially since there is interesting stuff in there as well.
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May 20, 2023 05:11
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Bring back the Monumental Podcast for an ep on the Nitro book!
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May 20, 2023 06:36
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MassRafTer posted:The Master P stuff is probably the best part of the book. The book excells in weird little details like that and SUCKS at trying to do any big picture stuff, or in some cases coming off like it is written by someone who ever watched WCW a single time. This is a very succinct way of putting it, thanks. I genuinely enjoyed the early parts of the book that talked about how Nitro came to be and how nobody expected it go anywhere. I do have to give Bischoff some credit. I was in high school during the Monday Night Wars and I can still remember how INSANELY over the nWo was at one point. It was awesome as hell flipping between the two shows and watching them fight it out. You'll never see anything like that ever again (in ANY sport). AEW has some kick rear end talent but WWE is just so dominant now. "NItro" also does a good job of describing just how amazingly good the WWE is at making money from any and all revenue streams, and how much of a slapdash organization WCW was. One good example: Since so many WCW guys had themes that were just covers of existing songs, they could never capitalize on that by releasing a CD of entrance music (which was a huge moneymaker for WWE). Even their own people who came up with the themes thought that was dumb. Also it apparently only cost a single payment of $100,000 to get the rights to "Voodoo Child" to use for Hogan. I would've thought that number would have been way higher. Nobody at WCW seemed to know exactly who was in charge, either. Guys would get three different finishes for a match from three different people, guys would get told they're getting a match two minutes beforehand, etc. Vince clearly has his own issues but he was ALWAYS the final word over at WWE and absolutely nothing happened without his approval. I got a pretty good chortle out of the pages where Bischoff and others legit try to blame the company's downfall on shady corporate accounting practices. That obviously is a thing that happens all the time, but they were pretty much shoveling piles of money directly into a furnace at that point. Part of what made "Death of WCW" such a compelling read, at least for me, was how frequently they detailed the ratings (down to the quarter hour on many occasions). That really gives you a sense of how little of a return WCW was getting on all the money they spent on bullshit. I understand that "Nitro" was obviously written in a way that tries to appeal to someone who wasn't already a fan of wrestling, but once it gets to the point where Raw overtakes Nitro in the ratings, they just completely gloss over the horrendous, nonsensical bookings that plagued WCW. The book makes it seem like WCW tanked because Standards & Practices got involved, or because Vince managed to get Mike Tyson to show up at Wrestlemania. Maybe those aren't total non-factors, but man, the on-screen product turned to complete and utter dogshit so fast. haljordan fucked around with this message at 12:46 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 11:41
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I think one of the things that still gets me about late era WCW is that a lot of the... I don't want to call them 'angles' because that implies that there was at some point payoff to them... a lot of the television beats that were booked seemed to be done just because someone in creative thought that they were really smart and funny if the audience understood the full context, man. But the audience rarely did and even more rarely cared; Ron and Don Harris as 'Creative Control' wasn't interesting and neither of them could talk at all and they weren't given a mouthpiece so even if by accident the reference to how hard it was to successfully book Hulk Hogan got over with the live crowds they weren't going to be able to do anything with them or run any stories about them or make any money from them.
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May 20, 2023 13:19
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NorgLyle posted:I think one of the things that still gets me about late era WCW is that a lot of the... I don't want to call them 'angles' because that implies that there was at some point payoff to them... a lot of the television beats that were booked seemed to be done just because someone in creative thought that they were really smart and funny if the audience understood the full context, man. But the audience rarely did and even more rarely cared; Ron and Don Harris as 'Creative Control' wasn't interesting and neither of them could talk at all and they weren't given a mouthpiece so even if by accident the reference to how hard it was to successfully book Hulk Hogan got over with the live crowds they weren't going to be able to do anything with them or run any stories about them or make any money from them. A toooooon of that stuff came from Vince Russo, he assumed every single person watching on TV or in the crowd was a smark and in on the joke. I mean everybody knows wrestling is "fake" (in the sense that it's scripted) but people don't want to have that poo poo thrown in their faces. It completely takes you out of the moment and makes it impossible to enjoy the product. "Death of WCW" compares it to if you were watching "Jurassic Park" and all of a sudden during a key scene, there was a technical gently caress-up and the polished, computer generated dinosaurs completely disappeared and were replaced with wireframe mock-ups. Obviously you're not watching actual dinosaurs up on the screen, but the movie does such a great job with presenting itself and building up that world that you can suspend disbelief for a few hours without constantly thinking "This is stupid, these dinosaurs are fake and made by computers." haljordan fucked around with this message at 14:02 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 13:21
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The thing about assuming that everybody in the audience knows pro wrestling is "fake" is that yes, most of us do know it is scripted, and the big muscly men aren't trying to hurt each other, only trying to make it look like they are. And that the one guy didn't kill the other guys dog and feed it to him for dinner, (RIP Pepper). Little kids don't know that though. And we can all admit that the best wrestling fan is a little kid wrestling fan, Even for the rest of us, though we know that now. There was a time, be it a long time or a short time, but there was a time when we didn't. Most likely when we were also little kids. And it was that time that made us fans, even if we "grew out of it", or however you want to phrase it, it was that "Oh no! The great shiny hero Hulk Hogan, (or Cena or whoever depending on the fans age) is being beaten up. I sure hope he wins." feeling that keeps us watching. So to cynically poo poo on that to make some inside jokes is not something that attracts or pleases viewers.
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May 20, 2023 14:34
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BrigadierSensible posted:The thing about assuming that everybody in the audience knows pro wrestling is "fake" is that yes, most of us do know it is scripted, and the big muscly men aren't trying to hurt each other, only trying to make it look like they are. And that the one guy didn't kill the other guys dog and feed it to him for dinner, (RIP Pepper). Yeah that's very true, I shouldn't have said absolutely "everybody." Also a very poignant post! quote:So to cynically poo poo on that to make some inside jokes is not something that attracts or pleases viewers. lol this should be the epitaph of the Russo Era. haljordan fucked around with this message at 17:15 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 15:09
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i don’t want a john wick villain to start calling john wick “keanu” or ask him why he isn’t following the script or any other fourth wall breaking stuff, i just want them to get on with the action so i can hoot and holler at it. wrestling is same deal.
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May 20, 2023 15:26
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MassRafTer posted:especially since there is interesting stuff in there as well. One such neat detail that initially escaped my attention: According to Kevin Nash, even when Nitro was beating Raw in the ratings, WWE's PPV buyrates held steady the entire time. Once Raw took over, WCW's PPV numbers just totally cratered. I don't think WWE was ever in true danger of folding during the Monday Night Wars, but if their PPV numbers had slipped as badly as WCW's, who knows what would've happened?
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May 20, 2023 17:35
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I remember growing up and understanding the scriptedness of wrestling matches around 8-10, but then being extremely confused and conflicted when I began watching ECW. It wasn't until I got older with the internet that I found out that some wrestlers are actual gluttons for pain and stiff shots and are actually just crazy enough to work through insane injuries a la Sabu. Also, it's pretty annoying when people conflate "fake" and "scripted," especially main stream media people like Bill Maher who have completely disrespected and written off the entire industry in the past like these guys don't destroy their bodies for the work. I can only imagine how enraged many pro wrestlers have been in the past to get such disrespect to their faces.
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May 20, 2023 17:36
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iamsosmrt posted:I remember growing up and understanding the scriptedness of wrestling matches around 8-10, but then being extremely confused and conflicted when I began watching ECW. It wasn't until I got older with the internet that I found out that some wrestlers are actual gluttons for pain and stiff shots and are actually just crazy enough to work through insane injuries a la Sabu. Yeah I hope I was clear I was calling wrestling "fake" ONLY in the scripted sense. I am totally with you on that. Most people probably still honestly believe the wrestling ring is just a giant trampoline.
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May 20, 2023 17:37
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haljordan posted:One such neat detail that initially escaped my attention: According to Kevin Nash, even when Nitro was beating Raw in the ratings, WWE's PPV buyrates held steady the entire time. Once Raw took over, WCW's PPV numbers just totally cratered. I don't think WWE was ever in true danger of folding during the Monday Night Wars, but if their PPV numbers had slipped as badly as WCW's, who knows what would've happened? That's not true, WWF buyrates were very, very bad in that era. WWF was in very bad shape in 1997, that's the entire reason Vince needed to cut costs and decided to start with Bret. They were in a ton of debt and their PPV business sucked. It's slightly deceptive because they added on more PPVs, but the company was badly in debt in 1997 until they raised the price on the IYH PPVs and buys held up, greatly increasing their revenue. MassRafTer fucked around with this message at 17:44 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 17:41
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MassRafTer posted:That's not true, WWF buyrates were very, very bad in that era. WWF was in very bad shape in 1997, that's the entire reason Vince needed to cut costs and decided to start with Bret. They were in a ton of debt and their PPV business sucked. Oh wow well Kevin Nash is full of poo poo then who would've guessed! edit: Yeah, WCW beat them 11 months out of 12 and really blew them out of the water most of the time. The only time WWE came out ahead was Summerslam against Road Wild (which also resulted in a $0 gate for WCW since everyone got in free lol). haljordan fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 17:43
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haljordan posted:Oh wow well Kevin Nash is full of poo poo then who would've guessed! It's possible he's thinking of how the IYH PPVs didn't drop in buys when they raised prices which allowed the company to make more revenue, but their average per PPV buys were much lower in 95 and 96 than 94 and Wrestlemania 13 especially cratered.
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May 20, 2023 17:46
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MassRafTer posted:It's possible he's thinking of how the IYH PPVs didn't drop in buys when they raised prices which allowed the company to make more revenue, but their average per PPV buys were much lower in 95 and 96 than 94 and Wrestlemania 13 especially cratered. I am pretty sure Vince would've pulled off a Heat style bank heist if he really had to, rather than ever sell the company lol Also I will make sure to do a bit more research before shooting my dumb mouth off next time, because as you said things were very very very bad for WWE in '97.
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May 20, 2023 17:50
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MassRafTer posted:It's possible he's thinking of how the IYH PPVs didn't drop in buys when they raised prices which allowed the company to make more revenue, but their average per PPV buys were much lower in 95 and 96 than 94 and Wrestlemania 13 especially cratered. Touring Canada after Mania also helped a lot as they got huge houses that they weren't doing in the US and even with Taxes/lower Canadian dollar they were still making good money. Mania 13 having such a bad buy rate is not shocking considering what a messy build the show was. Turns out back than you actually needed a Main Event and a proper build to sell the show!
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May 20, 2023 18:03
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haljordan posted:I am pretty sure Vince would've pulled off a Heat style bank heist if he really had to, rather than ever sell the company lol I think he would have just taken on more financing but the more debt you take on the more power your lenders have over you which is something Vince hates. He was also facing the cancelation of Raw at the end of the 97-98 season. Obviously things turned around to such a degree that USA changed its mind and only canned boxing, but if things didn't turn around the second they did he was in trouble.
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May 20, 2023 18:27
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MassRafTer posted:I think he would have just taken on more financing but the more debt you take on the more power your lenders have over you which is something Vince hates. He was also facing the cancelation of Raw at the end of the 97-98 season. Obviously things turned around to such a degree that USA changed its mind and only canned boxing, but if things didn't turn around the second they did he was in trouble. Yeah if Raw had been canceled, Vince probably would have had a hell of a time finding anyone other than a loan shark to float him enough money to keep things going. It really is stunning how quickly WCW fell and how insanely fast WWE's fortunes turned around. Wrestling is a fuckin' crazy business. haljordan fucked around with this message at 18:42 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 18:29
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haljordan posted:I am pretty sure Vince would've pulled off a Heat style bank heist if he really had to, rather than ever sell the company lol "Never book anything you're not willing to walk away from in thirty seconds."
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May 21, 2023 02:16
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Road Wild is the most WCW thing in that it was a yearly reminder that they gave away a free ppv to racist neo Nazism that drew no buys and was just to bill going to Sturgus as a work expense.
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May 21, 2023 02:23
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