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Cessna posted:I just want to state that I am not, in fact, a fan of Oliver Cromwell despite painting some New Model Army models. Despite evidence that I have, indeed, painted some Mongol horse archers, I take this opportunity to declare that I am opposed to the decision of butchering Baghdad in 1258. E: Georgian Britain however was a totalitarian plight that would have deserved to be stamped out. Vive l’Empereur! lilljonas fucked around with this message at 20:23 on May 19, 2023 |
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May 19, 2023 20:18
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I painted up a number of black and brown soldiers/tankers/gunners in my allied army and if it makes sense scenario wise I'll also try to work in integrated or racialized units. For me it's a novel way to simultaneously research history and add some visual pop, but if it triggers some shithead then so much the better I guess.
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May 19, 2023 20:21
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Southern Heel posted:I had pretty much written off Blucher because of those funky bases, but I will give it another view - thank you. Southern Heel, if you're interested in Blucher we play it at the Wargames club in Brighton, plus plenty of other games https://brightonwargamesclub.wordpress.com/
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May 19, 2023 20:37
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:I am in fact a bonapartiste lilljonas posted:E: Georgian Britain however was a totalitarian plight that would have deserved to be stamped out. Vive l’Empereur! 
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May 19, 2023 21:22
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Southern Heel posted:Nobody seems to have a massive problem modelling the Spartans, Romans, Normans, Parliamentarians, Native Americans, Napoleonic British, Communist or literally any other side espite being as legitimate as targets they're not as blatantly obvious to the smoothbrains. it's absolute nonsense and as above, is virtue- or rage-baiting depending on your perspective. I think the big difference is nobody's really jonesing for a return to rule-by-gerontes or whatever the spartans had going on, whereas people definitely are doing that for the nazis and the confederacy, and to the extent they're also doing that for the greeks or whatever it's usually as a dogwhistle for wanting one or both of those other two things. That said, WW2 was for the longest time my jam, wargames-wise, and I'm pretty much on Cessna's side with all the points he raised. But I do think, sadly, the context of specifically the nazis (and the confederacy) is distinct from every other historical monster you could play.
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May 20, 2023 09:40
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Hang on how are Native Americans as bad as Nazis
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May 20, 2023 12:55
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Endman posted:Hang on how are Native Americans as bad as Nazis Who gives a poo poo can we please excuse real life politics from this thread?
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May 20, 2023 13:24
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Southern Heel posted:Who gives a poo poo can we please excuse real life politics from this thread? But you’re the one who made the comparison e: you wrote a big ol’ post declaring your opinions. You can’t throw those out there and then get pissed when other people respond to it best bale fucked around with this message at 13:43 on May 20, 2023 |
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May 20, 2023 13:39
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best bale posted:But you’re the one who made the comparison My opinion was “it’s all nonsense”, not taking a position
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May 20, 2023 13:57
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Southern Heel posted:My opinion was “it’s all nonsense”, not taking a position quote:Nobody seems to have a massive problem modelling the Spartans, Romans, Normans, Parliamentarians, Native Americans, Napoleonic British, Communist or literally any other side espite being as legitimate as targets 
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May 20, 2023 14:25
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Seems weird to me that this would be a hot topic item recently by some peeps in the historicals. Do they not play video games? How wrong has it been for years to play Call of Duty or Battlefield XYZ where you're playing as Germans, or Soviets, or the bad Soviets, or Russians? I definitely think its worthwhile to take a moment and give some thought about a game you play or why you enjoy "thing" from that game/event/war, but getting bent out of shape because I played Tigers vs IS-1s and everybody died seems like a bit much  .
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May 20, 2023 14:59
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Seems weird to me that this would be a hot topic item recently by some peeps in the historicals. Do they not play video games? How wrong has it been for years to play Call of Duty or Battlefield XYZ where you're playing as Germans, or Soviets, or the bad Soviets, or Russians? It's probably more to do with the surge in authoritarianism/neo-fascism that's been happening in regards to modern politics (both here in the US and elsewhere) over the last few years. I can understand why it might make someone feel a bit uneasy about playing the Germans in a WW2 game, or the Confederacy in an American Civil War game, when there are people proudly displaying some of the same symbolism and slogans in the present day. I'd also say it's one of those things that just periodically pops up in regards to historical wargaming, every so often the topic of "do I really want to play the Germans in a WW2 game" comes up, because the person asking that question is usually worried they're going to be lumped in with a bunch of wehraboos. Normally I'd just joke and say "have the other side play the Russians, that way you've got two historically brutally repressive regimes fighting each other", but nowadays that joke doesn't seem quite as funny any more.
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May 20, 2023 15:26
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Sydney Bottocks posted:It's probably more to do with the surge in authoritarianism/neo-fascism that's been happening in regards to modern politics (both here in the US and elsewhere) over the last few years. I can understand why it might make someone feel a bit uneasy about playing the Germans in a WW2 game, or the Confederacy in an American Civil War game, when there are people proudly displaying some of the same symbolism and slogans in the present day. The trick is to play Germans, but paint them as Tomainians and loudly declare that you are fighting against machine men with machine minds and machine hearts.
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May 20, 2023 15:30
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Seems weird to me that this would be a hot topic item recently by some peeps in the historicals. Do they not play video games? How wrong has it been for years to play Call of Duty or Battlefield XYZ where you're playing as Germans, or Soviets, or the bad Soviets, or Russians? Not only does Guy from MWM play videogames, that video is sponsored by World of Warships.
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May 20, 2023 15:57
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Sydney Bottocks posted:It's probably more to do with the surge in authoritarianism/neo-fascism that's been happening in regards to modern politics (both here in the US and elsewhere) over the last few years. I can understand why it might make someone feel a bit uneasy about playing the Germans in a WW2 game, or the Confederacy in an American Civil War game, when there are people proudly displaying some of the same symbolism and slogans in the present day. Yeah that's fair, if you're meticulously painting every model you own to be the exact shade of Otto Carius or whatever, you might be a weeaboo, but presumably you also don't play with racist pieces of poo poo. Ultimately, find your comfort level in terms of historical accuracy, sing a few bars of the MST3K theme, and play what you want against who you like.
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May 20, 2023 16:18
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Yeah, to be clear, I don't think anyone's wrong for playing WW2 or ACW games, but I also think it's not some completely bizarre take only a lunatic would make. There's really obvious reasons why someone would experience an  reaction to looking at a table with nazis on it but wouldn't at seeing spartans or landsknechts, even though those were also lovely people.Like, pointedly, it's notable people are pretty happy to jokingly pretend they're actually bonapartists (inb4 "who's joking"), an ideology that functionally no longer exists and definitely doesn't have major representation among english-language politics.
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May 20, 2023 16:56
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Endman posted:Hang on how are Native Americans as bad as Nazis I still need an answer to this one too
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May 20, 2023 17:11
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Being on the fun committee for work means I get to inflict my taste in boardgames on the group occasionally. One of my big loves is for naval warfare, especially ironclads. Lucky for me, the War of the Pacific happened so nobody has to play Confederates and we avoid any awkward conversations at work. Since I like to share treats, https://www.wargamevault.com/product/396791/Dawn-of-Iron-The-American-Civil-War-at-Sea--First-Anthology https://www.wargamevault.com/product/422184/Dawn-of-Iron-War-of-the-Pacific-18791884 https://www.wargamevault.com/product/125572/South-American-Ironclads https://www.wargamevault.com/product/238604/War-of-the-Pacific https://www.wargamevault.com/product/326917/Brazilian-Ironclads drat the torpedoes!
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May 20, 2023 17:12
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alg posted:I still need an answer to this one too i dont think so actually and imo this derail sucks rear end every time it comes up
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May 20, 2023 18:42
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i dont think so actually and imo this derail sucks rear end every time it comes up We can end this particular derail, but “this derail sucks rear end” is a poo poo take. Even if the topic is unpleasant it’s absolutely a part of the hobby. as a gay chick in an overwhelming straight white dude hobby, it’s nice to hear the lovely parts acknowledged
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May 20, 2023 18:49
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best bale posted:We can end this particular derail, but “this derail sucks rear end” is a poo poo take. Even if the topic is unpleasant it’s absolutely a part of the hobby. as a gay chick in an overwhelming straight white dude hobby, it’s nice to hear the lovely parts acknowledged i don't care. it's tiresome. no one itt is a nazi and the thread treads the same ground every time. all that is left is for people to read posts in bad faith and create arguments out of whole cloth, like what is going on here with the "um excuse me can you please explain carefully how you're not a monster with this post???" anyway. painted some more henry turner at 15 mm. i like how these are turning out. pretty fast to do just a flat white prime and speed paint, and the effect is pretty good in a 36 man regiment      
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May 20, 2023 18:54
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i don't care. it's tiresome. no one itt is a nazi and the thread treads the same ground every time. all that is left is for people to read posts in bad faith and create arguments out of whole cloth, like what is going on here with the "um excuse me can you please explain carefully how you're not a monster with this post???" Oh word, glad to know what is and isn’t worth discussing. Asking someone to explain what they meant isn’t unreasonable
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May 20, 2023 19:12
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mllaneza posted:Being on the fun committee for work means I get to inflict my taste in boardgames on the group occasionally. One of my big loves is for naval warfare, especially ironclads. Lucky for me, the War of the Pacific happened so nobody has to play Confederates and we avoid any awkward conversations at work. Hell yeah, I need to get back into painting my ironclads. I love the idea of quick painting up some ironclads, throwing down some blue cloth and just going at it.
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May 20, 2023 20:05
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:i dont think so actually and imo this derail sucks rear end every time it comes up Glad the thread arbiter's here to tell people what they can and can't discuss
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May 20, 2023 20:16
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Southern Heel posted:Nobody seems to have a massive problem modelling the Spartans, Romans, Normans, Parliamentarians, Native Americans, Napoleonic British, Communist or literally any other side espite being as legitimate as targets they're not as blatantly obvious to the smoothbrains. Wait why are hot cocoa on the couch posted:i dont think so actually and imo this derail sucks rear end every time it comes up This has come up before?!
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May 20, 2023 20:24
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moths posted:
The topic of which conflicts and/or armies are problematic or gives us the back stomach feel is a recurring topic. I admit to be highly illogical in my gut reaction: I feel ok with collecting WW2 armies and earlier while ’Nam and later typically makes me wanna pass.
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May 20, 2023 20:43
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I also don't think it's that much of a derail for a couple people to say yeah this sucks and is a real thing and our hobby space (like the wink wink purge the unclean 40K fascists that are out there). Honestly the openness and frankness at which we are (almost) all willing to say gently caress those people are what keeps me coming back to this thread and if you don't want to read that go literally anywhere else with the lovely "let's not talk politics" angle even though not talking about politics is political in itself and an affirmation of the status quo.
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May 20, 2023 21:21
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:
Those look really great. I definitely seesaw between cartoony and realistic looking, and I don’t think I would choose these – but they have a definite feel to them! Do you have any examples of cavalry?
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May 20, 2023 21:31
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fwiw i think the argument is easily resolved with either "by that I meant that-(particular thing that makes sense and isn't some kind of insane dogwhistle)" or "yeah, sorry, that was clumsy" are both good argument enders, whereas "I don't have to explain myself to anyone and will not be discussing this further, everyone shut up" is definitely going to continue it indefinitely.
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May 20, 2023 21:46
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Anyway I know that civil war era steam frigates had masts as a backup to the steam-screw system, but did they run with sails and rigging and everything? Trying to decide how detailed I want to do my ships for Hampton Roads.
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May 20, 2023 21:57
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spectralent posted:fwiw i think the argument is easily resolved with either "by that I meant that-(particular thing that makes sense and isn't some kind of insane dogwhistle)" or "yeah, sorry, that was clumsy" are both good argument enders, whereas "I don't have to explain myself to anyone and will not be discussing this further, everyone shut up" is definitely going to continue it indefinitely. Yeah, literally all that needed to be said was "sorry, mistake on my part" (to lump a historically oppressed and genocided people in with a bunch of conquerors and colonizers who were mostly pretty ruthless about it).
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May 20, 2023 21:57
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It's not the topic itself that is the problem, it's the fact that every time the discussion almost immediately devolves into goons pecking at each other over minutiae. I feel like this goonhammer article should be the standard we hold ourselves to when we discuss these issues.
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May 20, 2023 22:20
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Approaching it from an honest read of the least lovely version of the story I can find, plenty of Native American warleaders pulled some underhand poo poo right from Jamestown to the tail end of Geronimo's career ranging from trying to provoke the settlers into fights to look strong to neighbouring tribes alllll the way to raiding forts out west and leaving cultural signifiers of neighbouring tribes so that the US government would send the cavalry to go kill them instead. That's why it's a thing we can wargame rather than just rolling dice to see how many turns it takes to run out of civilians to genocide. Or maybe it's just a point about the conquests of Ēxcān Tlahtōlōyān, because that's a thing you can wargame too.
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May 20, 2023 22:28
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See, my acceptable read was "the wars are sometimes called the native american wars and they were referring to the wars in general rather than the specific group". That or "the native americans did have a period where their wars between each other were about civilian violence for the purposes of driving other tribes out of territory", rather than the more immediately thought of US/native wars.
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May 20, 2023 22:49
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There's a solid three hundred years of colonial history there, and people are people. There's plenty of scope for wargaming in that period.
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May 20, 2023 23:40
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Count Thrashula posted:Anyway I know that civil war era steam frigates had masts as a backup to the steam-screw system, but did they run with sails and rigging and everything? Trying to decide how detailed I want to do my ships for Hampton Roads. They'd be full rigged. For a steam and sail ship, you can just go with the masts and maybe the stays and ratlines. They'd furl sails for combat and fight on steam power. This should provide ample inspiration, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnV6KqI3gGA
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May 21, 2023 00:11
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The funny part about these discussions about the 'morality' of historical wargaming is that everyone gets super defensive. Honestly, wargaming is all about representing the most horrible poo poo ever (war) with tiny little facsimiles of the human beings that experienced and perpetrated the most horrible poo poo ever. There's not really a moral high ground to take here, and its up to your own personal moral calculus as to whether you're okay with it, because the underlying uncomfortable truth of the matter is that it's fun.
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May 21, 2023 00:40
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mllaneza posted:They'd be full rigged. For a steam and sail ship, you can just go with the masts and maybe the stays and ratlines. They'd furl sails for combat and fight on steam power. Little Wars TV is such a good channel. I've been watching heaps of their stuff over the past couple of weeks. Also painting tax for bringing up morality in wargaming again:   A barn for my models to miss the broadest side of.
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May 21, 2023 00:45
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I think the accurate read is that including Native Americans in that list was an attempt at edgelord shitposting. But Imma turn around and agree with it. I grew up in a cultural wasteland in Northeast Louisiana. Every field trip we ever took for school was to the Poverty Point archaeological site but that place is ancient and unsolved enough the people working there also teach you about the later Mississipians who were a peaceful trading and building civilization in the SE US that were exterminated by the other Native American tribes right before the Europeans invaded. Like years, not decades, the blood still fresh.
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May 21, 2023 01:17
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moths posted:Wait why are Native Americans is a pretty large group of people; all the people of two continents for perhaps 12,000 thousand years or more, with a projected max population of over 50 million. There are numerous groups that saw different paths to survival, some of which involved cooperation, some of which involved complex gift giving rituals to create a wealth balanced society, and some that utilized warfare to achieve their ends. It was not uncommon for the Mohawk Iroquois, for example, to take prisoners for the sole purpose of execution, and would make these deaths tortious. Often the torture, rape, and murder would be of the captured warrior's family, with the warrior killed last to ensure they see their family destroyed. Genocide was not uncommon when it came to many groups capturing territory and systemically eliminating all traces of the occupants who were there. Central and Southern American groups would routinely sacrifice prisoners and others, in addition to practicing slavery. Obviously the scale and the scope pales in comparison that of the Holocaust, but it is certain the Mohawk Iroquois would have completed a total genocide of the Algonquin if they could have reasonably achieved it, and we can assume that many groups we will never know the history of were unfortunate victims of genocide.
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May 21, 2023 01:21
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