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Kitfox88 posted:I'm playing a reach weapon fighter in my group's AV game and at level 3 I'm having a ton of fun. Walking up and power attacking something for 2d10+4 damage and then getting to slap someone else during my off turn who feels like getting cheeky is real nice, and since fighters have real good bonuses you hit more often too. There's nothing wrong with liking or designing simple fighters. The complaint has historically been that fighters (and martial characters in general) were always simple and nothing else, and that simple meant less powerful than the classes with more rules tacked on (spellcasters).
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May 21, 2023 07:55
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It's simple but then again I'm a simple person who enjoys rolling dice.
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the problem here too is talking about fighter as a synecdoche for the overall martial/caster problem in dnd-type games, because fighter specifically in PF2 is something of an anomaly. if you just want to power attack you'll do better damage than anyone else, and if you want to specialize into weird control stuff you'll also be top-shelf at that with minimum effort compared to more complicated classes added later like magus, swashbuckler, or gunslinger. overall the martial/caster power dynamic doesn't strongly favor one or the other in PF2 because there's stuff that spells can do that simply cannot be replicated, but fighter itself is probably just plain overtuned unless other party members are going harder on optimization.
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May 21, 2023 08:38
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Arivia posted:There's nothing wrong with liking or designing simple fighters. The complaint has historically been that fighters (and martial characters in general) were always simple and nothing else, and that simple meant less powerful than the classes with more rules tacked on (spellcasters). Oh I didn't mean to come off like that, I was saying that yeah I'm playing about the simplest fighter you could but I still feel like I'm contributing to the party and not being dead weight. It's real nice!
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May 21, 2023 14:29
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I think it a really good idea to encourage players coming from 5ed to roll a fighter in their first game. While the game is different enough to be obvious in any scene, fighters are great to showcase just how much better PF's combat can be in the same situations. Two things sold me on PF2 when I first played it: the goblin shark barbarian that would bite enemies and chase them as a reaction whenever they moved, and the shield blocking fighter dropping and enemy on their turn, intimidating another, and raising their shield only to push the attacker away as a reaction once they tried to hit him. Between how easy it was to build the barbarian and the fighter just doing a bunch of cool poo poo on their turn, I was hooked. Casters may have the opposite effect. 5ed is usually very selfish so casters are used to blasting everyone and being the paper cannon of the group, feeling awesome after burning all of their enemies (while the fighter gets one attack off in the whole combat). Going from that to the more support and control role they have in pf can feel bad if you don't know yet how integral your non-damaging spells can be.
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May 21, 2023 14:51
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Casters may have the opposite effect. 5ed is usually very selfish so casters are used to blasting everyone and being the paper cannon of the group, feeling awesome after burning all of their enemies (while the fighter gets one attack off in the whole combat). Uh what. 5ed casters usually are quite mediocre DPS. I mean, in 5ed fighter are... the best DPS in the game? They have a bunch of attacks really early and a bunch of talents. They can deal an incredible amount of damage in a very consistent way (paladins go higher, but they are less consistent). A 11 level fighter with a greatsword and great weapon master can deal on average 70 damages every round, 140 when they use action surge. This with no magic weapon, no crits, and no subclass shenanigans. It has never been damage their problem. YggdrasilTM fucked around with this message at 15:41 on May 21, 2023 |
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May 21, 2023 14:54
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I really wish there was an artist out there creative enough to hear the prompt "D&D fighter wrestler" and come up with something other than a 1920s strong-man with Liefeld abs.
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May 21, 2023 14:58
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Fidel Cuckstro posted:I really wish there was an artist out there creative enough to hear the prompt "D&D fighter wrestler" and come up with something other than a 1920s strong-man with Liefeld abs. You might take a look at the Martial Arts Handbook volume from the 1e Player Compendium line. Tons of unarmed combatants in there, including a straight-up luchador.
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May 21, 2023 15:19
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YggdrasilTM posted:Uh what. 5ed casters usually are quite mediocre DPS. If a fighter is only getting off one attack per combat, it means it was nova-able, and casters generally have the best nova with stuff like quickened fireball + damage cantrip. Pure DPR martials probably come out ahead longrun even with how good cantrips are, but if the casters have resources and there's not just one enemy casters easily outpace fighters for the rounds where they're able to drop big spells.
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May 22, 2023 01:19
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Also, DPR isn't a great way to really measure usefulness in Pathfinder https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1397y60/michael_sayre_paizo_design_manager_says_that_dpr/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/13aa7wf/mark_seifter_pf2_cocreator_roll_for_combat
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May 22, 2023 01:22
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Futzing around with a monk backup character. Mainly I want to be able to trip reliably, which means I think either Strength-focus or Assurance Athletics (or both?). Was looking at Monastic Weaponry to use the bo-staff (not bow-staff) since it's got trip + reach which seems pretty cool. But am I sleeping on Stances? There's the water one that gives a trip bonus, and the wolf one that has trip if you're flanking. But both of those seem worse than just Stunning Blows + Trip from 10 feet away so an enemy eats their two actions just standing and moving to anyone. Is it normal to take only one Stance or is mixing and matching a thing?
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May 22, 2023 02:52
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Hugoon Chavez posted:I think it a really good idea to encourage players coming from 5ed to roll a fighter in their first game. While the game is different enough to be obvious in any scene, fighters are great to showcase just how much better PF's combat can be in the same situations. This is very true and absolutely necessary for 5e refugees. Interesting I've seen a disparity between people who came from 5e versus people who are brand-new to TTRPGs. The absolute newbies seem to map much more instinctively to the idea of being nerd support for the jocks while those from 5e look at their spell list like "where is my spell-themed sledgehammer?" The funny thing there is that I've seen PF vets use heightened spells to shred monsters but it's nowhere near as obvious as the "spam Firebolt" or "spam Eldritch Blast" button that made a lot of 5e combat tired. On the flip side people from 5e are telling me "I never thought I'd enjoy a martial character this much" after a few fights where they really feel mechanically supported to cut loose and do all the wild poo poo they want to do, feeling very much like their character is out and on-point.
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May 22, 2023 03:39
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mind the walrus posted:Interesting I've seen a disparity between people who came from 5e versus people who are brand-new to TTRPGs. The absolute newbies seem to map much more instinctively to the idea of being nerd support for the jocks while those from 5e look at their spell list like "where is my spell-themed sledgehammer?" The funny thing there is that I've seen PF vets use heightened spells to shred monsters but it's nowhere near as obvious as the "spam Firebolt" or "spam Eldritch Blast" button that made a lot of 5e combat tired. I would bet that's at least in part because the non-5e newbies are coming from the context of MMOs (either directly, or via pop culture osmosis), so it's obvious to them that spellcasters are supposed to do buffs/debuffs and handle the adds.
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May 22, 2023 05:14
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3 Action Economist posted:Also, DPR isn't a great way to really measure usefulness in Pathfinder I mean it kind of is if you don't forget to factor in things like conditions and chance to hit, the first post you linked suggested using "time to kill" as a metric instead which is just DPR with more steps. Like it's obviously a valid argument that focusing strictly on a single character's damage output is going to fall well behind the effectiveness of a character that takes teamwork and conditions into account for combined group strength, but some of the highest white-room damage-on-paper characters also dish out conditions and help out teammates sort of automatically. Get the fighter to use a flail or a hammer and they'll start knocking targets prone all the time from crits during normal attack chains or from AoOs, and get the rogue or swashbuckler to take You're Next and the Battlecry skill feat for free Demoralize attempts during fights the same way (or have the same fighter take an archetype or a Fearsome/Crushing rune to do both). Because of the way penalties of the same type don't stack and how the frightened condition affects everything (Heroism is the same idea for buffs), flat-footed + frightened means the target is about as debuffed as it can get and most other stuff is just some form of crowd control.
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May 22, 2023 06:12
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Roadie posted:I would bet that's at least in part because the non-5e newbies are coming from the context of MMOs (either directly, or via pop culture osmosis), so it's obvious to them that spellcasters are supposed to do buffs/debuffs and handle the adds. Eh? The FFXIV support classes are all ranged martials and the WoW casters feature two pure DPS classes. At most you have the healers, but that leads to healbot clerics, no people instinctively knowing that wizards are there to buff/debuff.
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May 22, 2023 06:16
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Vanguard Warden posted:I mean it kind of is if you don't forget to factor in things like conditions and chance to hit, the first post you linked suggested using "time to kill" as a metric instead which is just DPR with more steps. To be fair, the extra steps are the point? The whole idea is to compare your DPR numbers to common enemies to see whether you actually hit a better break point. It's just a rephrased version of the conflict between white room char-op and people who think about how it works in actual play that's existed in optimization communities for decades. (But also, I'm saying this as someone on the actual play side of the debate, so I'm all for adding a formalized sanity check to see if damage optimization actually does something useful.)
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May 22, 2023 16:08
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It's useful to point at when people want to understand why their warrior bard is getting lapped by the fighter, but it ignores the fact that every class has things to do that aren't dealing damage and it can account for none of it.
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May 22, 2023 22:47
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Hellioning posted:Eh? The FFXIV support classes are all ranged martials and the WoW casters feature two pure DPS classes. At most you have the healers, but that leads to healbot clerics, no people instinctively knowing that wizards are there to buff/debuff. Buff classes as a concept in MMOs have been mostly dead for decades, in fact.
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May 22, 2023 22:58
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Although Warcraft is attempting it again soon
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May 22, 2023 23:03
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3 Action Economist posted:Although Warcraft is attempting it again soon Yeah we'll see how that goes. The problem is always designing something to be enough of a force multiplier that it's better than bringing another actual DPS.
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May 22, 2023 23:04
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3 Action Economist posted:Although Warcraft is attempting it again soon Wait, really? Tell me more.
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May 22, 2023 23:20
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Failboattootoot posted:Wait, really? Tell me more. Derail, but they're adding a third spec to the new evoker class that buffs damage to everyone around them, and their own damage.
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May 22, 2023 23:26
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For people who are running Pathfinder 2e on Foundry, what modules would you recommend for gameplay/quality of life improvements? (ie: I don't need maps or adventures)
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May 23, 2023 07:15
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Arivia posted:For people who are running Pathfinder 2e on Foundry, what modules would you recommend for gameplay/quality of life improvements? (ie: I don't need maps or adventures) Pathmuncher makes character import from Pathbuilder effortless. https://foundryvtt.com/packages/pathmuncher Pf2e Dailies is pretty good for automating daily preparations https://foundryvtt.com/packages/pf2e-dailies Pf2e Workbench has a bunch of good quality of life stuff in one package. https://foundryvtt.com/packages/xdy-pf2e-workbench Lamuella fucked around with this message at 09:47 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 07:35
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PF2e Companion Compendia is outright required if you have a player with an animal/construct/undead companion or eidolon
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May 23, 2023 07:41
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I am currently setting up a new Foundry PF2e campaign and I've got like forty modules switched on. Sigh.
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May 23, 2023 09:44
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Red Metal posted:PF2e Companion Compendia is outright required if you have a player with an animal/construct/undead companion or eidolon Seconding this one.
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May 23, 2023 09:45
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Megazver posted:I am currently setting up a new Foundry PF2e campaign and I've got like forty modules switched on. Sigh. I have 107  E: Oh I paired some down a bit, only 94 now! 3 Action Economist fucked around with this message at 12:10 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 11:10
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The groups I've played on Foundry with have all really liked having 3D dice you can see roll across the table, I think the one we've used is "Dice So Nice". People can customize their dice (handy when everyone is rolling dice at the same time), and it just seems more satisfying to see something roll vs just having the number pop up. My current GM temporarily disabled the add-on for a session while trying to figure out some issue, and everyone missed having it. Doesn't really make anyone's life easier, but it's fun.
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May 23, 2023 17:39
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boxen posted:The groups I've played on Foundry with have all really liked having 3D dice you can see roll across the table, I think the one we've used is "Dice So Nice". People can customize their dice (handy when everyone is rolling dice at the same time), and it just seems more satisfying to see something roll vs just having the number pop up. My current GM temporarily disabled the add-on for a session while trying to figure out some issue, and everyone missed having it. you can also add custom animations + sound effects to play on natural roll numbers, so if you wanted thomas the tank engine yolo itself at the screen when you roll a natural 1/20 you can do that out of the box.
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May 23, 2023 18:08
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Yeah the groups I’m use Dice So Nice as well. It is uh, nice. Not sure what it’s called but the one that color codes different damage types and adds little “slashing” or “fire” icons is great too, spices up the sidebar.
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May 23, 2023 18:52
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The colours + icons for damage types is the PF2 system itself, not a module
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May 23, 2023 18:56
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Arivia posted:For people who are running Pathfinder 2e on Foundry, what modules would you recommend for gameplay/quality of life improvements? (ie: I don't need maps or adventures) Automated Animations+Sequencer and JB2A (https://www.patreon.com/JB2A/posts ): Automatic animation mapping of spell and attack effects for everything in the game, from swinging axes and swords to fireballs and lightning bolts. Also covers statuses like raging for barbs, overdrive for inventors, etc. Huge bonus to immersion/gameplay fun when you see the effects of your big crits. Health Estimate: Nice way to show players general condition of enemies without having to let them see and metagame around exact HP bars. Drag ruler: Automatically measure potential movement and color code divide in to number of actions needed, based on the selected unit's move speed. HUGE qol bonus when planning out moves. Dice so nice/Dice Tray: Cool chunky 3d dice, as mentioned, makes it feel good when you roll a zillion dice for your big aoe or whatnot. Dice tray adds a UI click button way to easily roll dice combos in place of typing out /roll etc in chat. PF2e Exploit Vulnerability: Essential if you have a player playing thaumaturge. Automates all the vulnerability checking, application, etc portion of the class. PopOut!: Lets you pop various windows out of the main foundry browser tab, so you can keep your character sheet or a GM Journal page always open on a second monitor without covering up the play field. Roll Tracker: Tracks dice so your players can laugh at the guy that rolls way more nat 1s than the others. PF2e workbench: Excellent GM tools for automatically scaling monsters to different levels, other widgets and bobs. Token Action HUD: Lets you roll all the common actions for the selected token without having a sheet open, huge QOL buff
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May 23, 2023 18:59
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There's also a specific PF2e Animations module to fine tune the automated animations stuff.
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May 23, 2023 19:07
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I really like the Show Art module. I'll use it to give my players a pop up of monster art. A lot of the monsters in the Abomination Vaults look great but it's not easy to see the details on the token. https://foundryvtt.com/packages/token-hud-art-button/
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May 23, 2023 19:39
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Arrrthritis posted:you can also add custom animations + sound effects to play on natural roll numbers, so if you wanted thomas the tank engine yolo itself at the screen when you roll a natural 1/20 you can do that out of the box. We also use those effects and it is kinda fun... extra hilarious on "secret" rolls when the GM rolls and we can hear the airhorns and confetti over discord. Gwaihir posted:
As a player this is really nice for gauging how tough an enemy is, and it's also nice as a GM to not have to constantly come up with different ways to say "It's at half health", but it still can be metagamed. Ie there are something like five different levels of hurt (Uninjured, barely injured, injured, badly injured, near death) and the breakpoints are every 20%, so someone good at quick mental math can still get a solid idea of how many HP a creature has based on how far down the scale a given amount of damage takes them. It does add some time before its figured out so it isn't far different than figuring an enemy's AC based on which attacks hit, but it isn't fully metagame-proof. If there's a way to change where the breakpoints are instead of just every 20% (or whatever), it'd be pretty perfect.
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May 23, 2023 20:20
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Scoss posted:-If that tripped enemy tries to stand up or crawl away, Fighters get to attack of opportunity them! (AoO are not ubiquitous anymore, it's a special feature of the Fighter class by default and other martials can acquire it with a feat). The 3-action system and reining in of AoO makes fights less likely to become static melee blobs and you get to think more about tactical movement. Speaking of tactical movement, I really like that the flanking bonus requires you to be on opposite sides of the opponent, not merely both adjacent to them. You really have to think about how to position your melee guys for best effect. Critical weapon effect are awesome too. Like with a flail if you crit your enemy is knocked prone. You just did your normal attack, but now the other guy is going to have to spend and action to stand up on his next turn. Or a hammer that knocks them 10 feet away on crit.
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May 23, 2023 20:28
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boxen posted:If there's a way to change where the breakpoints are instead of just every 20% (or whatever), it'd be pretty perfect. Yeah, it's fully configurable as far as what percentages apply to what labels: 
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May 23, 2023 20:34
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https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sibf?Unleash-More-Heroes-Official-Pathfinder-2nd Demiplane has their character builder in open beta, now, but it's going to be like D&D Beyond where you have to rebuy all your books.
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May 23, 2023 21:03
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3 Action Economist posted:https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sibf?Unleash-More-Heroes-Official-Pathfinder-2nd DoA smdh
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May 23, 2023 21:10
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lol at ever using that when Pathbuilder exists.
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