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Tuxedo Gin posted:Preventing young people from using social media also means that they are totally unaware of what is actually happening in the world except for the spin that their schools and mainstream media puts on things. It means that youth movements are harder to organize and that young people are less likely to be passionate about voting when they turn 18. What exactly are you arguing here
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May 22, 2023 14:00
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Discendo Vox posted:What exactly are you arguing here Can't have the kids snatch all the tickets to your
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May 22, 2023 14:05
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Discendo Vox posted:What exactly are you arguing here Not arguing anything. Just that social media, while extremely bad, has some important functions. People who are wondering who might be behind laws like this, and why both parties support it, may want to think about who is best served by isolating and suppressing the political voices of young people.
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May 22, 2023 14:05
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Preventing young people from using social media also means that they are totally unaware of what is actually happening in the world except for the spin that their schools and mainstream media puts on things. It means that youth movements are harder to organize and that young people are less likely to be passionate about voting when they turn 18. I think this is, at best, a massive exaggeration. Youth movements - including ones with contrarian themes that contradicted the mainstream media's preferred narratives - existed before 2006. Younger folks finding inspiration for political stances their parents and teachers opposed isn't some new 21st-century development; it's the way things have been for generations. Let's not idealize social media too hard, now.
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May 22, 2023 14:47
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Victar posted:Today I learned that there's a bipartisan bill in the works to ban kids under 13 from social media apps, and require parental consent for kids age 13-17 to use social media apps. Youremother posted:But prospective Something Awful users would have to worry about proving they're adults, regardless of the average user age of this site. There's no way to prove that I'm not a four month old with incredible luck smacking a keyboard right now. That only applies to websites that use an "algorithmic recommendation system" to determine what users see and collect personal information (name, location, or other specific data that could be used to tie it to a specific individual) of its users as a requirement for access. Unless SA implements a much more complicated method of organizing post order via algorithm or starts requiring posters to use their real names, then that would not apply to SA.
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May 22, 2023 14:49
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IT BURNS posted:
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May 22, 2023 15:05
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Not arguing anything. Just that social media, while extremely bad, has some important functions. People who are wondering who might be behind laws like this, and why both parties support it, may want to think about who is best served by isolating and suppressing the political voices of young people. So you're arguing a conspiracy by both parties to "isolate and suppress the political voices of young people" by putting age restrictions on social media?
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May 22, 2023 15:31
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Discendo Vox posted:So you're arguing a conspiracy by both parties to "isolate and suppress the political voices of young people" by putting age restrictions on social media? It makes sense when you remember that the primary function of both parties is to serve the interests of capital.
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May 22, 2023 15:37
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Capital would probably rather that social media continue to influence and advertise to as many young people as possible
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May 22, 2023 15:51
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I don’t think it’s a conspiracy because they’re all very open about it, but I don’t think most American politicians have a lot of use for the voices of young people. I think they like kids to feel disengaged and powerless, or they like their energy channeled in ways that make predictable outcomes likely. Didn’t the fbi investigate kids who organized protests on instagram in 2020 because they thought russia might be influencing them to do it somehow? I swear I read that in one of these threads at that time, but I can’t find it now.
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May 22, 2023 15:53
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haveblue posted:Floppy disks are still big in certain industries where you have a lot of legacy computer-controlled equipment, where “legacy” means “only works when plugged into a certain kind of control board that doesn’t have Windows drivers at all because it hasn’t been manufactured since 1987” I felt officially Old when I told a grad student that they could not plug a thumb drive to transfer their data from an IBM PS/2 which ran a spectrophotometer, for one thing because it did not have any USB ports. When I suggested using the floppy, I got a "oh, I've heard of these but never actually used one."
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May 22, 2023 15:59
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the_steve posted:It makes sense when you remember that the primary function of both parties is to serve the interests of capital. haveblue posted:Capital would probably rather that social media continue to influence and advertise to as many young people as possible Yeah I don't think capital wants to put a stranglehold on social media because they're afraid of youth revolution lol If you think these laws are a conspiracy of both parties to attack young people then I'm sorry but I've got a certificate here that says you have donkey brains
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May 22, 2023 16:04
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Professor Beetus posted:Yeah I don't think capital wants to put a stranglehold on social media because they're afraid of youth revolution lol You say that now, but the next great Tiktok dance was about to end capitalism before it was smothered in its cradle.
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May 22, 2023 16:10
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If I wanted to read a nefarious purpose into it, rather than just a stupid moral panic, it would be that conservatives hate seeing queer people being happy on Tik Tok and are mortified of kids seeing them or gathering there. And give the current circumstances I don't find that terribly unlikely.
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May 22, 2023 16:12
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Mendrian posted:If I wanted to read a nefarious purpose into it, rather than just a stupid moral panic, it would be that conservatives hate seeing queer people being happy on Tik Tok and are mortified of kids seeing them or gathering there. And give the current circumstances I don't find that terribly unlikely. Probably the same group authoring the anti-trans and abortion bills, it'll end up being alec or something obvious like that.
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May 22, 2023 16:18
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The Labor Department says that Iowa's recent child labor law reform does not comply with federal labor child labor law and can't be enforced. The primary issues it violated were by allowing kids to work up to 6 hours per day during a school day, which would be up to 30 hours per week, but federal law limits people under 17 from working more than 18 hours per week during school weeks and 3 hours per day on school days. They also say that Iowa's law approving "non-incidental work in meat freezers, industrial laundries and light assembly work" for kids under 17 fall under existing categories of labor banned by federal law. quote:In the letter, Seema Nanda, solicitor of labor, and Jessica Looman, principal deputy administrator at the Wage and Hour Division, wrote that states “cannot nullify federal requirements by enacting less protective standards.” Iowa employers and minor workers would still required to follow the regulations set out in the Fair Labor Standards Act, even if state labor laws change. The author of the bill in Iowa says he knew that some of the provisions might have clashed with federal law when he drafted it, but thought that nobody would complain about it. Also, he assumed that the federal government would allow Iowa to violate federal law because they keep allowing all these states to violate federal marijuana law. quote:“If you’re outraged on this bill because high schoolers will be able to work hours that contradict federal law, then why did you try to introduce legislation to legalize recreational use of marijuana?” Dickey said in April. “Or support a gubernatorial candidate that had legalizing marijuana as one of her main platforms, where legalizing marijuana is clearly breaking federal law and so much more severe?” https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1660656772258881540
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May 22, 2023 16:19
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Democratic Senator Tom Carper (D-DE) just announced he is retiring. Carper and Feinstein were two of the "moderately more conservative than their states" Senators from solid blue states. So, it appears they will likely both be replaced by someone at least marginally more left-wing in 2024.
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May 22, 2023 16:22
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Professor Beetus posted:If you think these laws are a conspiracy of both parties to attack young people then I'm sorry but I've got a certificate here that says you have donkey brains  That's setting aside the fact that I don't even see why donors would support the measure; they probably like having the outlet to target impressionable young customers with hefty amounts of user data backing them up. Not to mention the formidable tech lobby that is definitely dead set against the regulation. It would be interesting to know who is supporting the drafting of these bills. It piggybacks on a legitimate public sentiment, but it's probably not just happening because parents want it. I wonder if it could be backed by an industry that sees social media as eating into their business - maybe traditional media, which would rather kids be watching their streaming shows instead of TikTok? Hell, maybe it's the health insurance lobby, tired of paying for antidepressants for teens.  Professor Beetus posted:Probably the same group authoring the anti-trans and abortion bills, it'll end up being alec or something obvious like that. Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 16:26 on May 22, 2023 |
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May 22, 2023 16:24
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I AM GRANDO posted:Can’t it take years or decades for Creutzfeldt–Jakob to show symptoms in humans? It would be a long time before we knew whether this were an isolated case or whether it were capable of jumping to humans, wouldn’t it? I presume the cow version moves faster because they’re all killed and eaten so quickly. I can only now finally give blood because I was potentially exposed to it in the 80s. Prions are scary as gently caress.
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May 22, 2023 16:29
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Tuxedo Gin posted:Preventing young people from using social media also means that they are totally unaware of what is actually happening in the world except for the spin that their schools and mainstream media puts on things. It means that youth movements are harder to organize and that young people are less likely to be passionate about voting when they turn 18. They failed with drugs, cigarettes, porn, and alcohol - they will fail even harder with something that is non-physical. Unless, of course, the goal is to simply disallow things so that some teens can be selectively punished at whim by authorities.
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May 22, 2023 16:31
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Appropriate for the subject of restricting teen social media use, Ezra Klein's podcast today is about the relationship between social media and teen depression. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-ezra-klein-show/id1548604447 Ezra Klein posted:We’re in the midst of a serious teen mental health crisis. The number of teenagers and young adults with clinical depression more than doubled between 2011 and 2021. The suicide rate for teenagers nearly doubled from 2007 to 2019, and tripled for 10- to 14-year- olds in particular. According to the C.D.C., nearly 25 percent of teenage girls made a suicide plan in 2021. What’s going on in the lives of teenagers that has produced such a startling uptick?
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May 22, 2023 16:37
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Mendrian posted:If I wanted to read a nefarious purpose into it, rather than just a stupid moral panic, it would be that conservatives hate seeing queer people being happy on Tik Tok and are mortified of kids seeing them or gathering there. And give the current circumstances I don't find that terribly unlikely. Honestly, this was my first thought, too, especially with these bills popping up all over at once. Mellow Seas posted:Twenge You will never convince me this isn't another social media service. 
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May 22, 2023 16:41
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So, has anyone actually researched any of the bills at all, or is it just people projecting their prior beliefs onto them? It would be good to actually look at the legislation and testimony in red and blue states. Here's a Brookings article describing the contrasting approaches taken by Republican and Democratic state legislatures. It notes opposition from the primary tech giant front group, NetChoice, on both models. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2023/05/04/how-congress-can-protect-kids-online/ Other tech lobbying groups opposed to all regulations include the Computer & Communications Industry Association and the magnificently newspeaky Chamber of Progress, which appears have been spun up to target Dems. edit: Here's the CA bill that was passed into law: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB2273 Here's a Maryland one that died in committee: https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/mgawebsite/Legislation/Details/hb0254?ys=2023RS Here's the Utah legislation: https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/SB0152.html https://le.utah.gov/~2023/bills/static/HB0311.html Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 16:47 on May 22, 2023 |
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May 22, 2023 16:44
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Inferior Third Season posted:Unless all social media is restricted to hardwired terminals that can only be found in certain locations with bouncers that check ID, there is no technical solution that will actually prevent young people from using social media while allowing adults to do so. Yeah, but that's just the standard anti-regulation argument where "It won't work 100% so why bother." I think most people pushing it are aware of that and just believe it will reduce abuse in the same way that they support not selling whiskey and cigarettes to kids even if they don't support full-on prohibition of either and understand some will get it anyway. (Note: Not saying anything about how well such laws work, just that lots of people fully support them knowing they're not fullproof.). That doesn't change the rest of what you say about it being harder due to the mechanics of what's being restricted in this time, though. Or it just being a moral panic pushed by people who don't know much about the topic at hand just that it's popular with the kids and lots of scary news stories are out about it.
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May 22, 2023 16:50
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Killer robot posted:Or it just being a moral panic pushed by people who don't know much about the topic at hand just that it's popular with the kids and lots of scary news stories are out about it. It might be a moral panic. The more conspiracy oriented part of my brain suspects that various more conservative organizations basically don't want social media to exist, and look at non-implementable laws that would crash the social media industry as features, not bugs -- these laws thus would be intended as poison pills against instagram, tiktok, facebook, etc.
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May 22, 2023 16:53
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Labor Department says that Iowa's recent child labor law reform does not comply with federal labor child labor law and can't be enforced. From the Desk of Kim Reynolds, Governor of Iowa and convicted drunk driver (expunged): 
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May 22, 2023 17:06
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Mendrian posted:If I wanted to read a nefarious purpose into it, rather than just a stupid moral panic, it would be that conservatives hate seeing queer people being happy on Tik Tok and are mortified of kids seeing them or gathering there. And give the current circumstances I don't find that terribly unlikely. This seems like the easy answer to me - at least from conservatives championing it - and in line with the push to ban queer-themed books from libraries, schools, etc. and force teachers to never mention anything queer-adjacent ever. Isolate queer youth from anything that might let them feel less alone in the world, and any prospective social groups in kind, and pat themselves on the back for 'eradicating' the lgbtq menace via forcing everyone into closeted misery. Any liberal support of similar age restrictions is probably coming from that tangential perspective of "all the kids are SUPER depressed now" (among other things, I'm sure) but addressing that is going to require something more nuanced than "just keep them all off social media". Social media is depressing, and a lot of that is because it renders immediately visible in precise detail all of the lovely parts of the world they stand to inherit. That's in addition to real concerns o over things like body image issues exacerbated by influencers and such, but that's also a problem that's existed for longer than even the internet itself; it's just a new flavor of photoshopped magazine covers, and we never 'solved' that problem either. Social media broadly has some severe flaws, owed at least in part to things like staunch libertarian mindsets of the people who create/run them as platforms, but burning it all down has some real drawbacks as well.
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May 22, 2023 17:06
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IT BURNS posted:People rightfully flipped the gently caress out by ID.me, because it was a shitshow that deserved all the ire heaped upon it. I did this too as the my family's "young whippersnapper techsuport" . dont know how old people are suppose to do it by themsleves. hell doing it for myself was a hassel too and its why I bought a cheap flatbed scanner to scan docs instead of smart phone cam bs.
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May 22, 2023 17:17
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Mellow Seas posted:Appropriate for the subject of restricting teen social media use, Ezra Klein's podcast today is about the relationship between social media and teen depression. I think that notion is complete horseshit. They're only using smartphones and social media as a scapegoat so they don't have to look in the loving mirror. Depression is on the rise because previous generations have systematically stripped the wealth of society and transferred it upwards, stripped the planet's resources to produce more wealth for the super-rich, and are leaving the youth a planet with an unsolvable climate crisis which will cripple or radically alter civilization in negative ways.
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May 22, 2023 17:27
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side stepping the whataboutthechildren('s mentalhealth) issue, I still think the best way to moderate the firehose flood of content for the internet is a account creation fee. though musk's birdshit show might be a major blow to my theory.
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May 22, 2023 17:32
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PhazonLink posted:though musk's birdshit show might be a major blow to my theory. Twitter is still free, paying just confers additional benefits
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May 22, 2023 17:38
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I think that notion is complete horseshit. They're only using smartphones and social media as a scapegoat so they don't have to look in the loving mirror. Depression is on the rise because previous generations have systematically stripped the wealth of society and transferred it upwards, stripped the planet's resources to produce more wealth for the super-rich, and are leaving the youth a planet with an unsolvable climate crisis which will cripple or radically alter civilization in negative ways. Wealth concentration and gutting of the safety net has been happening for 30 years, and we didn't see these kinds of effects on kids. We didn't see any increase in 2009-2010 during the worst economic conditions in four generations. These figures have been skyrocketing since 2012. Teens with major depressive episode in the previous year: (Male blue, female black)  US Gini coefficient:  Teen smartphone use:  (2015 blue, 2019 black, 2021 gray) I actually kind of hate that graph but for some reason I can't find a longer trend for overall youth smartphone use, I just keep getting those stupid loving age breakdowns. In lieu of that here's a graph for overall smartphone usage (all ages): 
Mellow Seas fucked around with this message at 17:54 on May 22, 2023 |
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May 22, 2023 17:46
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I think that notion is complete horseshit. They're only using smartphones and social media as a scapegoat so they don't have to look in the loving mirror. Depression is on the rise because previous generations have systematically stripped the wealth of society and transferred it upwards, stripped the planet's resources to produce more wealth for the super-rich, and are leaving the youth a planet with an unsolvable climate crisis which will cripple or radically alter civilization in negative ways. Honestly it's probably lots of things. You covered the big one, but I'd be shocked if social media didn't magnify the usual social pressure cooker effects of high school by making drama harder to step away from. Kinda like the 24 hour news cycle, now that I think about it.
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May 22, 2023 17:49
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Inferior Third Season posted:Unless all social media is restricted to hardwired terminals that can only be found in certain locations with bouncers that check ID, there is no technical solution that will actually prevent young people from using social media while allowing adults to do so. No law will be 100% effective at preventing the thing it outlaws; that doesn't mean we shouldn't bother with having laws against stuff. And the bill doesn't punish teens for being on social media, it punishes social media for letting teens on. There's nothing in it that allows for authorities to punish teens. The actual text of the bill has been linked here, we don't have to talk about stuff that isn't in it. Hieronymous Alloy posted:It might be a moral panic. The more conspiracy oriented part of my brain suspects that various more conservative organizations basically don't want social media to exist, and look at non-implementable laws that would crash the social media industry as features, not bugs -- these laws thus would be intended as poison pills against instagram, tiktok, facebook, etc. As a general rule of thumb, you shouldn't listen to the more conspiracy oriented part of your brain, because conspiracy theories are defined by using distrust and suspicion as an excuse to make up stories from whole cloth without any supporting evidence. I don't see how this is a non-implementable poison pill bill. But even if it crashed the industry, I'm not sure I'd actually care? Hating algorithmically-driven rage engines isn't a uniquely conservative stance. Hell, conservatives love social media, especially now that they're making inroads on taking it over themselves.
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May 22, 2023 17:50
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Mendrian posted:If I wanted to read a nefarious purpose into it, rather than just a stupid moral panic, it would be that conservatives hate seeing queer people being happy on Tik Tok and are mortified of kids seeing them or gathering there. And give the current circumstances I don't find that terribly unlikely. It probably a combination of this, and general old people freak out about about what they've heard about CHINA, medically dangerous Tik Tok Trends(tide pods, etc.), stories about doing crimes for Tik Tok, and just generally not getting it. It's the modern day equivalent of you mom being terrified that someone was going to hack everything if you left your computer plugged in to the 56k dial up modem. I swear out country is suffering from an absolute whammy of a mix of gerentocracy, Covid related brain issues, and the social right's winning of an inch making them sprint for that mile. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The Labor Department says that Iowa's recent child labor law reform does not Did anyone ask him if that's really the story he's going with, instead of just admitting that he didn't think about possible legal implications with the template law he got from some donor?
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May 22, 2023 17:57
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Iowa's legislators are 4-month-a-year part timers anyway, so it's not a high bar for expertise.
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May 22, 2023 18:01
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I posted three bills, two that passed and one that didn't, from both red and blue states, with direct links to their texts and to hearing materials. Those might be a good place for our conversation to be more informed.
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May 22, 2023 18:04
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Anecdotal ofc but teenagers I interact with tend to be way more concerned about normal teenage poo poo which is amplified by social media for sure. Online adults who are more political than average, otoh, think teenagers are concerned about climate, capitalism, shootings, et because that reinforces their own concerns
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May 22, 2023 18:15
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Anecdotal ofc but teenagers I interact with tend to be way more concerned about normal teenage poo poo which is amplified by social media for sure. Online adults who are more political than average, otoh, think teenagers are concerned about climate, capitalism, shootings, et because that reinforces their own concerns Right. I'm sure there are things related to world events that contribute, but most 14-year olds are not thinking about killing themselves because of capitalism or carbon emissions. It would also mean that teenage girls are vastly more likely to be suicidal over capitalism/carbon emissions than anyone else. If anything, I think the fact that the increase has been so disproportionately concentrated in wealthier white teenage girls indicates that it is most likely social media amplification of normal teenage poo poo.
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May 22, 2023 18:38
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Mellow Seas posted:Appropriate for the subject of restricting teen social media use, Ezra Klein's podcast today is about the relationship between social media and teen depression. Depression is going up among a lot of demographics, particularly disenfranchised groups, and is now at record highs, according to Gallup: quote:The percentage of U.S. adults who report having been diagnosed with depression at some point in their lifetime has reached 29.0%, nearly 10 percentage points higher than in 2015. The percentage of Americans who currently have or are being treated for depression has also increased, to 17.8%, up about seven points over the same period. Both rates are the highest recorded by Gallup since it began measuring depression using the current form of data collection in 2015.   While social media might have some bearing on younger people's rates of depression, I think the rise among other demographic shows that a lot of other factors are contributing as well, particularly those related to the pandemic.
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May 22, 2023 18:40
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