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Fivemarks posted:I like Wing, but I never got what Treize's point was, or what made him so honorable. He couldn’t have made it any clearer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skdsahHBR4Q
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May 23, 2023 01:02
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Treize's deal is honestly fairly simple (if completely insane). He's a guy so good at everything and so earnest in his love of the rest of humanity that the sheer lack of challenge in his life broke his brain, and now he's obsessed with giving people opportunities to beat him in a fair contest. So he loves war because it's an extreme, complex, and deadly challenge, but if someone brings about an age of pacifism, he would be delighted that they've beaten him and proved their moral/intellectual superiority. Anyone who defeats him by any means would both help prove that he's human and clearly demonstrate that they've advanced humanity. He hates the automation of warfare because it lets incompetents and parasites exert power they haven't earned, and thus stifle the development of humanity.
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May 23, 2023 01:12
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War and Pieces posted:In the narrow European focus they had a very flimsy point that professional armies of upper class twats prevented the sort of total war of the Napoleonic era, at the same time justifying their existence for about 100 years. That's not for lack of trying though. The Franco-Prussian war saw 900,000 casualties in half a year, a horrendous bloodletting. But one of the two sides collapsed and the war ended after 6 months in the Franco-Prussian war. But both sides were still capable of years of additional slaughter after the first six months of WW1.
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May 23, 2023 01:36
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Treize holds both the views that war is bad but also that soldiers are honorable and tragic figures. These are not necessarily contradictory. He values the lives of soldiers more than anyone else (shown by his final exchange with Wufei) but he also thinks that war should be fought with soldiers instead of Mobile Dolls so that humans will suffer loss and thus hate wars instead of getting desensitized to them. Now if you want to know why he spends the first arc of the show killing pacifists, the answer is a very stupid "he wants a war so bad that no one will want to wage war again" and he intends to pay for starting that war with his life, leading to a new era of peace after he, the villain, is defeated. There's some room for debate on how much of this plan is something he actually wants to do from the start and how much of it is Romefeller forcing his hand (first because they want to take over the Alliance, then because they create Mobile Dolls) but it does make some sense. I hold the theory that absolutely no one working for Treize knows what Treize's goals are, and if they do, they don't care, they just follow him because have you HEARD the man talking? He's so charismatic that even when he concedes defeat to Romefeller and they place him under house arrest, part of OZ spins off into the Treize faction and they proceed to fight and die in his name, completely independently of him. Whether this helps to sell you the point that Treize can get away with a poorly-thought out goal or further convinces you that Wing is nonsense, is up to you. Personally I'm 50/50 on it but I'll take a show that is fresh, entertaining and constantly moving even if it defies credulity some (or most) of the time. I also really like how it does geopolitics (and whatever the equivalent of earth+rest of the solar system for geo is) but that's a different subject.
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May 23, 2023 01:47
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GimmickMan posted:
An odd and qualified "working with," but my impression was Zechs and Treize's fight at the end was all part of The Plan, too. Zechs had no real intention of dropping Libra on Earth, it was just the mother of all shocks and greatest scare of all time that Treize hoped would end war forever. Wanna say Treize even has a line somewhere about how Zechs is his most trusted or loyal friend/follower. I need to re-watch Wing. I've always thought Une was a good example of someone who didn't quite understand Treize, though. We've all seen the type, at least in media. No matter how extreme the leader is, they have an even mor extreme follower because they love the leader more than the leader's ideals. Une has to be "two people" because she's so torn on what Treize even wants. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 02:47 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 02:44
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GimmickMan posted:Treize holds both the views that war is bad but also that soldiers are honorable and tragic figures. These are not necessarily contradictory. He values the lives of soldiers more than anyone else (shown by his final exchange with Wufei) but he also thinks that war should be fought with soldiers instead of Mobile Dolls so that humans will suffer loss and thus hate wars instead of getting desensitized to them. In his case, I think that his whole 'use war to make peace' thing is particularly propped up by his weird humanitarian egotism. He believes himself to be the ultimate warlord, and therefore a perfect challenge for those who want to end war. If they can beat him, everyone else will be easy.
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May 23, 2023 02:50
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Treize’s attitude re: mobile dolls is basically the same as Kirk in that episode of the original Star Trek where the enterprise finds a pair of planets who have devised a “clean war” where their governments both use computers to simulate battles and assign a curated selection of casualties to euthanize, and handily avoid all the maiming and random horror and brutality of a real war. If you make killing clean and hands-off and easy then all you’ve done is make people more willing to do it without reflecting.
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May 23, 2023 03:46
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the fact that having living soldiers means having a cause solid enough that you can at least convince people to die for it also seems important to him. the bar there is set pretty low but mobile dolls remove the bar entirely, while probably his best argument on the subject involved humans using their individual judgement to turn coat on the drone operators.
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May 23, 2023 04:46
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Warmachine posted:It's real hard for me to think of anyone who could match Rau pound-for-pound on the madness chart. There really is something to be said for the man. Usually when you have a villain whose plan is 'end all life' they are comically one dimensional. Evil for the sake of evil, or doing it in a moment of spite after being beaten, or as part of some master plan as become God or whatever. Rau is that 'gently caress you all' spite monster, but rather than be a desperation move as he is losing, it is just his master plan. Oh, you created me as a defective copy of yourself with a short lifespan? Well I guess I'll kill your entire species. It does help that the proverbial mask doesn't slip at all until the last few episodes. You are left wondering whst is up with this guy, what is his master plan until he just starts chewing the scenery in delight about how he arranged the most extensive murder-suicide in history. That and the fact that Kira doesn't even get an 'Even so' against him.
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May 23, 2023 07:44
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Caros posted:There really is something to be said for the man. Like I said a few pages ago, end of SEED is the best part and Rau is a huge part of that. What a fantastic villain. Even SEED haters seem to all love and respect him as a character. That's an interesting point Kira doesn't get a good counterargument. And remember Patrick Zala's last words to his son were imploring him to continue his mission of genocide. With Azrael bouncing around, you can feel that hatred and enmity that Rau feels makes humans worthy of eradication while getting almost nothing in the way of "but we're still worth saving" responses. At least from my memory. It's been a while. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUYZotTQr3E&t=113s I really wanna know why it is such a central theme in so much Japanese media. (Maybe more than just Japanese media but that's mostly what I consume.) The antagonist or villain is someone or something that questions the value of human life or existence due to all the pain and suffering and war in the world. Our hereos respond by saying "that's just life, we gotta deal with it." I never found it a terribly satisfying response, to be frank. Not here, not in Final Fantasy X, not in Evangelion. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 08:14 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 08:12
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Caros posted:There really is something to be said for the man. Honestly, I think that's one of the things that works against Kira as a character, and it makes his messianic turn in Destiny even more awkward. I talk about it just about every time this comes up but shonen fights tend to be philosophical arguments as punchups. The winner of the argument isn't always the guy who wins the physical fight (for a Gundam example relevant to this page, Trieze being killed by Wufei was his victory, not Wufei's), but the debate's victor is usually portrayed as the one who triumphed overall. In SEED, Rau is the winner of the debate. Kira doesn't even get in a punch. But at the same time, Kira wins the physical fight, and that's the one that matters from a practical prospective. It makes the setting feel even more cynical than the UC, which is already pretty bleak, because in the UC there's always suggestions of the possibility of a better tomorrow, no matter how distant. With SEED, it's just delaying the inevitable collapse. And the thing is, there was an obvious route to have Rau be refuted right there, with Flay sacrificing her life to save Kira rather than just getting killed to make Kira sad. Shows someone changing, gives a reason to believe things could get better, and punches a hole in Rau's argument without completely undermining it. But instead, Kira just kills Rau without defeating him. (If we're bringing up Eva's prospective, the focus in that is generally that without pain, we can't have the good things in life, and the game is worth the candle. Yui and Fuyutsuki both get lines about that before the ending. Yui's “Anywhere can be paradise as long as you have the will to live. After all, you are alive, so you will always have the chance to be happy" is the more optimistic spin, but I think Fuyutsuki's "I prefer a world where people live, no matter how stained with sin" gets closer to the heart of the matter in the show.)
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May 23, 2023 09:16
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GimmickMan posted:Treize holds both the views that war is bad but also that soldiers are honorable and tragic figures. These are not necessarily contradictory. He values the lives of soldiers more than anyone else (shown by his final exchange with Wufei) but he also thinks that war should be fought with soldiers instead of Mobile Dolls so that humans will suffer loss and thus hate wars instead of getting desensitized to them. It's basically this, yeah. He is, in large part, basically just anime Big Boss from MGS - the same reverence for the honor of soldiers and hatred of the machine that grinds them up and kills them for material profit, the same disgust at attempts to dehumanize the act of war, the same direct conflict with a world-spanning organization of elites trying to consolidate their power, the same hypnotic charisma and legendary abilities that causes entire factions of soldiers to gather to him to die in his name, and the same willingness to martyr himself for his cause.
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May 23, 2023 09:25
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chiasaur11 posted:Honestly, I think that's one of the things that works against Kira as a character, and it makes his messianic turn in Destiny even more awkward. That summary of Eva is good, thank you. I think it expresses why these heroic arguments always fail to convince me. It's like telling children they gotta eat veggies before they get dessert, only as a solution to life's problems and a justification for pain. Doesn't really work to me. On the general topic of shounen philosophy battles, I've always liked Rurouni Kenshin and specifically the exchange between Kenshin and Yahiko after defeating Shishio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5zY4SJ9kL0 Yahiko, being young and confused and seeing how there were some good people on Shishio's side, wants to assuage his guilt at their pain by saying "well, we were right..." And Kenshin shuts him down, pointing out that "winning means I'm right" was precisely why they had to stop Shishio. It's a very unique moment I've not seen in other shounen, stressing how victory in combat means nothing about victory in morals. SEED didn't have much time for that, I suppose.
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May 23, 2023 10:28
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NikkolasKing posted:That summary of Eva is good, thank you. I think it expresses why these heroic arguments always fail to convince me. It's like telling children they gotta eat veggies before they get dessert, only as a solution to life's problems and a justification for pain. Doesn't really work to me. It's not so much that you gotta eat veggies before dessert as that, if you're gonna eat, the possibility of dessert also means the possibility of veggies. Good doesn't necessitate bad, but it necessitates the possibility of bad. (It's part of why Mari is thematically important, believe it or not. She doesn't like pain, but she likes what she gains in return enough that the pain is, in her view, a fair price.)
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May 23, 2023 11:26
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Of course sometimes the morality ultimately comes down to something relatively simple where the villain(or at least one of the villains) arguably on a technical level has a good reason for doing what they are but how they're trying to reach that goal is just too vile to permit and thus must be opposed by the heroes, Imagawa has often used that approach to great effect, a particularly good example of this was in Shin Mazinger where Doctor Hell's ultimate goal of conquering the world by obtaining Photon Power so he can in turn save it from the inevitable return of the Myceaneans is undermined by the fact that he's an egotistical psychopath willing to reach his goal no matter how many must die to accomplish it, or to use a Gundam example Master Asia's intended use for the Devil Gundam
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May 23, 2023 12:16
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NikkolasKing posted:That summary of Eva is good, thank you. I think it expresses why these heroic arguments always fail to convince me. It's like telling children they gotta eat veggies before they get dessert, only as a solution to life's problems and a justification for pain. Doesn't really work to me. If it's physically painful for you to eat vegetables, you should probably see a doctor
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May 23, 2023 12:37
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chiasaur11 posted:Honestly, I think that's one of the things that works against Kira as a character, and it makes his messianic turn in Destiny even more awkward. I fully agree. It makes Rau a better villain, but weakens Kira substantially because it drives home that he doesn't have any real moral or intellectual backing for anything he does. The end of the duel in particular shows Kira's convictions to be hollow. His turn to violent pacifism in the latter half of the show is meant to be his 'answer' for the conflict of wanting to fight to protect people, but believing killing to only further perpetuate the issue. But as soon as he finds himself backed into a corner, you better believe he goes straight for Rau's cockpit. This culminates with the 'Cagali is crying' bullshit from destiny where it becomes clear that he is a superpowered manchild where the only reason he isn't a mass murderer is because of his ubermench status and the fact that his mecha is too OP for others to handle. What I'm saying is that shin should have wrecked the hypocrite and stayed the destiny protagonist.
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May 23, 2023 17:46
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The "Rau destroyed Kira in the debate!" take has lived a really long time, but I don't really agree that that was the show's intended message from that episode at all. Rau dunks on Kira and yells about how humans are terrible monsters who do awful things and deserve to die, and Kira - who is currently struggling to survive against an insanely deadly opponent - has no immediate witty response. However, the episode itself cuts Rau's dunking on Kira with shots that directly refute Rau's point - a rogue no name officer shooting Patrick Zala dead because he doesn't want to let Patrick kill all life on earth and Athrun and Cagalli - a natural and a coordinator - working together to disable the laser's reactor. The show is very clearly making the point that Rau is wrong and there is good in humanity, it's just not doing so by having Kira rhetorically own Rau.
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May 23, 2023 18:15
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Kanos posted:The "Rau destroyed Kira in the debate!" take has lived a really long time, but I don't really agree that that was the show's intended message from that episode at all. Agreed. With this, Badgiruel standing in opposition to Azrael, and even the bits of Yzak's mom being thrown in to show the Council breaking from Zala's actions, there's enough material in the final episode(s) that I felt supported Kira's optimism. It's just hard to balance out that dissatisfaction when the show can't refine it into a rebuttal for Kira. I do think Destiny sours it for me more just because he takes no active role in helping build the future he was fighting for, instead just running the orphanage in obscurity until his hand is forced by a conflict that ends up orders of magnitude worse.
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May 23, 2023 18:53
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Rau did effectively destroy Kira with facts and logic. You're correct though that the actual argument is refuted by the show, although it could be argued that the events of Destiny refute the refutation. There is a world where this makes Kira a more interesting character, someone with deep convictions about peace, but zero persuasive ability not borne out the end of a gun. We do not live in that world.
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May 23, 2023 18:54
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Gaius Marius posted:Rau did effectively destroy Kira with facts and logic. You're correct though that the actual argument is refuted by the show, although it could be argued that the events of Destiny refute the refutation. There is a world where this makes Kira a more interesting character, someone with deep convictions about peace, but zero persuasive ability not borne out the end of a gun. We do not live in that world. While Destiny is a terribly written mess, I actually like the infamous "But Cagalli is crying!" scene because it's a direct callback to Kira getting completely verbally flummoxed by Rau. In that scene, Athrun makes a ton of perfectly reasonable points about how Kira and the Archangel crew's appearance on the battlefield is bad because it's only creating more confusion and preventing a speedy resolution to the conflict. There are ways to argue against Athrun's points - that a speedy resolution that arrives at the wrong conclusion isn't actually a good thing, that the Archangel causing more confusion on that particular battlefield is precisely the point because they're trying to get the ORB forces to question their orders and stop fighting, and so on - but Kira has the rhetorical skills of a block of wood so the best he can come up with on the fly is an incredibly awkward verbal pratfall. Cagalli is crying because she's watching her dream die, and her dream was ORB living in peace and not being sucked into more pointless hell wars, so Cagalli crying is a reason for Kira to fight.
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May 23, 2023 19:07
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I love that ever since 00 ended they've been regularly coming out with minor variations on suits in the Exia line to make extremely expensive action figures of for a committed fanbase of hardcore Astraea/Exia/00 lovers. Nobody has given 00 any thought since like a week after the movie came out but every six months they're just like, "oh yeah, the Exia Replica Repair was briefly upgraded with an experimental sword. Here's a toy of that. 400 dollars."
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May 23, 2023 20:08
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Ok but have you considered beeeg sord?
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May 23, 2023 20:19
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Rau decidedly does not have facts and logic on his side but I did think this response to Kira was probably the most thought-provoking: Kira You don't understand anything else! Rau: Of course. After all, people can only understand what they've experienced. A person who has known nothing but abuse and hatred in their lives...can we expect them to have anything but the views held by Rau? I'm not gonna get into the origin of morality here but I would hope most folks recognize that, even if it's possible to rise above that, such a person would be a saint and the exception. Rau's and Kira's experiences re totally different. If I'm remembering tight, the same person "made" them both, correct? Rau was the "failure" clone of the selfish prick while Kira was the Perfect Coordinator? Again, been a long time.
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May 23, 2023 20:59
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Rau and Kira were made by the same guy I'm fairly sure. Rau is fairly well refuted in the episode as stated above by one nameless normal guy not being willing to go through with blasting Earth and being willing to shoot his leader over it, as well as the entire Cagalli and Athrun subplot. The main problem is that he's only really confronted meaningfully face to face by Kira, who is so bad at trying to make any sort of counterargument or refute anything Rau says that it makes Kira look like a chump, especially when he's immediately willing to drop his no killing principles when confronted with someone actually a threat to him in combat. It muddles the conflict between the two when there are clear responses to Rau's points and world view, but the person he's put up against for the final confrontation is too incompetent to bring them up and just screams you're wrong over and over without actually saying anything of substance. Normally yeah, there's no need to engage with Rau because he's a genocidal maniac, but the Cosmic Era is such a shithole that Rau actually does have some ground to stand on especially when he's willing to acknowledge his own views are warped by his experiences and life. So it just doesn't feel satisfying that Kira tries to engage with and refute him, but fails miserably.
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May 23, 2023 21:19
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War and Pieces fucked around with this message at 22:47 on May 23, 2023 |
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May 23, 2023 22:43
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Rau is shown to be wrong by the show about Humanity being cruel, resorting to violence, and in general being hopeless and not worth saving. Rau is also shown to be (somewhat) right in the fact that Kira at that moment could in fact not facts & logic himself out of the cycle of violence and had to kill Rau to stop him. The argument Kira seemingly tried to make about it all turned out to be mostly correct, like mentioned before with the actions of all the others even if Kira himself had to resort to violence as well. Destiny Kira however seems to have taken the end result of him being forced to stop (kill) Rau and it working out, into him being right in general: The only thing stopping a bad person with a Mobile Suit, is a good Kira with a Mobile Suit. I'm obviously also joking but Destiny really did do a number on SEED in a lot of ways. Zedd fucked around with this message at 00:06 on May 24, 2023 |
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May 24, 2023 00:04
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Destiny's greatest sin, apart from, like, the entire second half, is making SEED worse.
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May 24, 2023 00:14
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Weighing its crimes against how much I like Shinn Asuka: ⚖️
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May 24, 2023 00:48
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Kanos posted:While Destiny is a terribly written mess, I actually like the infamous "But Cagalli is crying!" scene because it's a direct callback to Kira getting completely verbally flummoxed by Rau. In that scene, Athrun makes a ton of perfectly reasonable points about how Kira and the Archangel crew's appearance on the battlefield is bad because it's only creating more confusion and preventing a speedy resolution to the conflict. There are ways to argue against Athrun's points - that a speedy resolution that arrives at the wrong conclusion isn't actually a good thing, that the Archangel causing more confusion on that particular battlefield is precisely the point because they're trying to get the ORB forces to question their orders and stop fighting, and so on - but Kira has the rhetorical skills of a block of wood so the best he can come up with on the fly is an incredibly awkward verbal pratfall. Cagalli is crying because she's watching her dream die, and her dream was ORB living in peace and not being sucked into more pointless hell wars, so Cagalli crying is a reason for Kira to fight. That's a good point, although I feel it is cut out from under it by how little it matters at all beyond that point. Once they manage to get everyone together they do manage to put the entire conflict to rest by the same interventionist tactics Kira employs without any real push back physically or philosophically.
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May 24, 2023 01:08
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Gripweed posted:I love that ever since 00 ended they've been regularly coming out with minor variations on suits in the Exia line to make extremely expensive action figures of for a committed fanbase of hardcore Astraea/Exia/00 lovers. Nobody has given 00 any thought since like a week after the movie came out but every six months they're just like, "oh yeah, the Exia Replica Repair was briefly upgraded with an experimental sword. Here's a toy of that. 400 dollars." ooh, i like that, cant wait to get this in third party kit form in 3-5 years 
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May 24, 2023 01:40
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RevolverDivider posted:Rau and Kira were made by the same guy I'm fairly sure. Made by the same guy for different reasons. Al La Flaga wanted a good successor because he thought Mu sucked. So he gave a fortune for them to make a clone. The guys took his money pumped out a bunch of clones, onlt to realize they were defective, then peace'd out to go work on the thing they actually wanted to make, which was Kira. It's part of Rau's specific beef with Kira, because not only is Rau thrown away by everyone involbed in his creation, but he is for most of them, nothing more than a cheap product they made to get funding for the thing they actually wanted. I will totally agree that the actions in Seed largely refute Rau, even if Kira has no argument, but boy howdy does destiny poo poo all over that given thst they are back on the superweappn train before Rau's particulate atoms have even begun to cool.
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May 24, 2023 04:17
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Gripweed posted:I love that ever since 00 ended they've been regularly coming out with minor variations on suits in the Exia line to make extremely expensive action figures of for a committed fanbase of hardcore Astraea/Exia/00 lovers. Nobody has given 00 any thought since like a week after the movie came out but every six months they're just like, "oh yeah, the Exia Replica Repair was briefly upgraded with an experimental sword. Here's a toy of that. 400 dollars." That's just the XN Raiser's combined sword.
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May 24, 2023 05:03
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Argas posted:That's just the XN Raiser's combined sword. Sure, but what if the Astraea was holding it? 400 dollars.
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May 24, 2023 05:06
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RevolverDivider posted:Rau and Kira were made by the same guy I'm fairly sure. I don't really think it's that necessary for the protagonist to get a satisfying verbal own in on the gibbering genocidal lunatic for things to be satisfying. To draw a comparison to CCA - which has a very similar setup in broad strokes, with the protagonist and antagonist fighting a duel over stopping a doomsday weapon - Amuro doesn't really successfully refute or verbally own Char. In their verbal jousting, Char's point is that humans suck rear end and need to extirpate their sins and move into space. He's supported by this by, oh, the entire last 20 years of the UC, which are full of horrors upon horrors that make Cosmic Era look like paradise. Amuro's point is that humans do suck rear end, but they have the potential to not suck rear end, and it's not Char's place to judge them. This devolves into the two of them slap fighting until Amuro is left completely baffled while Char rants about his mother complex. Amuro finally goes "gently caress it, I'll show you", tries to push back Axis on his own with no success, gets assisted by a bunch of mobile suits of varying sides(this is CCA's "officer shoots patrick" moment), and then a literal miracle happens(this is CCA's "athrun and cagalli manage to blow the reactor" moment).
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May 24, 2023 06:04
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Kanos posted:I don't really think it's that necessary for the protagonist to get a satisfying verbal own in on the gibbering genocidal lunatic for things to be satisfying. The difference is, those moments in CCA are part of the same fight as Amuro and Char, while the points countering Rau happen far from him and Kira's fight. The Axis Shock is a direct refutation, while Rau's only indirectly countered, while the fight in front of him reinforces his point.
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May 24, 2023 07:07
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chiasaur11 posted:The difference is, those moments in CCA are part of the same fight as Amuro and Char, while the points countering Rau happen far from him and Kira's fight. The Axis Shock is a direct refutation, while Rau's only indirectly countered, while the fight in front of him reinforces his point. I think my point of contention is that I don't think it's important or meaningful for the villain to be directly refuted to their face, because once you're at the point that you're committing omnicide you're past the point where you can be convinced or redeemed. Rau isn't going to change his mind any more than Char did, but the show makes it a point to present reasons to the audience why he's an idiot. The Axis Shock is a direct refutation of Char saying humans are poo poo and can't be redeemed, but the ZAFT officers doing a mutiny to stop their insane genocidal commander and a natural and coordinator working together to disable the superweapon is also a direct refutation of Rau saying humans are poo poo and can't be redeemed. Char wasn't even convinced in the end, he was just confused because from his perspective, Amuro was a moron who was committing suicide for no reason.
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May 24, 2023 07:16
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Villans ideology being countered directly vs. through the work should be considered separate. Certainly it can be powerful to see the the MC overwhelm the villain both in morals as well as skill, but it's not necessary to show. Especially when the work as a whole already refutes it, and it's the same myopia that the villains already had developed leading into the adoption of ideology that prevents them from changing it or confronting it. Think of the end of S2 of Kaiji, for two seasons we've been seeing this rich rear end in a top hat lord over the overwhelming powers of capital and beating Kaiji with the anti humanist dog eat dog ideological stick. Then when he's finally out of the man's grip he realizes he's exactly where he started, no better off. Until a goon just hands him some money, for no reason other than it's the right thing to do.
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May 24, 2023 07:30
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chiasaur11 posted:The difference is, those moments in CCA are part of the same fight as Amuro and Char, while the points countering Rau happen far from him and Kira's fight. The Axis Shock is a direct refutation, while Rau's only indirectly countered, while the fight in front of him reinforces his point. having never seen seed this immediately makes me think of that "rau acknowledges he's defined by his experiences" deal. if the dude isn't right, but everything in his direct vicinity isn't able to contest that, that seems to tie together (maybe it's an intentional point being made?)
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May 24, 2023 15:42
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| # ? May 11, 2024 23:37 |
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ok Twitter crop ruined it so just go check out the website https://www.jacobwheelerphotography.com/ https://twitter.com/Deve_Dy/status/1661175088761151489?s=20
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May 24, 2023 15:45
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