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sugar free jazz posted:counterspell is messy and if a player was going to be using counterspell i'd have my player just give me a list of their spells and if they wanted to try and counterspell they could ask and i'd check the list. it's weird because both recognize spell and counterspell are reactions. Note that you automatically recognize spells that you have prepared/that are in your repertoire, with no reaction required. Since you need to cast the same spell to counterspell anyways, you effectively automatically recognize any spell that you can counterspell (fancy wizard counterspelling notwithstanding).
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May 26, 2023 19:38
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The Remastered preview stream is making it pretty clear to me that this is, in fact, closer to a 2.5e than a 2.1e, insofar as that terminology is understandable. Lots of changes, some weird (spell schools going away is weird with what references them), some required (OGL name changes), most good.
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May 26, 2023 21:24
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Only spontaneous casters have a repertoire, right? So for a witch/wizard, you automatically recognize any spell you currently have prepared, but not spells that are in your familiar/spellbook?
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May 26, 2023 21:37
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pork never goes bad posted:Only spontaneous casters have a repertoire, right? So for a witch/wizard, you automatically recognize any spell you currently have prepared, but not spells that are in your familiar/spellbook? Yes
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May 26, 2023 21:38
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Link to summary of PaizoCon PF2E Remastered Panel: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q_NyA75fUx86Aw1uk1AzSb78gfg2UfVydRg2yt5prpw/preview
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May 26, 2023 21:49
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Toshimo posted:Link to summary of PaizoCon PF2E Remastered Panel: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q_NyA75fUx86Aw1uk1AzSb78gfg2UfVydRg2yt5prpw/preview Thanks for sharing this, very interesting stuff.
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May 26, 2023 22:09
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I didn't really think about how irrelevant spell types are most of the time until they announced that they're removing them. And now that they're gone and they've talked about what's replacing them, my one question is what they're doing with runelords. They're one of the more iconic parts of early Pathfinder, and they're a lot harder to explain without spell schools. Maybe they'll just treat them like any other wizard school and remove prohibited schools as a concept?
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May 26, 2023 22:17
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I know this is a convention changelog designed to make things sound cool. But, man, shedding the legacy baggage sounds like net win after net win here.
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May 26, 2023 22:26
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Warpriest buffs and cool witch stuff makes me happy.
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May 26, 2023 23:03
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I, too, am excited. Thanks for sharing Toshimo.
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May 26, 2023 23:11
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Lurks With Wolves posted:I didn't really think about how irrelevant spell types are most of the time until they announced that they're removing them. And now that they're gone and they've talked about what's replacing them, my one question is what they're doing with runelords. They're one of the more iconic parts of early Pathfinder, and they're a lot harder to explain without spell schools. Maybe they'll just treat them like any other wizard school and remove prohibited schools as a concept? Didn't the runelords have a minor correlation to the 7 deadly sins? Couldn't they slot that in more prominently and have the magic tie to the theme m,ore?
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May 26, 2023 23:13
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Yeah which is called out in the document a little. The runelords are the basis for the new focused on the school of learning system they're using.
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May 26, 2023 23:19
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The one thing I didn’t see in that recap that has me a bit worried is no mention of scaling items for spellcaster math, a shadow signet inclusion and more like that. I honestly don’t know why it wasn’t in the first core rulebook printing anyway.
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May 27, 2023 00:28
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The Bee posted:I know this is a convention changelog designed to make things sound cool. But, man, shedding the legacy baggage sounds like net win after net win here. I will miss the fiends and chromatic dragons.
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May 27, 2023 01:19
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They will still exist, you can still use them.
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May 27, 2023 01:26
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3 Action Economist posted:They will still exist, you can still use them. I know, but they won’t get any updates for the future. Like it’s not a game breaking loss, but it saddens me a little bit.
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May 27, 2023 01:45
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In news I am happy about. Kingmaker is nearly ready for Foundry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEV5ktd5ojE
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May 27, 2023 02:02
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3 Action Economist posted:They will still exist, you can still use them. Paizo won't, though. And it's breaking away from 30+ years of my own gaming history from AD&D 1e through to Pathfinder 2e. The eight schools of magic, chromatic and metallic dragons, alignment. They're gone now. Understanding why they're doing it and recognizing the basic necessity of it doesn't make the change any less jarring for those of us who saw Pathfinder as a continuation of things we'd been using in our games for 20, 30, 40 years. Now it's clearly a different game, and the ooooold school fans like me are going to have to make a decision on is it too much change, or not.
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May 27, 2023 02:37
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MonsterEnvy posted:In news I am happy about. Kingmaker is nearly ready for Foundry hopefully this comes out sooner in q3 rather than later, my playgroup was extremely excited about kingmaker after having played the original release years ago so we started it and have been cobbling things together and it'd be nice to just have it all done already.
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May 27, 2023 02:45
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DemonMage posted:Yeah which is called out in the document a little. The runelords are the basis for the new focused on the school of learning system they're using. Update: I'm blind. Ravus Ursus posted:Didn't the runelords have a minor correlation to the 7 deadly sins? Couldn't they slot that in more prominently and have the magic tie to the theme m,ore? Yeah, but there isn't an easy "you can't cast spells from X" option without spell schools. But then, it's also not like runelords are so powerful mechanically that they need that kind of restriction in 2e. It'll probably be fine.
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May 27, 2023 03:29
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Kvantum posted:Paizo won't, though. And it's breaking away from 30+ years of my own gaming history from AD&D 1e through to Pathfinder 2e. The eight schools of magic, chromatic and metallic dragons, alignment. They're gone now. Chromatic and metallic dragons are a terrible concept. You can tell the good dragons from the bad dragons because the good ones are shiny? Really? Did anyone genuinely think that was an interesting idea?
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May 27, 2023 15:07
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Presumably Gary Gygax did, but then he thought you could tell good from bad based on skin color anyway, so...
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May 27, 2023 15:28
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Silver2195 posted:Chromatic and metallic dragons are a terrible concept. You can tell the good dragons from the bad dragons because the good ones are shiny? Really? Did anyone genuinely think that was an interesting idea? WotC had started to get away from that as far back as Eberron, and Pathfinder had Hermea's ruler Mengkare from the start. And I freely admit that a lot of this is just a "me" problem. When you have a 20+ year old campaign setting and things in it that were a big part of it (lots of focus on dragon society, not quite "Council of Wyrms"-level) will have to change if I want it to keep consistent with the updates to the core game, there's no way around it being a little upsetting.
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May 27, 2023 15:41
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Make the changes in-world. Progressive attitudes towards creatures so they're no longer all thought of as evil, except by boomers who refuse to change. New research in magic to break the idea of schools and the like.
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May 27, 2023 16:03
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Kvantum posted:WotC had started to get away from that as far back as Eberron, and Pathfinder had Hermea's ruler Mengkare from the start. I mean “20+ year old” means “since before D&D 3.5 came out,” so you’ve had to deal with bigger changes than this. Nobody’s making you change dragon-related lore in your home game (well, your players might, I guess, but is that the issue here?). At worst, you’ll need to tweak/homebrew some things if you want to use some future dragon-related content in your home game.
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May 27, 2023 16:25
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MonsterEnvy posted:In news I am happy about. Kingmaker is nearly ready for Foundry Pretty hyped for this! Their abomination vaults module was so well made and requires very little prep work to run. Hoping Kingmaker will be of a similar level of quality.
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May 27, 2023 18:09
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Silver2195 posted:I mean “20+ year old” means “since before D&D 3.5 came out,” so you’ve had to deal with bigger changes than this. D&D 3.0 came out in 2000 and the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 are not in lore stuff.
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May 27, 2023 18:32
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YggdrasilTM posted:D&D 3.0 came out in 2000 and the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 are not in lore stuff. There wasn't a big retcon in 2003, no, but there were new settings (with somewhat different takes on, e.g., dragons) introduced during every edition of D&D, including 3.5, not to mention the differences between those settings and Golarion. Did Golarion even exist prior to 2008? I don't see why retcons regarding dragons in Golarion should matter for campaigns not set in Golarion.
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May 27, 2023 18:54
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3 Action Economist posted:Make the changes in-world. Progressive attitudes towards creatures so they're no longer all thought of as evil, except by boomers who refuse to change. New research in magic to break the idea of schools and the like. Silver2195 posted:I mean “20+ year old” means “since before D&D 3.5 came out,” so you’ve had to deal with bigger changes than this. Nobody’s making you change dragon-related lore in your home game (well, your players might, I guess, but is that the issue here?). At worst, you’ll need to tweak/homebrew some things if you want to use some future dragon-related content in your home game. Oh, that's already a part of it. The Tarnished and the Shining. Clans (specific dragon type) and Clades (chromatic, metallic, planar, etc.) have "exchanges" for their Renegades, formally expelling them from one Clade to be adopted into another, but only in equal numbers. It's led to interesting things like a CG-aligned Blue Dragon desperately trying to find a renegade Brass Dragon, not as an enemy, but as a potential partner for the swap to keep their families happy overall. Kvantum fucked around with this message at 19:01 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 18:57
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Silver2195 posted:Chromatic and metallic dragons are a terrible concept. You can tell the good dragons from the bad dragons because the good ones are shiny? Really? Did anyone genuinely think that was an interesting idea? The concept not being super interesting does not matter. I like the designs and personalities of the dragons, and I will miss them. That's the extent of it. The new Dragons could be an improvement in every single way, and I will still miss the old ones.
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May 27, 2023 19:59
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MonsterEnvy posted:The concept not being super interesting does not matter. I like the designs and personalities of the dragons, and I will miss them. That's the extent of it. The new Dragons could be an improvement in every single way, and I will still miss the old ones. This is part of it, too. 30+ years of design/personality continuity being discarded. For understandable reasons, true, but still, it's something a lot of old school gamers will miss.
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May 27, 2023 20:10
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I don't even consider myself Old School, still it's what I am familiar with.
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May 27, 2023 20:25
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I feel that all this proves is that Pathfinder marketing itself as 'DnD but different' was a mistake in the first place.
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May 27, 2023 20:44
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3 Action Economist posted:Make the changes in-world. Progressive attitudes towards creatures so they're no longer all thought of as evil, except by boomers who refuse to change. New research in magic to break the idea of schools and the like. I love this idea, though I realize not everyone will. Making lore changes part of the fiction of your world is so much more satisfying than just changing them by fiat (look at goblins!). But being able to mirror contemporary social trends in gaming and the ability to tell hopeful stories about positive movements actually succeeding and changing the world (again, goblins!!) is, I think, underappreciated by many in the wider gaming community that's, to some degree, obsessed with the grimdark. Paizo seem like they're embracing that possibility though, which to my mind is nothing but a good thing.
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May 27, 2023 20:45
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Hellioning posted:I feel that all this proves is that Pathfinder marketing itself as 'DnD but different' was a mistake in the first place. well, that's very much what pathfinder is
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May 27, 2023 20:46
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pork never goes bad posted:I love this idea, though I realize not everyone will. Making lore changes part of the fiction of your world is so much more satisfying than just changing them by fiat (look at goblins!). But being able to mirror contemporary social trends in gaming and the ability to tell hopeful stories about positive movements actually succeeding and changing the world (again, goblins!!) is, I think, underappreciated by many in the wider gaming community that's, to some degree, obsessed with the grimdark. Paizo seem like they're embracing that possibility though, which to my mind is nothing but a good thing. I'm definitely in the camp opposed to it, or at least feeling that Paizo seems to be too actively enthusiastic about it. Cheliax eliminating slavery altogether in favor of indentured servitude or sharecropping? It's just coming off as almost silly. The country whose monarchy is only propped up in power through literal contracts with Hell suddenly looks at slavery and says "oh, well that's just too far!"? Come on. Now the idea might be that it's an active part of the diabolical plot. An more insidious evil, creeping even deeper into mortal hearts as an "I Can't Believe it's not Slavery" kind of thing. Still, it just feels forced and performative, almost, rather than actual and genuine.
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May 27, 2023 20:59
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Kvantum posted:Now the idea might be that it's an active part of the diabolical plot. An more insidious evil, creeping even deeper into mortal hearts as an "I Can't Believe it's not Slavery" kind of thing. Still, it just feels forced and performative, almost, rather than actual and genuine. So much more profitable to exploit workers than it is to pay for their room and board.
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May 27, 2023 21:09
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Kvantum posted:I'm definitely in the camp opposed to it, or at least feeling that Paizo seems to be too actively enthusiastic about it. Cheliax eliminating slavery altogether in favor of indentured servitude or sharecropping? It's just coming off as almost silly. The country whose monarchy is only propped up in power through literal contracts with Hell suddenly looks at slavery and says "oh, well that's just too far!"? Come on. I think Paizo might be trying to get away from the uncomfortable implications of things like most Hellknights (including prominent members of the Order of the Chain) being Lawful Neutral. I think a lot of the stuff along those lines was from the 1e era, but still. Edit: Though yeah, you could also understand it in-universe as a sort of strategic retreat by Cheliax. Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 22:01 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 21:49
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super sweet best pal posted:So much more profitable to exploit workers than it is to pay for their room and board. Also Cheliax has lost lots of territory because of revolts and outside nations seeing them as this monolithic evil force with slavery and a literally diabolic legal system. Categorically "freeing" their slaves (but preserving the caste system of functional slavery) will win them a PR coup and relieve pressure from rebellions and diplomatic neighbors and possibly win them more allies who will help them enforce the legal limits on freedom. "It's not slavery, it's tithing/wages/free trade." It might even make people say poo poo like, "I'm free!? Bless Asmodeus the Liberator!" and undermine actual good deities. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 21:52 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 21:50
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marshmallow creep posted:Also Cheliax has lost lots of territory because of revolts and outside nations seeing them as this monolithic evil force with slavery and a literally diabolic legal system. Categorically "freeing" their slaves (but preserving the caste system of functional slavery) will win them a PR coup and relieve pressure from rebellions and diplomatic neighbors and possibly win them more allies who will help them enforce the legal limits on freedom. "It's not slavery, it's tithing/wages/free trade." It might even make people say poo poo like, "I'm free!? Bless Asmodeus the Liberator!" and undermine actual good deities. smh Asmodeus spent time at the University of Chicago, and brought back with him some great ideas.
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