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YOLOsubmarine posted:Lightning is a great connector but everyone (except Apple) would be better off if Apple switched wholesale to usb-c. It's not really a Lightning vs USB-C situation though, it's more like Lightning vs Micro-B where in this case the Tesla connector is a nicer connector and doesn't have any technical disadvantages.
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May 27, 2023 21:13
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pun pundit posted:Tesla already uses CCS in Europe. They know how to make their superchargers compatible. They know how to build CCS handles for their superchargers. They already know how to make CCS talk to their cars the same way their own plugs do. Make *the largest* charging provider and vehicle fleet by a wide margin change all their ports, vs making all the other bit players switch theirs (to a less expensive and more reliable option no less). There was a Munroe video just yesterday estimating that using NACS costs probably 30% less than CCS. And again, AC charging in Europe needs three phase support which requires more pins than NACS has, thus Europe needs CCS2 for very real reasons that North America does not. And there is also no compelling reason why the North American charging plug needs to be the same as the Europe charging plug, it isn't like anyone is going to drive a car or truck from North America to Europe or vise versa. YOLOsubmarine posted:Having a standard is better than having no standard and this makes a standard less, not more likely. It’s more fragmentation which is bad for consumers. Let me rephrase: You said having a standard is better, even if the standard itself is inferior. I reject that logic, if we are going to make a standard we should not choose the option that you yourself admit is inferior, we should make the unambiguously superior connection the standard. And it isn't even Lightning vs Type-C, it is Type-C vs Type-A. Yeah, the market is fragmented, but there is one huge fragment of NACS with something like 80% of the vehicles and chargers actually deployed already having a NACS port vs a small minority with CCS (that can be adapted to work with NACS while a native rollout happens). Indiana_Krom fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 21:46
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Indiana_Krom posted:Make *the largest* charging provider and vehicle fleet by a wide margin change all their ports, vs making all the other bit players switch theirs (to a less expensive and more reliable option no less). There was a Munroe video just yesterday estimating that using NACS costs probably 30% less than CCS. Do you really think the bit players that barely maintain their infrastructure as is are actually going to invest the capital to make this changeover in any reasonable timeframe? Tesla will continue to support NACS for their legacy customer base even if they cut over to cars to CCS. Those bit players do not have the same incentive because they haven’t sold a million vehicles with another connector type. Making CCS the standard would basically double charging availability. Making NACS the standard just means a bunch of CCS vehicles get stuck in a poorly maintained legacy charging infrastructure just like Chademo. It’s explicitly a consumer unfriendly choice, even before you get to the natural anticompetitive concerns about the largest EV maker also owning the largest universal charging network. If you ignore externalities then sure, NACS would be a better standard but if we get to ignore externalities then I propose the federal govt nationalizes Tesla and sells its assets to build a shitload of trains people can ride instead of driving everywhere. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 22:05 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 22:02
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Go with the chaos option and standardize around ChaDeMo, based entirely on having the best name.
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May 27, 2023 22:08
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YOLOsubmarine posted:but if we get to ignore externalities then I propose the federal govt nationalizes Tesla and sells its assets to build a shitload of trains people can ride instead of driving everywhere. I support this as long as the trains have the luxurious ventilated seats of the Chevrolet Bolt EUV
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May 27, 2023 22:10
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Elviscat posted:Go with the chaos option and standardize around ChaDeMo, based entirely on having the best name. Yeah but if we're doing that, Magne has the coolest physical interface.
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May 27, 2023 22:11
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Stultus Maximus posted:Yeah but if we're doing that, Magne has the coolest physical interface. That name sound French, so obviously that's out.
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May 27, 2023 22:14
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Wayne Knight posted:I support this as long as the trains have the luxurious ventilated seats of the Chevrolet Bolt EUV It is so nice when it's a hot day and it begins cooling your rear end immediately without even needing to ask.
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May 27, 2023 22:29
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Making CCS the standard would basically double charging availability. Making NACS the standard just means a bunch of CCS vehicles get stuck in a poorly maintained legacy charging infrastructure just like Chademo. CCS is already poorly maintained and it isn't even legacy yet, making it the standard won't make the bit players maintain their networks any better. Actually if you don't want Tesla to have a near monopoly on DCFC, then mandating a universal standard is probably the last thing you want to do. Nobody is going to go to a busted rear end EA station when a known working supercharger is just a few blocks away and they both have the same charging plug. Mandating a universal standard is just going to slaughter the bit players that much faster. Indiana_Krom fucked around with this message at 22:59 on May 27, 2023 |
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May 27, 2023 22:55
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The government mandating cross compatibility to access funds has already resulted in Tesla making some of their stations compatible with both standards.
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May 27, 2023 23:01
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Just pulled into the Gulf Shores Buc-ee’s and was pleasantly surprised to see some Tesla Superchargers there too. It makes a ton of sense to put them in Buc-ee’s, since each visit is 30 minutes or more anyway.
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May 27, 2023 23:09
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Indiana_Krom posted:Making either one the standard would basically double charging availability, that is why we want a standard in the first place. This is only true if you believe that EA and Volta and EVGo and wherever other half assed charging companies exist out there will actually expend money converting their infrastructure at a reasonable pace which seems implausible given how badly they support their current customers on the existing infrastructure. Tesla will actually put the money into supporting a standard other than NACS and we know this because they already do in Europe and have beginning doing it here so they can get federal money.
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May 27, 2023 23:37
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NACS should be the north american standard and Elon Musk should be the north american president
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May 27, 2023 23:38
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bird with big dick posted:NACS should be the north american standard and Elon Musk should be the north american president Disagree, bird with no dick.
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May 27, 2023 23:44
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I'm just going to end this right now: NACS does not support Vehicle-to-Load, CCS does. If America is going to continue to pursue dumbass energy policies and dumbass car batteries (We are), we should at last have VTL as part of our standard.
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May 27, 2023 23:45
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bird with big dick posted:NACS should be the north american standard and Elon Musk should be the north american president Had me in the first half, not gonna lie
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May 28, 2023 00:03
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Three Olives posted:I'm just going to end this right now: NACS could support Vehicle-to-Load, it is just a physical connection and doesn't really care which way the power is flowing. VtL only requires the necessary hardware on the vehicle side and some form of communication over the data pins, which is mostly a software problem. Also thank god Elon Musk cannot run for President.
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May 28, 2023 00:28
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Indiana_Krom posted:NACS could support Vehicle-to-Load, it is just a physical connection and doesn't really care which way the power is flowing. VtL only requires the necessary hardware on the vehicle side and some form of communication over the data pins, which is mostly a software problem. Don't worry, he can still buy one.
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May 28, 2023 01:01
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Indiana_Krom posted:NACS could support Vehicle-to-Load, it is just a physical connection and doesn't really care which way the power is flowing. VtL only requires the necessary hardware on the vehicle side and some form of communication over the data pins, which is mostly a software problem. It could, but it doesn't. This is why standards matter.
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May 28, 2023 01:25
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Three Olives posted:It could, but it doesn't. This is why standards matter. The standard just defines the shape of the connector and what it's rated for. Not what it's used for. If your E26 lightbulb doesn't have a radio receiver for smart home applications, that's nothing to do with the E26 standard socket you thread it in to. FWIW in agrees that vehicle to load is a pretty big deal in several different market segments and anything marketed as outdoorsy will be seriously hobbled by not offering it. Being able to charge your e-mountain bike and power your campsite from your EV is pretty appealing.
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May 28, 2023 02:21
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Three Olives posted:I'm just going to end this right now: Your Mach does VtL, does it?
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May 28, 2023 02:30
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I just spoke to a lady in a brand new Toyota BZ4X awd. Never even new it existed! She just got it last month, waited a year for it to get built, had a Prius Prime on lease before that. It looks kind of funky. Kind of follows the 2-tone Toyota crown design language. Inside is neat. She says it has carplay, gets 400km on a charge, and there's some sort of update coming to increase that by 10-15%? She said it's a bigger car than the Ioniq 5 her mom has, but I didn't get a good look inside. Cool to see Toyota throwing their hat in the BEV ring finally, for what it's worth.
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May 28, 2023 03:57
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Elviscat posted:Go with the chaos option and standardize around ChaDeMo, based entirely on having the best name. I'm rooting for Scame third (type) wave. 
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May 28, 2023 06:11
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Chademo loosely translates to お茶でもどうですか (O-cha demo ikaga desu-k) “How about a cup of tea” So its the best. 
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May 28, 2023 07:29
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FlapYoJacks posted:Chademo loosely translates to お茶でもどうですか (O-cha demo ikaga desu-k) “How about a cup of tea” It perfectly envisages the ideal EV motoring future, you stop at a charger in a nice little town, plug in, trundle down to a local cafè or restaurant, have a cup of tea or coffee or a meal, get back on the road. My GF's parents live one DCFC stop in the Bolt away from us, we usually break that into two quick lunch stops, we're spoiled for choice so we're pretty spoiled for choice on CCS chargers on our route, so we pick based on what we'd like for lunch. Breaks up the 4 hour drive nicely too. I road my motorcycle from CT->SC->TX->CA->WA in one go, and every two hours or so I'd look for somewhere to pull over and stop for a minimum of 15 minutes, it's a nice way to travel, very relaxing. EA or someone should do a guidebook to restaurants and attractions near their chargers, like Michelin did for worthy destinations around France. Elviscat fucked around with this message at 09:27 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 09:25
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Elviscat posted:It perfectly envisages the ideal EV motoring future, you stop at a charger in a nice little town, plug in, trundle down to a local cafè or restaurant, have a cup of tea or coffee or a meal, get back on the road.
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May 28, 2023 10:28
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Elviscat posted:It perfectly envisages the ideal EV motoring future, you stop at a charger in a nice little town, plug in, trundle down to a local cafè or restaurant, have a cup of tea or coffee or a meal, get back on the road. Something that would help is making car manufacture standardize onboard ac chargers at 22 kw, right now beside Renault and a few Audis everybody has either 7 or 11 kw. That way destination chargers could help a lot more than trickle charging at 7 kw due to car manufacturer penny pinching.
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May 28, 2023 10:38
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SlowBloke posted:Something that would help is making car manufacture standardize onboard ac chargers at 22 kw, right now beside Renault and a few Audis everybody has either 7 or 11 kw. That way destination chargers could help a lot more than trickle charging at 7 kw due to car manufacturer penny pinching.
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May 28, 2023 12:36
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Indiana_Krom posted:It isn't just being cheap, a 22 kW AC charger is bigger and heavier than 11 kW or 7 kW ones, which directly eats into range and presents issues with internal space/packaging/etc. Not to mention supplying 22 kW on 240v single phase AC requires 96 amps continuous (so with the 80% rule that means a 120 amp breaker) which needs bigger and better wiring. (The J1772 plug can handle 80 amps = 20 kW and is the smallest of the options, so all the connectors are generally up to the task.) It is also much easier to do in Europe because 3 phase power and CCS2. 22kw AC can be provided on conventional type 2(mennekes can handle up to 50kw ac before requiring the extra dc pins) without issues. I'm just pointing at stellantis and other cheap chinese alternatives, a number of public charge points here are 22kw ac paid by the hour so having a 11kw ac obc means throwing money out of the window.
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May 28, 2023 12:50
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Imagine if gas stations billed by time instead of volume. What do you think would happen to the speed of their gas pumps?
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May 28, 2023 14:14
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Silly Burrito posted:Just pulled into the Gulf Shores Buc-ee’s and was pleasantly surprised to see some Tesla Superchargers there too. It makes a ton of sense to put them in Buc-ee’s, since each visit is 30 minutes or more anyway. The Katy Buc-ee's had like a dozen superchargers and was actually expanding to have a whole line of uh... electrify america fast chargers as well (in addition to like 20 more gas stalls which would put it at like close to 150 gas stalls i swear to God Buc-ees are an abomination to life)
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May 28, 2023 14:25
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cruft posted:Imagine if gas stations billed by time instead of volume. What do you think would happen to the speed of their gas pumps? They would make the pressure be a drizzle I guess. Surely not Formula1 style full tank in a few seconds.
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May 28, 2023 15:02
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cruft posted:Imagine if gas stations billed by time instead of volume. What do you think would happen to the speed of their gas pumps? In this analogy gas stations would also advertise fill rate, but often your cars gas hole would be too small to take advantage of it. Pay by time charging is dumb as poo poo (outside chargers in garages where you pay hourly anyways) and needs to die though.
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May 28, 2023 18:38
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My understanding (fulling recognizing I could be incorrect, and you should do more research if you care) was that in some states, the ability to "sell electricity" is strictly limited to traditional utility providers. They get around charging for electricity directly by essentially charging parking fees, and providing "free" electricity as a benefit of parking there. It's a clever resolution to antiquated laws that lawmakers have little (if not negative) incentive to update. And I agree with Happy Noodle Boy. If you've never been to a Buc-ees, imagine Sam's Club and Purgatory had a baby that grew up to be a gas station. It's wild.
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May 28, 2023 18:58
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Yeah, it's still dumb tho. My state allows for direct kWh billing, and I've only ever charged at one hourly billed fast charger, and at like $2/hr it ended up being half the price controlled residential kWh rate, even with the Bolt's anemic fast charge rate. 
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May 28, 2023 20:28
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Charging by time owns and the second EVgo changed from time to per-kWh in Washington I canceled my membership. They charge 30% more than EA.
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May 28, 2023 20:48
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There's a charger in Santa Fe that charges a fixed $7 per charge attempt. This includes failed attempts.
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May 28, 2023 21:28
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FlapYoJacks posted:Charging by time owns and the second EVgo changed from time to per-kWh in Washington I canceled my membership. They charge 30% more than EA. The EA charger in Albuquerque is by time, too. I did the calculation and it should have been really cheap. Then I went and plugged in with 15% SOC and it peaked at 20kW max on the Bolt. They just really don't have an incentive to get you in and out of there quickly if you pay by the minute.
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May 28, 2023 21:30
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Indiana_Krom posted:It isn't just being cheap, a 22 kW AC charger is bigger and heavier than 11 kW or 7 kW ones, which directly eats into range and presents issues with internal space/packaging/etc. Not to mention supplying 22 kW on 240v single phase AC requires 96 amps continuous (so with the 80% rule that means a 120 amp breaker) which needs bigger and better wiring. (The J1772 plug can handle 80 amps = 20 kW and is the smallest of the options, so all the connectors are generally up to the task.) It is also much easier to do in Europe because 3 phase power and CCS2. I am a CCS Combo 2 stan. It’s what I’ve put into my next generation designs (industrial / mining vehicles) and my biggest issue is getting buy-in on North American customers using it because UL listing on EVSE is _very_ specific…
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May 28, 2023 22:21
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Wizard of the Deep posted:And I agree with Happy Noodle Boy. If you've never been to a Buc-ees, imagine Sam's Club and Purgatory had a baby that grew up to be a gas station. It's wild. And for some strange reason, we love that drat little cute beaver.
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May 28, 2023 22:23
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