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there is also no budget involved here and there hasn't been one since 2010. This is about the government being allowed to borrow more money to be able to make debt payments and avoid a default.
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May 28, 2023 06:38
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Ghost Leviathan posted:And it's amazing how quickly the need to have great victories means presenting failure as success and calling anyone who points it out a whiny unrealistic extremist. It's certainly frustrating. Food prices are insanely high at the moment, but the Dems are choosing to withdraw a helping hand for those who desperately need it. Every time they need to Get Things Done, it's always the poor that suffers first, and the most, and oftentimes the only ones who suffer.
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May 28, 2023 06:44
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Cranappleberry posted:there is also no budget involved here and there hasn't been one since 2010. This is about the government being allowed to borrow more money to be able to make debt payments and avoid a default. Is this post from 2014? There was a budget passed last year. And the deal is a budget/appropriations bill, that's how they're capping spending for the next two years.
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May 28, 2023 06:51
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Depending on the details that come out (And whether it actually passes), I think this might actually be a win for Biden? This is an excellent description of how a win for democrats, in the sense of people who currently hold national office understand that title, does not equal a win for anyone other than them. How is this good news for anything other than nebulous future elections? Why should I be enthusiastic about another term for Biden if this is what he does with his first term? Work requirements for public aid are evil, just as cuts to public aid are evil. Is the argument here that these things are inevitable and the only thing to be expected of our politicians is that sometimes they mitigate the degree of inevitable evil things? It might be inevitable, but it’s not good in any sense. It’s a symptom of the failure of liberal democracy in America.
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May 28, 2023 06:54
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Joe Biden can suck my entire rear end. loving prick! (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2023 06:56
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theCalamity posted:It's certainly frustrating. Food prices are insanely high at the moment, but the Dems are choosing to withdraw a helping hand for those who desperately need it. Every time they need to Get Things Done, it's always the poor that suffers first, and the most, and oftentimes the only ones who suffer. That's because that's exactly how the system was designed to work. Somehow, the hard pragmatic decision always involves loving over the poor and vulnerable and then expecting us to thank them for yet another knife in the back.
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May 28, 2023 07:01
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Acebuckeye13 posted:This is what I've seen so far: This is going to kill people.
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May 28, 2023 07:02
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Ghost Leviathan posted:This is going to kill people. Only if you view individuals below a certain income level as people. Politicians don't have that problem.
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May 28, 2023 07:02
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Twincityhacker posted:...I'd argue that "not letting the goverment default" is a progressive position. Depends. I'd figure 'saying gently caress you to the hostage taking and putting it before the SCOTUS to enforce the 14th Amendment with a global financial crisis as motivation not to shrug it off' might be a better option than giving the GOP what they want and kicking the can another two years down the road. The trumpists in the House Freedom Caucus aren't going to get any less crazy in that time.
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May 28, 2023 07:10
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I AM GRANDO posted:Work requirements for public aid are evil, just as cuts to public aid are evil. Is the argument here that these things are inevitable and the only thing to be expected of our politicians is that sometimes they mitigate the degree of inevitable evil things? The deal expands work requirements for public aid because voters in 2022 elected a Republican house, the house is in charge of the budget, and Republicans want work requirements (ok not really, they want to eliminate those programs). Even if the debt limit didn't exist, Republicans could have won this kind of deal in a normal budget fight. If Democrats had wanted the work requirements, they could have done them in the last two years when they controlled both chambers of congress and the presidency. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 07:34 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 07:31
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James Garfield posted:The deal expands work requirements for public aid because voters in 2022 elected a Republican house, the house is in charge of the budget, and Republicans want work requirements (ok not really, they want to eliminate those programs). If Democrats had wanted the work requirements, they could have done them in the last two years when they controlled both chambers of congress and the presidency. They already made a budget, though, right? This is over raising the debt ceiling so that the country can pay for the spending it already committed to. If the Democrats didn't want the GOP to use the debt ceiling to threaten the country, as they've done many times in the last decade, they could have gotten rid of it in the last two years when they controlled both chambers of congress and the presidency.
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May 28, 2023 07:42
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Liquid Communism posted:Depends. I'd figure 'saying gently caress you to the hostage taking and putting it before the SCOTUS to enforce the 14th Amendment with a global financial crisis as motivation not to shrug it off' might be a better option than giving the GOP what they want and kicking the can another two years down the road. There is too much risk in trying to predict what SCOTUS would do with this. The court has already proven they don't give a gently caress about public opinion, and Roberts has completely lost control. That's not a bet I'd want to make - and it's not a bet I'd want the White House to make either.
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May 28, 2023 07:46
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cr0y posted:
The patronizing language here is infuriating. "Not everyone gets what they want". gently caress you old man, the only reason this is even an issue is because your party is happy to play along with this bullshit. It's an entirely manufactured crisis. Joe Biden got exactly what he wanted. He gets to uphold his only campaign promise that he actually meant: nothing will fundamentally change (for the rich).
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May 28, 2023 07:46
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theCalamity posted:If the Democrats didn't want the GOP to use the debt ceiling to threaten the country, as they've done many times in the last decade, they could have gotten rid of it in the last two years when they controlled both chambers of congress and the presidency. Well, if Biden invented a mind control ray to use to make Kyrsten Sinema vote for it, he could certainly have done that.
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May 28, 2023 07:59
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James Garfield posted:Well, if Biden invented a mind control ray to use to make Kyrsten Sinema vote for it, he could certainly have done that. Biden didn't want the debt ceiling removed. It didn't come down to Sinema or Manchin. It didn't even come up for a vote in the House. It just wallowed in a committee in the House. The Democrats had the opportunity, they had the power, and did nothing even though everyone could see it being used against them... because this isn't the first time this has happened. Or the second. Or third https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2022/10/21/remarks-by-president-biden-on-historic-deficit-reduction/ quote:THE PRESIDENT: The permanent repeal of the debt ceiling? What do you mean? theCalamity fucked around with this message at 08:12 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 08:06
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Incrementalism, but instead of making glacial progress it's just conceding that things can only ever get worse, so we'll do it by a thousand cuts and call it pragmatic. Decrementalism.
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May 28, 2023 08:08
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Goons: "I would just dare them to shoot the hostage." poo poo sucks, but they said a while ago that they felt a 14th amendment solution would get jammed in the courts, so a deal was inevitable. And yeah you don't get what you want when the other guy has a veto.
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May 28, 2023 09:34
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Goons: "I would just dare them to shoot the hostage." So instead of letting them "shoot the hostage" we let them extort more and more concessions over years that will result in poverty and death for vulnerable individuals. Poor pregnancy outcomes. Kids performing poorly in underfunded schools because they're hungry and chronically stressed. In fact they want to keep the debt ceiling around, even though the only purpose it serves is as an excuse for slashing essential services. Being pragmatic and making hard decisions only ever means deciding that vulnerable people get even less support.
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May 28, 2023 10:03
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Given the shackles they placed upon themselves, the Democrats got a pretty good deal. But it's pretty lovely in absolute terms. I thought everyone had learned their lesson about leaving power to Republicans in hopes the "moderates" would come to the rescue, but we aren't quite there yet.
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May 28, 2023 10:08
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AKA Pseudonym posted:Given the shackles they placed upon themselves, the Democrats got a pretty good deal. But it's pretty lovely in absolute terms. I thought everyone had learned their lesson about leaving power to Republicans in hopes the "moderates" would come to the rescue, but we aren't quite there yet. At this point I think everyone realises that except the most senile who still think Carter is president, but they and the media class who serve the ruling class are financially obligated to keep up the kayfabe.
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May 28, 2023 10:11
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I'm sure glad we got a whole two years of not putting a gun to the head of the world economy in a manufactured crisis and all it cost was dead people in poverty. Vote harder, suckers! That'll keep you alive next time. Maybe. If we decide to care. Your sacrifice will not be remembered. But be sure to vote blue no matter who for the only thing that matters in the next two years. In between burying your children or whatever, nobody cares. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2023 11:45
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To the folks complaining about this specific deal - have any of you ever been in a contentious negotiation? It's easy to claim that the Dems should have fixed this 2 years ago, sure, but given the circumstances over the last 3 months, this seems to be a pretty good outcome if goes through.
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May 28, 2023 12:04
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Shooting Blanks posted:To the folks complaining about this specific deal - have any of you ever been in a contentious negotiation? It's easy to claim that the Dems should have fixed this 2 years ago, sure, but given the circumstances over the last 3 months, this seems to be a pretty good outcome if goes through. One with an easy way out such as minting a coin or evoking the 14th amendment? Yes, at work, constantly. And I always take the metaphorical minting of the minting of the coin route personally because I don’t find it worth anyone’s time to reason with unreasonable people. But then again I don’t think like alleged rapist Biden nor his supporters.
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May 28, 2023 12:33
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:One with an easy way out such as minting a coin or evoking the 14th amendment? Yes, at work, constantly. And I always take the metaphorical minting of the minting of the coin route personally because I don’t find it worth anyone’s time to reason with unreasonable people. But then again I don’t think like alleged rapist Biden nor his supporters. Sure super easy process that has never been done before and will certainly go in front of a republican supreme court.
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May 28, 2023 12:35
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I think a number of people vastly overestimate how much even the fanatics on the current SCOTUS would be willing to take responsibility for an action that would actually financially hurt their backers.
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May 28, 2023 12:38
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socialsecurity posted:Sure super easy process that has never been done before and will certainly go in front of a republican supreme court. Better not doing anything than because of some mythical robed wizards who have zero legal authority to enforce their rulings under the constitution might do moves that benefit republicans. Instead let’s preempt them and gently caress over the most vulnerable. Like I said, I don’t think like alleged rapist Biden nor his supporters. Liquid Communism posted:I think a number of people vastly overestimate how much even the fanatics on the current SCOTUS would be willing to take responsibility for an action that would actually financially hurt their backers. Exactly. Anyone claiming that “Dems blinked” or some poo poo are either naive or actively callous. Dems didn’t blink. They nodded gleefully along while loving over the most vulnerable. Liberals are polite conservatives and nothing more. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 12:46 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 12:43
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Better not doing anything than because of some mythical robed wizards who have zero legal authority to enforce their rulings under the constitution might do moves that benefit republicans. Instead let’s preempt them and gently caress over the most vulnerable. Nevermind, It seems you care less about reality then having some "libs" to yell at. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2023 12:49
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Liquid Communism posted:I think a number of people vastly overestimate how much even the fanatics on the current SCOTUS would be willing to take responsibility for an action that would actually financially hurt their backers. The delay is a problem. How long would it take to be fast tracked to SCOTUS? Absolute best case scenario, we're talking about months. That still fucks over every single person in the US. It's a bad solution.
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May 28, 2023 12:51
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socialsecurity posted:Nevermind, It seems you care less about reality then having some "libs" to yell at. How is your statement any different from the republicans nonsense about guns: Can’t do anything because criminals can still get guns. VS Can’t do anything because the Supreme Court might strike it down. Shooting Blanks posted:The delay is a problem. How long would it take to be fast tracked to SCOTUS? Absolute best case scenario, we're talking about months. That still fucks over every single person in the US. It's a bad solution. In what timeline? You are asking those in power to actively hurt large sections of capital. Wouldn’t happen. virtualboyCOLOR fucked around with this message at 12:56 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 12:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:This is going to kill people. It will, but because theres enough 'steps' in the way, not enough people will see it for the murder it actually is. I really wish our country's populace was as willing to kill politicians, as politicians are willing to kill vulnerable people. Someone should figure out how to put enough 'steps' in there to off some politicians, see if they can't pull it off the way these fucks are doing to vulnerable people, some of which I know and love deeply. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2023 12:53
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>>> "Vote blue no matter who" Had a few more people done that, we would literally not be in this situation right now because the House would be in the Democrats hands and there would be no debt ceiling crisis and no talk of spending caps.
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May 28, 2023 12:56
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Twincityhacker posted:>>> "Vote blue no matter who" And there it is. This is a manufactured problem with a legitimate way out but never miss an opportunity to scold the vulnerable.
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May 28, 2023 12:57
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:In what timeline? You are asking those in power to actively hurt large sections of capital. Wouldn’t happen. Please describe to me, in detail, how a claim about Congress' and the White House would have a claim fast tracked to SCOTUS. How many courts would it go through, how fast could they process it, and what damage would it do every single day that it didn't happen. Use historical examples, not projections.
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May 28, 2023 13:01
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Shooting Blanks posted:Please describe to me, in detail, how a claim about Congress' and the White House would have a claim fast tracked to SCOTUS. How many courts would it go through, how fast could they process it, and what damage would it do every single day that it didn't happen. Ex Parte Merryman Worcester v. Georgia
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May 28, 2023 13:05
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Ex Parte Merryman Please describe to me, in detail. Did you fail to read the first thing I asked?
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May 28, 2023 13:13
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Shooting Blanks posted:Please describe to me, in detail. Did you fail to read the first thing I asked? Congress is starting to get involved with this, at least. I think we've seen a few other posts here, but hopefully it will go somewhere.
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May 28, 2023 13:17
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Ex Parte Merryman It seems somewhat sus to rely on the Professor to elucidate case law Which you know he will, so maybe we're all fine?
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May 28, 2023 13:20
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virtualboyCOLOR posted:Congress is starting to get involved with this, at least. I think we've seen a few other posts here, but hopefully it will go somewhere. Another dodge. Are you sure you aren't a GOP plant in here? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2023 13:22
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Twincityhacker posted:>>> "Vote blue no matter who" Since the dems decided that getting rid of the debt ceiling wasn't important when we "blue no matter who"'d them into full control of the government, this was always going to happen. I wonder what the Republicans will demand next time.
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May 28, 2023 13:22
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I absolutely loathe that deals are continually made with terrorists over the debt ceiling. Every time this comes up it's always "we got a good deal, we only have to abandon/kill a surprisingly small amount of the poor and vulnerable instead of the large amount that was expected!  ", and it's loving nauseating.That said, I honestly don't know how far I trust the old standby of "don't worry, the capitalist overbarons will save us from the implosion of our own government, it's in their own interests to do so!". After the last two decades I can't bring myself to trust blindly that the fanatics won't shoot the hostage and that the capitalist puppetmasters are actually brilliant. I'm also not convinced that a 14th amendment solution wouldn't lead to a muted version of what would happen in the case of a default to begin with, because faith in U.S. debt would, at least in the short term, temporarily collapse even if it was ultimately upheld in the Supreme Court. Kanos fucked around with this message at 13:28 on May 28, 2023 |
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May 28, 2023 13:26
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