Magic: the Gathering: I play a larger and larger green man

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Magic: the Gathering: I play a larger and larger green man

«‹›1157 »

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

Sickening posted:

Dryad Arbor at the loving pro tour.

It sucks that guy got blown out but his sacrifice means I no longer have to ask people to stop putting their poo poo in weird locations.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:33

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 5, 2024 00:36

CubeTheory: Mar 26, 2010; Cube Reversal

This happened to me at a PTQ once:

An opponent plays a fetch on turn one and passes.
I play my land and pass back, he cracks his fetch and gets a mountain, a land it couldn't get.
He immediately untaps and plays a second land that doesn't produce red, and casts a red spell.
As he's doing this I say "Wait, you couldn't get that mountain with that fetch."
We call the judge and are both issued infractions for failing to maintain the game state.

Later in that same tournament, and this is the most angle shooter poo poo I've ever seen, an opponent cut my deck and shuffled it but flipped the orientation of the cards on one half. After I started drawing my cards I noted that half of them were upside down. The opponent then called the judge and claimed I had marked my cards. They took my deck and determined that it was sufficiently randomized, but still issued me a minor infraction, then issued me a game loss because it was my second one of the day.

I hope the competitive scene has become a better place than this.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:34

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

CubeTheory posted:

This happened to me at a PTQ once:

An opponent plays a fetch on turn one and passes.
I play my land and pass back, he cracks his fetch and gets a mountain, a land it couldn't get.
He immediately untaps and plays a second land that doesn't produce red, and casts a red spell.
As he's doing this I say "Wait, you couldn't get that mountain with that fetch."
We call the judge and are both issued infractions for failing to maintain the game state.

Later in that same tournament, and this is the most angle shooter poo poo I've ever seen, an opponent cut my deck and shuffled it but flipped the orientation of the cards on one half. After I started drawing my cards I noted that half of them were upside down. The opponent then called the judge and claimed I had marked my cards. They took my deck and determined that it was sufficiently randomized, but still issued me a minor infraction, then issued me a game loss because it was my second one of the day.

I hope the competitive has become a better place than this.

Did you tell the judge the guy who shuffled your deck is the one that boxed it?

# ? May 28, 2023 20:35

CubeTheory: Mar 26, 2010; Cube Reversal

fadam posted:

Did you tell the judge the guy who shuffled your deck is the one that boxed it?

I didn't notice, and couldn't prove it

# ? May 28, 2023 20:36

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

CubeTheory posted:

This happened to me at a PTQ once:

An opponent plays a fetch on turn one and passes.
I play my land and pass back, he cracks his fetch and gets a mountain, a land it couldn't get.
He immediately untaps and plays a second land that doesn't produce red, and casts a red spell.
As he's doing this I say "Wait, you couldn't get that mountain with that fetch."
We call the judge and are both issued infractions for failing to maintain the game state.

Later in that same tournament, and this is the most angle shooter poo poo I've ever seen, an opponent cut my deck and shuffled it but flipped the orientation of the cards on one half. After I started drawing my cards I noted that half of them were upside down. The opponent then called the judge and claimed I had marked my cards. They took my deck and determined that it was sufficiently randomized, but still issued me a minor infraction, then issued me a game loss because it was my second one of the day.

I hope the competitive has become a better place than this.

Exactly. The first situation is not your fault and I will not budge on this. The time to place the incorrect card on the table, draw, and place another land on the table is too little time to reasonably expect an opponent to catch the act. You catching it when you did is plenty fast enough if not way above par. The fetch is owned by the person making the "mistake". Penalizing the victim is batshit insane.

The second was just lazy judging even for its time. You had no control over your deck once presenting to your opponent. If there was some expectation that you were suppose to notice the orientation of the cards 100% during shuffling by your opp.... i can't even type that with a straight face jfc. Even if you can't prove which cards got switched by who , warnings for both is just really dumb. No advanced gained by either side EXCEPT in the case for someone deep into a tournament with no warnings so far shooting their shot.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:43

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

Jim Davis talks about what he thinks should or shouldn't be banned tomorrow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhN1MkoaboE&hd=1

I think he's right on the money with his picks(Atraxa/Fable/Bankbuster/Raffine with potential understandable additions Invoke Despair and Wedding Announcement) and gives good reasoning for all of them, but I feel like Bankbuster being in every deck isn't necessarily a bad thing. jank glue is a very important part of standard and I feel like while it IS the best of any of those to come out, it's not completely ruinous to the format like fable or atraxa is. If they ban the other cards, I think it'd be fine if bankbuster stays.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:43

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

Captain Invictus posted:

Jim Davis talks about what he thinks should or shouldn't be banned tomorrow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhN1MkoaboE&hd=1

I think he's right on the money with his picks(Atraxa/Fable/Bankbuster/Raffine with potential understandable additions Invoke Despair and Wedding Announcement) and gives good reasoning for all of them, but I feel like Bankbuster being in every deck isn't necessarily a bad thing. jank glue is a very important part of standard and I feel like while it IS the best of any of those to come out, it's not completely ruinous to the format like fable or atraxa is. If they ban the other cards, I think it'd be fine if bankbuster stays.

Banned invoke despair is just silly. Sheoldred and fable alone is enough to put black in healthier situation. With those two cards gone people aren't even going to cast invoke despair anymore even with it being around. Banning it would just remove it from fringe control decks that aren't going to be good.

Atraxa is also one of those cards that feels a bit borderline. Its a modern power level card and a top end of standard that might be too good. It still requires a fairly large deck building requirement that might be enough of a threshhold after new standard shakes out. It losing out on fable as part of the trigger is also a consideration. This doesn't feel like Emrakul, the Promised End level of broken. Feel a little more like reflector mage IMO.

Bankbuster is just smugglers copter all over again.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:54

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

I bet we get a Shelly ban as a feel-good type thing even if the meta could handle it. People just seem sick of it.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:56

flatluigi: Apr 23, 2008; here come the planes

I think with rotation being pushed a year it'd be better to ban cards that are borderline than to let them continue to hang around, if just for freshness's sake

# ? May 28, 2023 20:58

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

flatluigi posted:

I think with rotation being pushed a year it'd be better to ban cards that are borderline than to let them continue to hang around, if just for freshness's sake

I agree, I'd be happy if they just did like a "soft" rotation ever time the normal rotation would have come up with the previous system, but maybe that doesn't fix the problem they're trying to solve.

# ? May 28, 2023 20:59

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

Brown brought up Invoke Despair as a problem when asked about black�s spot removal being too good. His point was that black is supposed to have very good removal, but that the ways you�d usually play around that, by bringing in walkers and enchantments, are countered by Invoke.

I took that as virtually confirming that it�ll be on the ban list.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:02

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

Sickening posted:

Banned invoke despair is just silly. Sheoldred and fable alone is enough to put black in healthier situation. With those two cards gone people aren't even going to cast invoke despair anymore even with it being around. Banning it would just remove it from fringe control decks that aren't going to be good.

Atraxa is also one of those cards that feels a bit borderline. Its a modern power level card and a top end of standard that might be too good. It still requires a fairly large deck building requirement that might be enough of a threshhold after new standard shakes out. It losing out on fable as part of the trigger is also a consideration. This doesn't feel like Emrakul, the Promised End level of broken. Feel a little more like reflector mage IMO.

Bankbuster is just smugglers copter all over again.

eh, atraxa hitting the board, which is absolutely not difficult at all with the current standard, both either through reanimating it or hard casting it, is essentially game over right then and there. I can count on one hand the number of games where an enemy resolved atraxa still lead to a defeat for my opponent, it's just way too powerful in both refilling your hand and also being a game-ending threat. if it was a cast trigger, I would agree with you that it would be remotely reasonable in standard, but as a cheat into play target as well, it's too much. I don't think it's emrakul level, but I also think it's easier to get into play than emrakul since treasures have become so ubiquitous.

I admit I didn't play during smugglers copter era, but I did play during eldraine standard and it feels like a stronger mindmaze tome that instead of giving you four life gives you a creature, vehicle, and treasure at the end. I didn't play during the treasure map era either, but it feels like a better version of that too. it being an actual damaging threat once it's used up though, I can see that being justification for a ban.

and if invoke and shelly survive, I can see monoblack decks returning in force. invoke being such easy enchantment removal makes enchantment centric decks way squishier, and I think that's bad for the format. shelly sucks but I don't think deserves a ban, it's a must-answer threat but not an instant game over.

flatluigi posted:

I think with rotation being pushed a year it'd be better to ban cards that are borderline than to let them continue to hang around, if just for freshness's sake

yeah basically. I think banning wandering emperor like some people have speculated is probably the most ridiculous out of any of them, it's strong but nowhere near these other cards.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:03

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

Captain Invictus posted:

eh, atraxa hitting the board, which is absolutely not difficult at all with the current standard, both either through reanimating it or hard casting it, is essentially game over right then and there. I can count on one hand the number of games where an enemy resolved atraxa still lead to a defeat for my opponent, it's just way too powerful in both refilling your hand and also being a game-ending threat. if it was a cast trigger, I would agree with you that it would be remotely reasonable in standard, but as a cheat into play target as well, it's too much. I don't think it's emrakul level, but I also think it's easier to get into play than emrakul since treasures have become so ubiquitous.

I admit I didn't play during smugglers copter era, but I did play during eldraine standard and it feels like a stronger mindmaze tome that instead of giving you four life gives you a creature, vehicle, and treasure at the end. I didn't play during the treasure map era either, but it feels like a better version of that too. it being an actual damaging threat once it's used up though, I can see that being justification for a ban.

and if invoke and shelly survive, I can see monoblack decks returning in force. invoke being such easy enchantment removal makes enchantment centric decks way squishier, and I think that's bad for the format. shelly sucks but I don't think deserves a ban, it's a must-answer threat but not an instant game over.

yeah basically. I think banning wandering emperor like some people have speculated is probably the most ridiculous out of any of them, it's strong but nowhere near these other cards.

Obviously the meta is going to look a lot different after Monday, but I have lost a decent amount after resolving an Atraxa in 5c ramp. Sometimes she's just too late and decks have lots of ways to get around her. I wouldn't be super surprised if she got banned, but idk if it's deserved tbh. Maybe they might get her just as a proactive thing like they did with Reflector Mage back in the day.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:05

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

Mind Maze doesn�t have the alternative game plan of attacking for 4 on turn 3, whilst outsizing most 3 drops, and dodging the most played removal. It�s an incredibly frustrating card for control to deal with, on multiple axes.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:12

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

Captain Invictus posted:

and if invoke and shelly survive, I can see monoblack decks returning in force. invoke being such easy enchantment removal makes enchantment centric decks way squishier, and I think that's bad for the format. shelly sucks but I don't think deserves a ban, it's a must-answer threat but not an instant game over.

You aren't playing invoke despair for the enchantment removal. Its just a happy bonus. Nobody is building a deck and saying "crap, i need enchantment removal, where are my invoke despairs?". This is more of the dromaka's command issue, except its out of a late game card. If this issue really were a problem, cards like Sheoldred's Edict is also a problem.

I have only cast invoke despair in modern and I feel silly talking about it as much as I have. I am just not a big fan of bans like reflector mage, oath of nissa, and Rampaging Ferocidon (and yes faithless looting). These are cards that died for other cards sin's. These large scale bans go far beyond toning down a decks strategy, but often times destroying the deck totally with the collateral damage.

Like, they banned bridge from below and left Hogaak unbanned for a time. It was a decision so headscratchingly bad that incompetence wasn't a good enough explanation. The more likely thought was "lets not ban a card that is currently in packs we are printing/selling" instead of banning the card needing the ban. So not only do you burn up more good will, you have to shame ban it a month later as well as good too far and ban my good friend faithless looting. Unforgivable.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:20

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

Lol calling this deck �Dragons� is a bit of an overstatement. I assumed it at least played the Dragon battle, but no it�s straight up just Ojutai.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:20

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

You really feel like you're getting away with something when you Sunfall, animate your guy, crew your Bankbuster and get in for a huge chunk of damage.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:21

Khanstant: Apr 5, 2007

Rinkles posted:

Brown brought up Invoke Despair as a problem when asked about black’s spot removal being too good. His point was that black is supposed to have very good removal, but that the ways you’d usually play around that, by bringing in walkers and enchantments, are countered by Invoke.

I took that as virtually confirming that it’ll be on the ban list.

Yeah that's what's annoying about it, it's covers too many weakspot that should remain weak spots. The card should also deal damage to yourself for the draws, not opponent.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:41

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

Sickening posted:

You aren't playing invoke despair for the enchantment removal. Its just a happy bonus.

oh no I didn't mean to insinuate that, but that invoke despair just happens to be extremely efficient(even if it misses it's useful) and just incidentally bludgeons enchantments at the same time, and since it's an extremely prevalent card it often hits some enchantment by accident.

also, my Academic order arrived! it's absurdly nice, obviously the big one is GIGANTIC but it's still just super obviously extremely high quality construction. I think I accidentally ordered an extra D20, but I guess that's fine, amethyst is my favorite gemstone and these are super nicely made. the sizemorph dividers are a really simple design but very effective, they compress almost completely flat but expand to fill any necessary space. great pickup. this is my first purchase from Gamegenic and I'm really happy with them.

really happy with my purchase, highly recommend picking one up if they do start stocking them in stores.

# ? May 28, 2023 21:42

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

I expect mono blue is in for a rough time after these bans, because even though it�s unlikely to be losing anything, and it might not currently be favored against the midrange decks that�ll probably see the biggest nerfs, it certainly isn�t favored against the aggro decks that are poised to take over.

# ? May 28, 2023 22:07

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

Enchantments straight up just aren't supposed to be a weak point for black anymore.

# ? May 28, 2023 23:20

Fuzzy Mammal: Aug 15, 2001; Lipstick Apathy

When you know the cube draft is gonna be interesting

# ? May 28, 2023 23:24

Silhouette: Nov 16, 2002; SONIC BOOM!!!

I'm gonna die laughing if the only ban is Fable

# ? May 28, 2023 23:31

Sickening: Jul 16, 2007; Black summer was the best summer.

reignonyourparade posted:

Enchantments straight up just aren't supposed to be a weak point for black anymore.

I think it being edict-able fine and balanced. In decks that are enchantment based , it�s often not a strong counter. It a serves its purpose of being a toolbox effect for things like chain in the rocks that might be the only enchantment in the deck.

That and I like having hope against leyline of the void sometimes.

# ? May 28, 2023 23:51

Simply Simon: Nov 6, 2010; 📡scanning🛰️ for good game 🎮design🦔🦔🦔

Sickening posted:

They don't want the esper charm incident to be possible anymore. They want someone who plays a land and immediately changes their mind to another land to be free information for you and a game that keeps going without someone yelling "judge". They want you to stop loving rules lawyering because it feels bad for everyone involved.

So most of the old 'gotchas" are not real things anymore. The few that exist still exist for good reasons but the trivial poo poo gets dumpstered. Take a card like Sheoldred for example. The drat thing triggers at least once a turn and draw step triggers are an awkward time in paper. because of this, you annoucing the life gain or the life loss comes with some flexibility. In order for two people to play the game in a reasonable way, both players don't need to stop everything they are doing and adjust life totals during the draw of each loving card. It can be shortcutted a bit for the sake of sanity of time. Yes, missing triggers is still possible but requires much more to be missed by most judges.

Players knowing this, do really silly things because they can't help themselves. The angle shooters of old will sometimes noticeable speed up their untapping and drawing in hopes try and get their opponent to miss the trigger. Its mostly scummy but judges understand that you trying to play at maximum speed doesn't just mean the trigger is missed. The goal is still allow for missed triggers , its just more rare and requires more burden for them to be missed. Like reasonable human beings should.

It does often require people to adapt to continue to be scumbags though. For example, a spirits player did some interesting things with their painlands, fastlands, and pathways. For example, he went through a great deal of effort to get them all in foil AND use the editions where they looked practically identical. You can't prove intent, but lets just say there might be some benefit to your opponent not being able to tell if your land was suppose to come into play tapped, do damage to you, or is neither. It just looks like a big pile of the same stuff. Curious? A lot of people thought so after I pointed it out.

The weekend was jam packed with fun, drama, and some magic. I enjoyed it.

Thank you for the explanation. As I said, I only played in one or two tournaments back in the day (and didn't like the competitive atmosphere at all) and then also stopped playing for almost 15 years, so various "eras" of judging are new to me. It's good to hear that things are getting more relaxed, all of these angle shooting anecdotes sound like a nightmare.

# ? May 28, 2023 23:54

Orange Fluffy Sheep: Jul 26, 2008; Bad EXP received

Rinkles posted:

Brown brought up Invoke Despair as a problem when asked about black�s spot removal being too good. His point was that black is supposed to have very good removal, but that the ways you�d usually play around that, by bringing in walkers and enchantments, are countered by Invoke.

I took that as virtually confirming that it�ll be on the ban list.

The rest of rakdos's removal is one-for-one but Invoke Despair can hit a whole bunch of angles at once at little cost. The only real counterplay is counterspells, and I guess
now Metropolis Reformer lmao.

There's just not much to do to not get blown the gently caress out.

# ? May 29, 2023 00:59

I brought my Drake: Jul 10, 2014; These high-G injections have some serious side effects after pulling so many jumps.

Fuzzy Mammal posted:

When you know the cube draft is gonna be interesting

Robert's Rules of Order? Y'all mean business.

# ? May 29, 2023 01:01

Dizz: Feb 14, 2010; L L

Captain Invictus posted:

oh no I didn't mean to insinuate that, but that invoke despair just happens to be extremely efficient(even if it misses it's useful) and just incidentally bludgeons enchantments at the same time, and since it's an extremely prevalent card it often hits some enchantment by accident.

also, my Academic order arrived! it's absurdly nice, obviously the big one is GIGANTIC but it's still just super obviously extremely high quality construction. I think I accidentally ordered an extra D20, but I guess that's fine, amethyst is my favorite gemstone and these are super nicely made. the sizemorph dividers are a really simple design but very effective, they compress almost completely flat but expand to fill any necessary space. great pickup. this is my first purchase from Gamegenic and I'm really happy with them.

really happy with my purchase, highly recommend picking one up if they do start stocking them in stores.

I regret not getting the counters and more of the spindown dices. the dice is beautiful and my only gripe is it is not a D20

# ? May 29, 2023 03:27

reignonyourparade: Nov 15, 2012

Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:

The rest of rakdos's removal is one-for-one but Invoke Despair can hit a whole bunch of angles at once at little cost. The only real counterplay is counterspells, and I guess
now Metropolis Reformer lmao.

There's just not much to do to not get blown the gently caress out.

Ablative creatures and enchantments is a counterplay (and strictly speaking I've even flashed in a wandering emperor to protect a planeswalker I cared more about but I will freely admit that is very specific.)

# ? May 29, 2023 03:53

Khanstant: Apr 5, 2007

I roll spindowns as d20s and I'll never stop

# ? May 29, 2023 04:48

GonSmithe: Apr 25, 2010; Perhaps it's in the nature of television. Just waves in space.

So even though we've known about it for a while, the chuds have found out Aragorn is black in the LOTR set and are swarming. It's getting attention from a bunch of outside-MTG weirdos too, thanks to Musk's lovely Twitter drawing all their poo poo comments to the top.

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1662881429074657280

# ? May 29, 2023 04:50

Khanstant: Apr 5, 2007

Garbage men post garbage on trash mountain

# ? May 29, 2023 04:57

fadam: Apr 23, 2008

GonSmithe posted:

So even though we've known about it for a while, the chuds have found out Aragorn is black in the LOTR set and are swarming. It's getting attention from a bunch of outside-MTG weirdos too, thanks to Musk's lovely Twitter drawing all their poo poo comments to the top.

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1662881429074657280

lol so your response to that is to magnify it even more by bringing it in here? Why call attention to it, we all know there are awful, lovely people on the internet.

# ? May 29, 2023 04:57

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

Dizz posted:

I regret not getting the counters and more of the spindown dices. the dice is beautiful and my only gripe is it is not a D20

wait it's not a d20?

Khanstant posted:

I roll spindowns as d20s and I'll never stop

oh is this a thing? Why?

# ? May 29, 2023 05:24

flatluigi: Apr 23, 2008; here come the planes

spindowns have the numbers in order going around the dice so it's easier to find adjacent numbers, but that has the effect that you can fairly easily roll a spindown to give you a high/low number when you want with practice (compared to an actual d20 having its numbers evenly distributed)

# ? May 29, 2023 05:28

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

Oh that seems dumb to get mad about. Just cup your hands together and roll it around in there to get it all jumbled up first before rolling, ezpz

I join the "spindown as d20" party

# ? May 29, 2023 05:31

Other: Jul 10, 2007; Post it easy!

I hope they aren't actually making Anduril an actual flaming sword in the set and that piece of art is just a bad visual metaphor

# ? May 29, 2023 05:42

Jabor: Jul 16, 2010; #1 Loser at SpaceChem

Captain Invictus posted:

Oh that seems dumb to get mad about. Just cup your hands together and roll it around in there to get it all jumbled up first before rolling, ezpz

I join the "spindown as d20" party

"It's really easy to cheat by deliberately rolling high" is not something you can solve by changing the way you personally roll it.

The only time it's an acceptable d20 for rolling is if you're doing odd-or-even.

# ? May 29, 2023 05:43

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Most dice traditionally have opposite faces be the same sum, and intersperse low and high numbers with a reasonably even distribution. 1 across from 20, 2 across from 19 etc.

I don't care if you do roll a spin-down. If both people rolle the same dice it doesn't really matter imo. But they're not properly distributed to function as a real d20 it is true.

# ? May 29, 2023 05:44

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 5, 2024 00:36

Khanstant: Apr 5, 2007

My actual d20s are weighted so pick your poison

# ? May 29, 2023 07:49

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Magic: the Gathering: I play a larger and larger green man

«‹›1157 »