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Yes it is tragic that hope for a good future is snuffed out by a revenge plot rooted in the past. It's very gundam
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May 29, 2023 16:13
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The Ur looks good in Heavyarms colors. https://twitter.com/sioagisoluto/status/1662740786549776384
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May 29, 2023 16:14
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https://twitter.com/MLGNobleEditor/status/1663023123174944768?t=ndHow_JwIxnMIvuv9-CrIw&s=19
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May 29, 2023 16:30
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ninjewtsu posted:So the thing is the earthians know all that too right? But they offer to meet miorine despite it, which I think is demonstrative proof that there is room for compromise. One of the lines that struck me was a random background earthian saying "the war partitioning was bad enough but this new crackdown is unbearable!" I think the earth leaders are also caught in a "no good way forward, pick the least bad path" scenario (seems to be a theme with the show huh?). Like what are they going to do, endless protests until the whole earthian population has been stomped flat? They're not going to go to war with benerit, that's not something they can win, benerit quite literally has all of the weapons and expecting DoF to pull enough plant quettas to force benerit to surrender entirely and effectively dissolve as an organization (or at least restructure into something unrecognizable from the current benerit) is not a particularly appealing position I'm sure. The issue I have isn't just the actual negotiating parties, it's the people they have to sell their negotiation results to for those results to mean anything. Just like Miorine has to sell scaling back Earthian oppression to the Benerit Group which I've babbled about endlessly, the Earthian leaders have to sell whatever deal they make to their followers. Do you think those followers are going to accept something like "In our landmark negotiation with the Benerit Group, we've managed to get them to agree to only fight proxy wars in the middle of a city on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and to limit the amount of people they permanently disappear into black sites during extrajudicial investigations to only 1000!" That last point I think is what sticks with me with thinking the concept of negotiations is a joke. Benerit is so awful and their power is so omnipresent and absolute that they can just extrajudicially disappear 1500 people for no reason with no retribution as part of an investigation to try to find an unrelated terrorist group, and no one in power in Benerit except for Miorine has a problem with this, which should really set the tone for how Benerit's higher ups think of their rights and privileges with regard to Earthians. This isn't a company representative negotiating with a workers' union, it's a slave owner's representative negotiating with slaves. The slave owner's representative might like the slaves and have the best of intentions, but she's employed by and beholden to the slave owners, who are not going to agree to let the slaves go, and it seems implausible that the slaves are going to peacefully agree to stop agitating because the owners promise to only beat them once per day instead of twice. Kanos fucked around with this message at 16:39 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 16:35
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Kanos posted:The issue I have isn't just the actual negotiating parties, it's the people they have to sell their negotiation results to for those results to mean anything. Just like Miorine has to sell scaling back Earthian oppression to the Benerit Group which I've babbled about endlessly, the Earthian leaders have to sell whatever deal they make to their followers. Do you think those followers are going to accept something like "In our landmark negotiation with the Benerit Group, we've managed to get them to agree to only fight proxy wars in the middle of a city on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and to limit the amount of people they permanently disappear into black sites during extrajudicial investigations to only 1000!" ok but in this comparison if miorine wins the election she becomes the king of the slave holders
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May 29, 2023 16:44
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ninjewtsu posted:ok but in this comparison if miorine wins the election she becomes the king of the slave holders Yeah and the last king of the slave holders had multiple assassination attempts against him because the board members didn't like the way he did business. Miorine becoming president and unilaterally deciding to end the exploitation of Earth would be met with a similar response.
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May 29, 2023 16:46
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ninjewtsu posted:ok but in this comparison if miorine wins the election she becomes the king of the slave holders Elected leader of the slaveholders, still somewhat beholden to their wants and desires or else she gets voted out, assassinated, or couped. As Arc Hammer says, Delling had people trying to kill him and take the spot, and Delling was making them shitloads of money. Miorine's position would be infinitely weaker to begin with, especially if she wanted to push policies that would hurt the bottom line.
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May 29, 2023 16:54
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This isn't to say that Miorine wasn't right to try for a peaceful solution, far from it. But it does emphasize again that she's inexperienced with the realities of the world outside of the corporate sphere. She wants a world free from war and Gundams for Suletta. She wants a peaceful solution to Earthican exploitation. "Ideals alone are not enough to change the world."
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May 29, 2023 16:58
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Yeah, my whole thought experiment here is about the broad situation, not the specific character motivations involved. Of course Miorine is going to go for the idealistic, peaceful solution, because that's who she is, and I don't really have an issue with that. I just don't think there was any actual way for her to succeed even if Prospera hadn't been Prospera.
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May 29, 2023 17:01
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The SAL isnt just going to walk into plant quetta, I mean they shouldnt, it just got hit with a terrorist attack and I'm going to assume they wont let a ship with two civilians dock when comms exist and Prosperas lieutenant is going to tell them to be on the lookout for them. Speaking of that guy, we literally still dont know anything about him when we already got the lowdown on Rajan like 5 episodes ago. Except we know the investigators have a talent for getting into places they shouldn't. If they can get into Asticassia quietly, Plant Quetta's not out of the question.
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May 29, 2023 17:03
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Except we know the investigators have a talent for getting into places they shouldn't. If they can get into Asticassia quietly, Plant Quetta's not out of the question. Theres a difference between not expecting someone to be snooping around and shooting one of them and knowing where the other is going. It is a high security, isolated front that just went through a terrorist attack. I would expect every ship to be inspected and they will really have to sell how they'd be able to sneak in.
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May 29, 2023 17:46
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Kanos posted:Elected leader of the slaveholders, still somewhat beholden to their wants and desires or else she gets voted out, assassinated, or couped. As Arc Hammer says, Delling had people trying to kill him and take the spot, and Delling was making them shitloads of money. Miorine's position would be infinitely weaker to begin with, especially if she wanted to push policies that would hurt the bottom line. "can't unilaterally end oppression" is very different from "can't create meaningful change in the system". the idea isn't that she gets elected and says "ok no more war partitioning" but it gives the earthians a real, actual voice in having their needs and situation considered in the decisions that affect their world. essentially earthian representation in the politics of benerit, giving them a seat at the table to play the game instead of just being the board. the earthians can scheme and consolidate power over time too. the fear of that was the real reason ochs earth got eliminated, it's extremely valuable. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 17:52 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 17:49
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I can see a weakened benerit group not having a choice. Like Jeturk Industries being on top even though they were about to hit bankruptcy, Grassley already having sold off a ton of assets and confidence shaken by the Yellow Son incident and whatever is going to happen to Peil. It could lead to the point that Mio can advocate for Earth to be added as a shareholder to the Group for mutual cooperation and the SAL deciding that they would rather keep their colonies thank you very much. Thats a potential avenue for another season, but the only way it could happen is if QZ doesnt go off without a hitch.
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May 29, 2023 18:13
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Sure but that's assumptions based off of what we as the audience know and not what Miorine knows at the moment that she's engaging in negotiations. She's still playing with a deck of cards that Prospera provided her and isn't privy to bigger picture information that can influence her decision making.
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May 29, 2023 18:18
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ninjewtsu posted:"can't unilaterally end oppression" is very different from "can't create meaningful change in the system". the idea isn't that she gets elected and says "ok no more war partitioning" but it gives the earthians a real, actual voice in having their needs and situation considered in the decisions that affect their world. essentially earthian representation in the politics of benerit, giving them a seat at the table to play the game instead of just being the board. the earthians can scheme and consolidate power over time too. the fear of that was the real reason ochs earth got eliminated, it's extremely valuable. Ochs Earth is a pretty good example of what happens in this setting when Earthians start acquiring enough resources and power that Spacians feel threatened, actually! An Earth-based corporation suddenly became a viable competitor to the entrenched Spacian system and they extremely rapidly ginned up a reason to wipe them out with open military force, because that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances by the power brokers in the current environment. I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that if a system is sufficiently corrupt and evil, you kind of can't change it meaningfully without breaking it. To use an example from another Okouchi joint, Suzaku joined the Britannian Empire to try to change it from within, and peep how that worked out. Cao Ni Ma posted:I can see a weakened benerit group not having a choice. Like Jeturk Industries being on top even though they were about to hit bankruptcy, Grassley already having sold off a ton of assets and confidence shaken by the Yellow Son incident and whatever is going to happen to Peil. It could lead to the point that Mio can advocate for Earth to be added as a shareholder to the Group for mutual cooperation and the SAL deciding that they would rather keep their colonies thank you very much. Thats a potential avenue for another season, but the only way it could happen is if QZ doesnt go off without a hitch. This is honestly closer to what Shaddiq is trying to achieve - cripple the Benerit group internally while simultaneously handing off tons of their assets to Earthians, rapidly redressing the balance of power in a way that conflict on Earth goes from "low cost proxy wars where we incidentally stomp on unarmed civilians" to "horribly expensive boondoggle against a well-armed regional power". It's just that Shaddiq's approach gives Earthians a seat at the table forcefully, rather than hoping it happens organically and peacefully. Kanos fucked around with this message at 18:34 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 18:30
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I think it's funny that the thing that will screw over Shaddiq isn't really Prospera blowing up his stockpile or his terrorist attacks failing to kill Delling, but his inability to get over the fact that Miorine won't date his sorry rear end. He liked Guel back in season 1 because he felt that Guel was just like him, treating Miorine as a prize to be protected because she was so pure unlike the rest of the corporate world. Now that Miorine has blood on her hands thanks to Prospera, Shaddiq is seemingly less concerned about his connection to DOF being sussed out than he is furious that Miorine's perfect image in his mind has been "defiled" by Guel not protecting her from the reality of the world. Guy has an obsession with Miorine and her supposed Innocence and purity and he comes off like an obsessive idol stalker who gets furious if he discovers she has a boyfriend outside of her public life. It's really amusing that he's so pathetic.
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May 29, 2023 18:38
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Theres a difference between not expecting someone to be snooping around and shooting one of them and knowing where the other is going. It is a high security, isolated front that just went through a terrorist attack. I would expect every ship to be inspected and they will really have to sell how they'd be able to sneak in. I'm aware of that, I just meant that if anyone could sneak into Plant Quetta quietly despite everything happening it'd be them.
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May 29, 2023 18:52
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Arc Hammer posted:I think it's funny that the thing that will screw over Shaddiq isn't really Prospera blowing up his stockpile or his terrorist attacks failing to kill Delling, but his inability to get over the fact that Miorine won't date his sorry rear end. Guel said it already: Shaddiq is a coward. Risking anything for Miorine means he could lose, and he can't ever lose. Guel was "safe" as the original Holder because no way Miorine would ever develop feelings for him, not Precious Spacian Princess Miorine. Then Suletta came into scene, Miorine starts changing, and Shaddiq can't stand that - but he would've never dueled Guel in the first place because what if he didn't win? He stacked everything he could in the team duel and still got blasted, and Miorine put the kibosh on anything that could have developed between them for good. But that's Suletta's fault, right? Then the big betrayal happens, Guel the Safe Choice is back... and nope, Precious Spacian Princess Miorine is still changed. Which can't be right, because for Shaddiq, Miorine cannot do anything wrong. She can't do anything, that requires agency, and a princess should not have (does not need) that.
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May 29, 2023 19:25
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Dude calls himself The Prince and wants to protect his mental image of Miorine as the fairytale Princess he wins as a reward for being the hero. Hence why he didn't attack anyone at Quinn Harbour because he felt things would work out since there's no way a perfect princess like Miorine would ever do something so heinous. And if something g heinous happens its obviously not her fault butt he fault of some other guy who couldn't protect her. He's such a slimy piece of poo poo. The reveal that the Grassley girls are all also "re-educated" earthicans who went to the Grassley Acedemy makes me wonder something else. If Shaddiq's clout with the Earthicans comes down to his ability to get results that benefit them, what happens when he's unable to provide anymore? Sabina has always acted as his 2nd in command but she does question him on whether he's making wise choices. If his obsession with Miorine gets in the way of his promises to Earthicans does Sabina ditch him and take the less sociopathic Grassley girls with her?
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May 29, 2023 19:33
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Arc Hammer posted:Dude calls himself The Prince and wants to protect his mental image of Miorine as the fairytale Princess he wins as a reward for being the hero. Hence why he didn't attack anyone at Quinn Harbour because he felt things would work out since there's no way a perfect princess like Miorine would ever do something so heinous. And if something g heinous happens its obviously not her fault butt he fault of some other guy who couldn't protect her. He's such a slimy piece of poo poo. If he's still the president of Grassley? Probably not, but that position is in danger now thanks to what Guel learned.
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May 29, 2023 19:36
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Sabina already had to pull on his reins once when he was loudly wondering about supporting Miorine's bid for the Group presidency. And now he's badly misread the situation because of his fixation on the space princess.
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May 29, 2023 19:43
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I could see Ireesha ditching alongside Sabina if it came down to it. Maisie is a sociopath and Henao feels too much like a Yes Man to turn on Shaddiq. Renee is a wild card though and I don't know if she's ride or die for Shaddiq or if her own self-absorbed personality will win out over loyalty.
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May 29, 2023 19:48
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Arc Hammer posted:Dude calls himself The Prince and wants to protect his mental image of Miorine as the fairytale Princess he wins as a reward for being the hero. Hence why he didn't attack anyone at Quinn Harbour because he felt things would work out since there's no way a perfect princess like Miorine would ever do something so heinous. And if something g heinous happens its obviously not her fault butt he fault of some other guy who couldn't protect her. He's such a slimy piece of poo poo. If she survives the upcoming fight then I can see her easily falling in line with Mio once things pan out. But the issue is that right now they may end up in a fight or flight scenario and not be given the chance. I dont think she'll cut off Shaddiq that quickly because they are already into Grassley and theres no reason to believe that things will be better with Mio after the recent events. If Shaddiq was a real idiot and didnt vet the corporate sales or whatever and it ended up being sent to SAL front companies then I can see her flipping before things get really bad for them, because that would prove that Shaddiq's plan never stood a chance.
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May 29, 2023 19:53
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Arc Hammer posted:I could see Ireesha ditching alongside Sabina if it came down to it. Maisie is a sociopath and Henao feels too much like a Yes Man to turn on Shaddiq. Renee is a wild card though and I don't know if she's ride or die for Shaddiq or if her own self-absorbed personality will win out over loyalty. I think Shaddiq has surrounded himself with people of great strength. which could backfire at pretty much any moment plus as a narrative point he has been lurking in the shadows for way to long for something to not happen to him
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May 29, 2023 19:54
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Sabina pulls a Kycelia and headshots Shaddiq after he admits to some poor decision that betrays her trust in him. May or may not be followed up with Nika headshotting Sabina with a rocket launcher in turn. EDIT https://twitter.com/G_Witch_M/status/1662738982315393026?t=_7udOGkOyMc4oh5KiIm5Lg&s=19 Do you think he'll just do a radio show himself or will he voice various Elans to make up the difference? Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:11 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 19:59
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Arc Hammer posted:I could see Ireesha ditching alongside Sabina if it came down to it. Maisie is a sociopath and Henao feels too much like a Yes Man to turn on Shaddiq. Renee is a wild card though and I don't know if she's ride or die for Shaddiq or if her own self-absorbed personality will win out over loyalty. Ireesha and Maisie are best friends, so they will probably stick by each other.
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May 29, 2023 20:12
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Ireesha gets wasted by a stray shot and Maisie  her way into hell
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May 29, 2023 20:14
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Arc Hammer posted:Sabina pulls a Kycelia and headshots Shaddiq after he admits to some poor decision that betrays her trust in him. He'll get an echo filter for the
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May 29, 2023 20:20
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Ireesha and Maisie being besties would make them splitting along ideological lines more juicy. Ireesha just berating Maisie nonstop about putting her drat shoes up on the couch. https://twitter.com/ShaTheArtistY/status/1663167781578194945?t=wU9DzrreOWHWj--4r-SNIg&s=19
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May 29, 2023 20:22
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I'm aware of that, I just meant that if anyone could sneak into Plant Quetta quietly despite everything happening it'd be them. Agreed on this. Case in point, Feng and her partner managed to get to Belmeria and spirit her away long enough from Prospera's right-hand man that they can convince Belmeria to help them. From the way Prospera's right-hand man acted, Prospera must've given him instructions to watch over Belmeria like a hawk just in case she decides to double-cross them. Traveller posted:Ireesha gets wasted by a stray shot and Maisie The lack of sympathetic framing for any of Shaddiq's squad makes me think they're gonna be prime cannon fodder once actual war starts. Turns out Shaddiq's the actual Jerid of the show all along and is gonna have so many dead girlfriends. 
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May 29, 2023 20:22
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Kanos posted:Ochs Earth is a pretty good example of what happens in this setting when Earthians start acquiring enough resources and power that Spacians feel threatened, actually! An Earth-based corporation suddenly became a viable competitor to the entrenched Spacian system and they extremely rapidly ginned up a reason to wipe them out with open military force, because that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances by the power brokers in the current environment. drat i wonder if having the president of benerit on their side could have changed anything for ochs earth Kanos posted:I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that if a system is sufficiently corrupt and evil, you kind of can't change it meaningfully without breaking it. To use an example from another Okouchi joint, Suzaku joined the Britannian Empire to try to change it from within, and peep how that worked out. are we talking about your opinion of the topic of corrupt systems or how the show intends for us to read miorine's actions and her competency?
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May 29, 2023 20:24
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Arc Hammer posted:I could see Ireesha ditching alongside Sabina if it came down to it. Maisie is a sociopath and Henao feels too much like a Yes Man to turn on Shaddiq. Renee is a wild card though and I don't know if she's ride or die for Shaddiq or if her own self-absorbed personality will win out over loyalty. Renee will turn on Shaddiq when he insults Backup Boyfriend Number 14. Anyway, I'm fulling expecting Shaddiq to put two and two together and figure out Prospera is the true manipulator behind the scenes. And then to trying to off her in a way that goes very, very bad for him.
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May 29, 2023 21:00
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ninjewtsu posted:drat i wonder if having the president of benerit on their side could have changed anything for ochs earth The president of Benerit is a position that is elected by shareholders and has to give a poo poo about their desires on some level, because if they don't they will be ousted either by vote or by someone planting a bomb on their ship. The shareholders are all spacian capitalists. The last time that earth challenged spacian capitalists, they were brutally murdered and slapped down. That happened *before* Delling became president, by the way. quote:are we talking about your opinion of the topic of corrupt systems or how the show intends for us to read miorine's actions and her competency? I think the show is pretty clear on how you're supposed to read Miorine's actions: ideals on their own can't change anything, and she went into this with ideals and little else. I think it draws a direct parallel to when she originally pitched GUND-ARM - she did the legwork, came up with a viable business model, and made a professional pitch...and then completely fell flat and failed because she assumed that she would be judged solely on her merits and that everyone would respond in good faith. In that situation, she had to compromise her ideals and pride and go to dad for help because she needed power and influence *before* she could start effecting change. The comparative action here would have been to sell out first, sell some guns, and use that to build her clout and power base so that she had a base of support to take more radical action. Kanos fucked around with this message at 21:17 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 21:10
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Kanos posted:The president of Benerit is a position that is elected by shareholders and has to give a poo poo about their desires on some level, because if they don't they will be ousted either by vote or by someone planting a bomb on their ship. The shareholders are all spacian capitalists. The last time that earth challenged spacian capitalists, they were brutally murdered and slapped down. That happened *before* Delling became president, by the way. Benerit didn't exist at the time You seem to be under the presumption that the president has no autonomous authority aside from being a puppet of the large stake holders. and I think delling having a massive conspiratorial project and openly flaunting the lack of rules that restrain him proves that is not the case. Again. No, miorine can not make major, sweeping changes. She can give the earthians power and a voice that may or may not be overruled by the rest of benerit on a case by case basis. They would have to """play the game""" not immediately declare victory, and a miorine president would at least be able to moderate extreme anti-earthian action and help provide a wedge for another ochs earth to get their foot in the door, because having friends in high places is helpful even if the amount of help they can provide is limited by the politics of the system. Kanos posted:I think the show is pretty clear on how you're supposed to read Miorine's actions: ideals on their own can't change anything, and she went into this with ideals and little else. I think we're supposed to read the earthian leaders being willing to talk with her and support her as an indication that yes, if she became president good things would happen to them that would make her worth supporting. It is true that this is invalidated by prospera but I thought this argument was about how miorine's attempts were doomed from the start because she had nothing to offer the earthian leaders, as the only goal they're looking for is the dissolution of benerit. I posit: no, the earthians had a lot to gain from a miorine presidency so without the prospera conspiratorial element it was a good plan on its face. whether her downfall was due to only having ideals or missing the 4th conspiracy surrounding her or whatever, it wasn't because a president willing to broker with the earthian leaders is inherently doomed. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 21:35 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 21:22
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https://twitter.com/odekoojisan/status/1663183309650923520?t=-px3Dh7z5-rXJKGGZdq3sA&s=19
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May 29, 2023 21:31
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Arc Hammer posted:Shame about that whole massacre for derailing the negotiations, then. Real shame, that. Yup that's the obvious and textual narrative in the episode.
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May 29, 2023 21:32
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ninjewtsu posted:Benerit didn't exist at the time Benerit didn't exist, but the companies that make up Benerit did. Sarius was a lead player in those events, and Delling wasn't even a corporate guy yet, he was still functionally a military representative. Delling is actually pretty good example of what the position of president entails - he's a 20 year incumbent of the position, with the explicit support of the military and decades of successful leadership behind him doing exactly what the Group wants - making tons of money - and he *still* has people trying to kill him. How much more vulnerable would a brand new elect with a weak personal company and shaky support be? quote:I think we're supposed to read the earthian leaders being willing to talk with her and support her as an indication that yes, if she became president good things would happen to them that would make her worth supporting. The goal they're looking for is actually larger than the dissolution of Benerit, which is "Spacians stop using our planet for proxy wars", which is something that more than just Benerit does. I think we're down to quibbling over semantics at this point, because I think "Miorine's plans are easily and completely derailed and annihilated by one faction scheming against her" is pretty clear proof to me that her plans were doomed from the start and had no real chance of success. I don't think it actually matters if the Earthians are willing to talk about it to her if her position is that shaky to begin with, because there's going to be plenty of people in the way of her effecting any kind of positive change.
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May 29, 2023 21:43
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I'd like to point out that the assassination attempts are actually a good example of how absolutely strong the president's seat is. They are presented as the only good way for anyone to affect change outside of somehow changing Delling's mind. And Delling seemed totally aware of them and allowing them to give it a try. And notably going against Delling and forcing an election never seemed to be a thought in anyone's mind while Delling was, yaknow, not in a coma. The election is only happening because they have a chance to basically declare him dead. Even when he was obviously loving people over at a moment's whim and making blatantly hypocritical decisions with the reason of "because I am king", no one openly questioned or even hinting at an election. The entire election is intended to game the system while his successor is too young to put the kibosh on it with the power of the presidency to back them up. So having the presidency would at least make everyone shut up and bend the knee openly, even if privately they might be considering assassination.
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May 29, 2023 22:08
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Kanos posted:I think we're down to quibbling over semantics at this point, because I think "Miorine's plans are easily and completely derailed and annihilated by one faction scheming against her" is pretty clear proof to me that her plans were doomed from the start and had no real chance of success. that's a weird conclusion to draw from the statement given. "anything that fails was always going to fail" maybe makes sense when talking about a deterministic universe but not when judging the merits of a position. getting hosed over by prospera is like losing a race to an olympic athlete. i'm curious why you think the earthians said they'd stop protesting in support of her. if she had nothing to offer, why give her that support? Kchama posted:I'd like to point out that the assassination attempts are actually a good example of how absolutely strong the president's seat is. They are presented as the only good way for anyone to affect change outside of somehow changing Delling's mind. And Delling seemed totally aware of them and allowing them to give it a try. And notably going against Delling and forcing an election never seemed to be a thought in anyone's mind while Delling was, yaknow, not in a coma. The election is only happening because they have a chance to basically declare him dead. Even when he was obviously loving people over at a moment's whim and making blatantly hypocritical decisions with the reason of "because I am king", no one openly questioned or even hinting at an election. The entire election is intended to game the system while his successor is too young to put the kibosh on it with the power of the presidency to back them up. definitely notable that despite everyone wanting delling dead no one ever actually managed to kill him. like the position comes with some kind of inherent power that gives you the tools necessary to protect against that sort of thing. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 22:32 on May 29, 2023 |
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May 29, 2023 22:28
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Arc Hammer posted:Guy has an obsession with Miorine and her supposed Innocence and purity and he comes off like an obsessive idol stalker who gets furious if he discovers she has a boyfriend outside of her public life. It's really amusing that he's so pathetic. It's great
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May 29, 2023 22:35
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