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Neeksy posted:There was a comment earlier about the new Clone High feeling 'slight' and I think that's more a reflection on modern comedy sensibilities that are less gag-a-minute shotgun blasts of wit, the comedy is a lot less densely-packed now. We don't have 30 Rocks these days. So, it's worse? Because that sounds worse.
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Jun 1, 2023 07:33
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It’s still good but yes lol
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Jun 1, 2023 08:41
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:So, it's worse? Because that sounds worse. I like it more dense, myself.
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Jun 1, 2023 09:00
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Watched eps 3&4 of nu Clone High and basically I stand by what I just said it’s still pretty drat good and funny but doesn’t have the joke density or unique tone to be an all-timer like the original run.
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Jun 1, 2023 11:16
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Neeksy posted:I dunno how to describe the current trend other than a refocus towards character and story without wanting to puncture or take people out of the moment via gags. Honestly I think a good use-case of this is comparing, say, season 5 of The Simpsons to one of the more current seasons. In addition to a lot of the problems that a super-long-runner like The Simpsons is naturally going to have, one of the things that really stands out as a difference is the joke density and the level of credit they give their audience with their jokes. I don't even mean that the jokes are "dumber", more that the modern iteration of the show seems to be afraid that the audience is going to miss a gag, so they just end up drawing attention to and explaining every joke they try to make to make sure the people in the cheap seats get what they're trying for. Compare that to season 5 where an episode is so dense with jokes that the average viewer is likely to just completely gloss over half of the punchlines their first time watching. This is actually kind of an interesting phenomenon when you couple it with the fact that The Simpsons' plotting and storytelling has gotten weirdly competent in recent seasons? It feels like the current writing team has actually been making a conscious effort to get away from the "character randomly appears in a scene without explanation because they are necessary to the plot" issues the show had in seasons 20+ and they're actually doing proper set up and payoff with plot points, but the show still isn't really funny? I think the shift in focus you're describing is really more a reflection of the increasing corporatization of media and the fact that the entertainment industry is increasingly being consolidated under the ownership of fewer and fewer companies. The entertainment industry is taking fewer risks and consistently streamlining what it churns out to be as profitable as possible and, unfortunately, what is most profitable is not necessarily exceptional series that appeal heavily to a niche audience, but "okay" properties that appeal to everyone without really excelling in any particular way.
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Jun 1, 2023 15:26
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I think we just have different ways of conceiving of story now as well, for good or ill. Part of that is corporate homogenization, and the associated mechanical processes that make it efficient to tell narrative stories under the current corporate system, but I think there's just also the way story is taught and conceived of has shifted. The idea that things have to have points, and that episodes should have overall messages that all elements are holistically driving towards, is the seemingly dominant modality, and so it's harder to make rapid fire nonsense fit into that conception.
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Jun 1, 2023 15:36
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A confusing thing about The Simpsons now is that so much about the show was initially set up to lampoon other sitcoms or have fun with the format of contemporary television and pop culture, and neither of those really exist anymore. The fact that Homer Simpson was working as a safety inspector for a nuclear power plant but treating it like just a normal factory job was itself a joke. I think also the fact that modern media tries to be more sensitive and less nihilistic (well, maybe not modern Simpsons) means that it's harder to fill a space with punchy gags, and in fact a lot of shows are willing to spend more time on setting the mood anyways. And when shows do get nihilistic, it's more of a dark moment than just the freedom to fill the empty void with gags.
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Jun 1, 2023 17:56
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So the new clone high is worse, got it.
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Jun 1, 2023 20:36
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I mean, worse suggests that it's BAD but I'd argue it's still pretty enjoyable. It's just not quite as great as the first season was.
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Jun 1, 2023 20:39
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Realistically given a 20 year hiatus we are lucky we got something worth watching at all
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Jun 1, 2023 20:46
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I don’t know, I just finished episode 3 and I feel like that one hangs pretty easily with the original run. Heebie Jeebie was great. I miss Toots though.
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Jun 1, 2023 20:50
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I know Dexter's Lab chat is over but I just want to say the Speed Racer episode deserves to be shown in college classes. Not sure what kind of college classes but something somewhere
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Jun 1, 2023 21:03
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mutantIke posted:I know Dexter's Lab chat is over but I just want to say the Speed Racer episode deserves to be shown in college classes. Not sure what kind of college classes but something somewhere The episodes clearly inspired by some anime were always my favorites or maybe I'm just a sucker for giant robots.
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Jun 1, 2023 21:34
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mutantIke posted:I know Dexter's Lab chat is over but I just want to say the Speed Racer episode deserves to be shown in college classes. Not sure what kind of college classes but something somewhere It's why I wish Genndy would go back to doing comedy. I know he wants to do serious stuff, but god drat he could produce some amazing comedy. Justice Friends could have been a whole show on its own, dammit! As for The Simpsons, as KingKalamari said, the show is more interested in plotting but it really cannot deliver a joke to save its life anymore. The pacing, timing, and voice direction are all off, with decent jokes being strangled in the crib. All in all I agree with the critique put forth about the various forces intersecting to make tv writing and presentation the way it is currently, for good or for ill. It feels like having lived through yet another horrifying backwards Republican administration but this time triple-concentrated and mask-off about being neoconfederate fascists might have had an effect on the writers rooms in addition to the conglomeration of media, overall risk-aversion on the management level, the inherent conservatism of many investment/credit institutions around stuff that can even be considered mildly adult (a la the original downfall of Tumblr), and more. Hell, even Family Guy attempts more plot-focused episodes rather than going for gag-a-minute mania. I still enjoy American Dad even though it has also changed wildly from its original incarnation; it's found really inventive ways to find new rhythms and story ideas, and maintained pretty solid voice direction. Another thing that might also contribute to the way things are is how board artists and writers are more sequestered off from each other, and thus miss out on countless opportunities to add jokes/gags that a less visually-oriented writer might not have considered or foreseen.
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Jun 1, 2023 22:01
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Neeksy posted:It's why I wish Genndy would go back to doing comedy. I know he wants to do serious stuff, but god drat he could produce some amazing comedy. Justice Friends could have been a whole show on its own, dammit! Val Hallen was such a great superhero pun mashup in an era full of heavy competition. Like a triple-changer of a gag
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Jun 2, 2023 01:11
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Nikumatic posted:I don’t know, I just finished episode 3 and I feel like that one hangs pretty easily with the original run. Heebie Jeebie was great. Episode 3 was the best so far. 4 was a bit of a step down but I'll be content if they can hit the level of 3 a couple more times.
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Jun 2, 2023 12:56
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SlothfulCobra posted:A confusing thing about The Simpsons now is that so much about the show was initially set up to lampoon other sitcoms or have fun with the format of contemporary television and pop culture, and neither of those really exist anymore. The fact that Homer Simpson was working as a safety inspector for a nuclear power plant but treating it like just a normal factory job was itself a joke. Zombie Simpsons is a case study in the lifecycle of Counter Culture Media. In its initial seven to nine seasons it was so transgressive that Presidential Candidate/Future President George HW Bush used it as a part of his culture war platform. "We should see families more like the Waltons, and fewer like the Simpsons" or something there about. My mother was aghast, AGHAST!, when I would try to sneak watching it as a kid. But it was amazingly successful. Thus, as we all know by know, the counter cultural icon and anti-capitalism media was subsumed into capital and used to reinforce itself. Part of that success created the real problem with the fall in quality, in how the writers and actors that made the show so successful moved on from the show itself. They were rightfully recognized as top talent and were able to move on to things they'd either rather do or just generally onto bigger and more prestigious things. So after those first golden seasons the writers who were able to create and maintain the pace of 4-5 jokes per minute just weren't there and the new ones didn't have enough mentors in the writer's room to teach them. The other pitfall of Counter Culture Media is that culture changes. A huge part of culture is also the actual medium of entertainment. As has been pointed out here (and in myriad hour plus long video essays) the main target of The Simpsons were family sitcoms and the idea of "The American Family". Those aren't culture anymore, sure family sitcoms still exist on Broadcast TV to a degree but they're just a vestigial component of television that won't die because there are enough boomers out there who will watch it and they're carried by other prestige TV to cheaply and easily fill in time slots. The other issues is that TV itself is no longer something that dominates culture. Now it's infinite scroll, micro-length, clips on apps. You can't make a parody of that on TV outside of a single, throwaway, joke because of the vast format differences and the fact that meme culture has a brain meltingly fast lifecycle. South Park used to be famous for how insanely fast they could get an episode out referencing something that happened in the news within 48 hours. Even they can't keep that pace anymore to the point they've given up in favor for season long arcs that just reference general new trends of the last few months/year. The Simpsons thing used to be poking fun at the sitcom tropes that were already well worn by the time they came along. Those tropes are dead now and trying to adapt to modern culture is impossible for them with their production schedule. Hilariously and ironically it was Family Guy of all things that survived this shift to TikTok/Insta-reels because it's cutaway gags were the perfect fit for the format. But even that's not really enough because even though people share those a lot, it doesn't translate into people actually watching the show. Culture changes, and if a Counter Culture Media can't keep up with the change they either just become a part of a grey landscape, indistinguishable from the things that it originally critiqued, or it dies. Like National Lampoon Magazine. Started as a way to make fun of print magazines of the day, along with general other counter culture stories/comics/etc, but print media died so now it's gone. Even with the movies it couldn't keep up, and it couldn't adapt to what it needed to turn into to survive. I'm not really sure just what mainstream counter culture media could or does really look like these days. Black Mirror couldn't last very long without degrading down into just being a horror anthology. Disco Elysium was a great example that is now in the process of being destroyed as money interests subsume it into capital. Best I can see is it's the massive decentralized meme culture that is created for it's own sake, but even that is monetized by capital completely. Crain fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jun 2, 2023 |
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Jun 2, 2023 14:35
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Chinston Wurchill posted:Episode 3 was the best so far. 4 was a bit of a step down but I'll be content if they can hit the level of 3 a couple more times. Yep, watched 4 last night and conversely think it’s the weakest episode of the season to date; the constant pumpkin spice latte jokes felt exactly like what you would be afraid of a series doing when it’s rebooting and trying to comment on the culture they missed during the twenty year period. Also pretty trite Cleo vs Joan plot. I have nothing but good things to say about Cleo’s new voice actress though, she’s fantastic and essentially makes a seamless transition from the original series.
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Jun 2, 2023 16:08
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One of strangest things about the newer seasons of the Simpsons is that they have more of these deeper focuses on the side characters. There's an episode about the Simpsons' early days living next to the Flanders and the birth of Rod and Todd that's fairly heartfelt but stands in odd contrast to Homer's otherwise abusive relationship with Ned. There's a different episode that's basically an odd couple road trip episode with Chalmers and Skinner. Again, not the gag fest that early Simpsons was, but it's a character building episode that wouldn't have been out of place in a different series. It's strange. I'd wager one of the big differences now is that the writer's room for the show isn't filled with comedians or comedy writers like in the early days. It's now filled with more general purpose and sitcom writers so there's less a desire to make these joke dense scenes because the skill isn't there to do it.
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Jun 2, 2023 18:40
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One great thing about re watching the early Simpsons seasons and their comedic density is that a lot of these episodes I saw syndicated to gently caress as a child always had a gag or two cut out to make room for more commercials, so sometimes I would be watching an episode for like the n+1 time in my life or some poo poo and strike comedy gold I had never seen before
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Jun 2, 2023 21:23
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Unicorn's been like some bizarro version of Samurai Jack season 5 where instead of starting out firing on all cylinders then starting to slip mid-season and ending with a wet fart, it instead has started out kinda shaky and not quite clicking but has steadily been improving in quality.
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Jun 2, 2023 21:35
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Crain posted:Zombie Simpsons is a case study in the lifecycle of Counter Culture Media. In its initial seven to nine seasons it was so transgressive that Presidential Candidate/Future President George HW Bush used it as a part of his culture war platform. "We should see families more like the Waltons, and fewer like the Simpsons" or something there about. My mother was aghast, AGHAST!, when I would try to sneak watching it as a kid. Hey, just like the Waltons they're praying for an end to the depression too. I still remember reading a magazine article about how the Simpsons were the most religious family on TV in tyool 2002 because they were the only sitcom to still go to church.
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Jun 3, 2023 00:59
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InsensitiveSeaBass posted:Hey, just like the Waltons they're praying for an end to the depression too. Lmao Jesus Christ if you could send that article back to 1990 it'd make so many old church ladies' heads explode
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Jun 3, 2023 01:26
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Crain posted:Zombie Simpsons is a case study in the lifecycle of Counter Culture Media. In its initial seven to nine seasons it was so transgressive that Presidential Candidate/Future President George HW Bush used it as a part of his culture war platform. "We should see families more like the Waltons, and fewer like the Simpsons" or something there about. My mother was aghast, AGHAST!, when I would try to sneak watching it as a kid. Rest of your post is really good and I wish I had something to add to it  You mentioning Disco Elysium is very on point
Happy Landfill fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Jun 3, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2023 02:48
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Happy Landfill posted:Funny enough it was the opposite for me; despite my mom not letting me watch MTV when I was a teenager she had no problem letting me watch the Simpsons during the height of it's popularity/culture war when I was only sing digits. It was one of six betamax tapes that I watched with some regularity and those episodes are burned in my brain (Herb comes to live with the family, Apu comes to live with the family, and Lisa joins the hockey team). Watching those episodes as an adult is insane because SO much went over my head. Except for, "hey, no eating in the tank!" "go to hell", that was funny even to four year old me My last partner's parents wouldn't let them watch Simpsons when they were a kid...but South Park was fine. Yeah...
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Jun 3, 2023 04:06
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I never had off-limits media in my household because my mom just really wanted someone to watch horror movies with and all us kids thought being scared was fun. So Simpsons, South Park, and Beavis & Butthead we're good to go by comparison. At 73, my mom's favorite B&B episode remains the one where they found roadkill and tried to sell it as a fine fur at the mall.
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Jun 3, 2023 06:23
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Das Boo posted:I never had off-limits media in my household because my mom just really wanted someone to watch horror movies with and all us kids thought being scared was fun. So Simpsons, South Park, and Beavis & Butthead we're good to go by comparison. On that note, didn't you once draw a comic of accidentally watching Antichrist with your mom as a kid? 
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Jun 3, 2023 06:29
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Sardonik posted:On that note, didn't you once draw a comic of accidentally watching Antichrist with your mom as a kid? Ha, not as a kid! I was 21 when it came out and it was still absolutely mortifying.
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Jun 3, 2023 06:38
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Watching Team America: World Police in theater with my parents, and the sex scene and vomiting scenes happen.
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Jun 3, 2023 06:53
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Recently showed my folks the entirely of Venture Bros, uncensored dicks and all, and they very much enjoyed it. We watched it during dinner. 
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Jun 3, 2023 07:04
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Das Boo posted:I never had off-limits media in my household because my mom just really wanted someone to watch horror movies with and all us kids thought being scared was fun. So Simpsons, South Park, and Beavis & Butthead we're good to go by comparison. My mom was the same way--we bonded over early South Park episodes, and she took me to see the film when I was 12, maybe 13.
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Jun 3, 2023 07:24
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my mom let me watch simpsons without a second thought as a kid, but mainly cause didn't speak english and thought all animation was for children  she was however, far less tolerant of me watching married with children 
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Jun 3, 2023 10:27
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Oscar aint no Slouch posted:Realistically given a 20 year hiatus we are lucky we got something worth watching at all Which, I bet, is something I won't be saying when the new Futurama airs.
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Jun 3, 2023 10:58
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:My mom was the same way--we bonded over early South Park episodes, and she took me to see the film when I was 12, maybe 13.  There's something just so wholesome about bonding over something unwholesome.
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Jun 3, 2023 11:15
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Megillah Gorilla posted:Which, I bet, is something I won't be saying when the new Futurama airs. I'm sure we'll at least get some good gifs
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Jun 3, 2023 11:30
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There’s a part of me that wants to watch through all the Comedy Central Futurama before the new stuff drops but also a bigger part of me that remembers why I stopped in the first place that is aware it won’t be a worthwhile use of my time
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Jun 3, 2023 13:41
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Escobarbarian posted:There’s a part of me that wants to watch through all the Comedy Central Futurama before the new stuff drops but also a bigger part of me that remembers why I stopped in the first place that is aware it won’t be a worthwhile use of my time Just watch the original run, those episodes still hold up. There are some fun zeitgeist things in there, like buying five shares of Amazon for a penny (it was between $1 and $2 per share when the episode aired).
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Jun 3, 2023 14:01
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It has been a while. I think I watched the first season when Disney+ first came out and then got distracted by other things.
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Jun 3, 2023 14:08
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Crain posted:
Calling early Simpsons anti-capitalist, a show by Harvard grads that waffled on whether unions were good or made you lazy depending on who was in the writer's room that day, is a pretty big loving stretch Countblanc fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Jun 3, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2023 14:14
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Ok, fair enough. But the overall point of "counter culture becomes culture" still stands
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Jun 3, 2023 14:26
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