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Ionicpsycho
Dec 25, 2006
The Shortbus Avenger.
Shamelessly stolen from the other thread:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1664518403799883778


This sounds destabilizing as hell.

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A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006

Jasper Tin Neck posted:

It's a bad machine translation of the corresponding passage in the Finnish Wikipedia, which says that Kouvola station was built on suitable sandy soil that a bunch of railway engineers pointed out at the request of a local industrialist.

Speaking of railways, the Crimean bridge gets all the press, but if I'm not completely mistaken, destroying four bridges is what it takes to cut off the Donbas from the Russian railway network. The catch is that all those bridges are in Russia, so they've been out of range for the Ukrainians until now.

My question is, does the continued existence of these bridges owe mostly to:

  1. the general difficulty of scoring a structurally critical hit on a bridge, even with a weapon like the Storm Shadow?
  2. the thicket of AD and EW assigned to protect them?
  3. western powers disallowing the use of western weapon systems to strike into Russia?
  4. Russia moving away from railway-based logistics?
  5. something else?

Everything but moving away from railway logistics. You can't completely reinvent your logistical system in the amount of time that has elapsed, especially during an actual honest to God large scale conflict.

Additionally, another metric is how difficult would it be to repair/replace the bridges in question. What makes the Kerch Straight bridge such an attractive target is once you get past a critical threshold of damage that bridge is DONE and you're forced to either take the long way around or rely on rail barges, neither of which are solutions to your logistical issues, just bandaids on the situation.

Also, truck logistics would still be a feasible option for Donbass, if highly undesirable. That's not to say you wouldn't want to drop those bridges. They're still highly valuable strategic targets. It's just that all of those factors weigh in targeting priority.

With all that said, if Ukraine decided to prioritize those bridges over Kerch or some other target, I'd have no criticisms to offer.

A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jun 3, 2023

Arrath
Apr 14, 2011


Ionicpsycho posted:

Shamelessly stolen from the other thread:

https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1664518403799883778


This sounds destabilizing as hell.

How many non mission critical employees can a gas company really have to send off to die in the trenches?

"Yeah the refinery in Murmansk blew up for want of Vasily, who's BMP caught an NLAW"

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

Dang even in 45 guessing German oil production employees would have been the very last to get sent to the front. Or maybe they were sent in human wave attacks on the Maginot line in 40, it was a bad regime.

Has Russia brought back Pals battalions yet?

Ionicpsycho
Dec 25, 2006
The Shortbus Avenger.
"Gather round children, and let me tell you of my time in the Disney© 3rd Amphibious Division, the Daffy Ducks."

Bronze Fonz
Feb 14, 2019




Ionicpsycho posted:

"Gather round children, and let me tell you of my time in the Disney© 3rd Amphibious Division, the Daffy Ducks."

Drafty Ducks.

A.o.D.
Jan 15, 2006
Ducking Drafts

Soul Dentist
Mar 17, 2009
Oh my God Daffy is WB you complete imbecile. You utter buffoon!

E: ↓lol↓

Soul Dentist fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Jun 3, 2023

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

Ionicpsycho posted:

"Gather round children, and let me tell you of my time in the Disney© 3rd Amphibious Division, the Daffy Ducks."

Daffy is Looney Toons!

Disney is Donald & company :argh:

Nystral
Feb 6, 2002

Every man likes a pretty girl with him at a skeleton dance.

AlternateNu posted:

Daffy is Looney Toons!

Disney is Donald & company :argh:

Rodger Rabbit infers that both are part of a larger metaverse of cartoons and therefore are interoperable in our post-facts society.

Quackles
Aug 11, 2018

Pixels of Light.


AlternateNu posted:

Daffy is Looney Toons!

Disney is Donald & company :argh:

Donald's Fucks?

brocked
Oct 25, 2005

All shall love me and despair!

Nystral posted:

Rodger Rabbit infers that both are part of a larger metaverse of cartoons and therefore are interoperable in our post-facts society.

Implies, you uncultured swine!

McGavin
Sep 18, 2012

Nystral posted:

Rodger Rabbit infers that both are part of a larger metaverse of cartoons and therefore are interoperable in our post-facts society.

Roger, you uncultured swine!

Nystral
Feb 6, 2002

Every man likes a pretty girl with him at a skeleton dance.

brocked posted:

Implies, you uncultured swine!

McGavin posted:

Roger, you uncultured swine!

Consider me duly chastised and repentant of my uncultured upbringing.

Personal Lucubrant
Oct 18, 2016

Just thinking about what to do with all the money I don't have.

Bronze Fonz posted:

Drafty Ducks.

A.o.D. posted:

Ducking Drafts

Jasper Tin Neck
Nov 14, 2008


"Scientifically proven, rich and creamy."

A.o.D. posted:

Everything but moving away from railway logistics. You can't completely reinvent your logistical system in the amount of time that has elapsed, especially during an actual honest to God large scale conflict.

Additionally, another metric is how difficult would it be to repair/replace the bridges in question. What makes the Kerch Straight bridge such an attractive target is once you get past a critical threshold of damage that bridge is DONE and you're forced to either take the long way around or rely on rail barges, neither of which are solutions to your logistical issues, just bandaids on the situation.

Also, truck logistics would still be a feasible option for Donbass, if highly undesirable. That's not to say you wouldn't want to drop those bridges. They're still highly valuable strategic targets. It's just that all of those factors weigh in targeting priority.

With all that said, if Ukraine decided to prioritize those bridges over Kerch or some other target, I'd have no criticisms to offer.

None of them are particularly massive, the bridge over the Donets at Belaya Kalitva (top) is the only one with more than a single span.



The ones at Matveyev Kurgan (middle left) Rossoch (middle right) and Krasnyi Sulin (bottom) are only single spans, so you'd have to destroy the bridge piers to make the damage hard to repair.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Nystral posted:

Rodger Rabbit infers that both are part of a larger metaverse of cartoons and therefore are interoperable in our post-facts society.

Recently rewatched this for the first time since childhood. What a great loving movie, and it's a miracle it was ever made. The goddamned cartoon weasels are carrying real guns. The effects are loving insane.

bird food bathtub
Aug 9, 2003

College Slice

Godholio posted:

Recently rewatched this for the first time since childhood. What a great loving movie, and it's a miracle it was ever made. The goddamned cartoon weasels are carrying real guns. The effects are loving insane.

Look up some behind the scenes 'how it's made' stuff. They didn't have CGI or modern photo trickery so it's some real wild stuff. Iron skeletons zipping around tracks in the floor, people acting along side complete fakes that will get cartoon'd over later.

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

Antigravitas posted:

I, FWIW, share the criticisms of IPSec. I run a few site to site tunnels using it and the sheer amount of redundant (and unsafe!) options you can choose is ridiculous. I would not be surprised if you could accidentally select to encrypt your traffic with ROT16 (or ROT256 :v:)

e: Reading an IT sec thread is unwise, it just leads you to the correct conclusion that everything is incredibly hosed and it's a miracle that society hasn't collapsed

Every infosec person I’ve met is a huge alcoholic. Fair but noted.

Powered Descent
Jul 13, 2008

We haven't had that spirit here since 1969.

But in every soldier's heart in all the Infantry
Shines the name, shines the name of Rodger Rabbit.

Lemniscate Blue
Apr 21, 2006

Here we go again.

bird food bathtub posted:

Look up some behind the scenes 'how it's made' stuff. They didn't have CGI or modern photo trickery so it's some real wild stuff. Iron skeletons zipping around tracks in the floor, people acting along side complete fakes that will get cartoon'd over later.

It really is the peak of the practical effects art.

BaconAndBullets
Feb 25, 2011

Lemniscate Blue posted:

It really is the peak of the practical effects art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWtt3Tmnij4

Gotta bump the lamp

Rev. Bleech_
Oct 19, 2004

~OKAY, WE'LL DRINK TO OUR LEGS!~


can't park there, man

Loden Taylor
Aug 11, 2003

This is what you get when you stop printing PS Magazine:

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/05/31/equipment-for-ukraine-drawn-from-kuwait-wasnt-combat-ready-ig-says/

quote:

WASHINGTON — Equipment drawn from the U.S. Army’s Kuwait-based pre-positioned stock bound for Ukraine was not ready for combat operations, the Pentagon’s inspector general has found.

During the inspector general’s audit of that pre-positioned stock area, the fifth of seven such locations around the world, “we identified issues that resulted in unanticipated maintenance, repairs, and extended leadtimes to ensure the readiness of the military equipment selected to support the Ukrainian Armed Forces,” the May 23 report stated.

All six of the M777 howitzers and 25 of 29 M1167 High-Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicles were not “mission ready” and required repairs before U.S. European Command could send the equipment to Ukraine.

quote:

The 401st Army Field Support Battalion in Kuwait is responsible for overseeing contractor maintenance work, which includes issuing equipment. Army Materiel Command confirmed the contractor conducting the work at the site is Amentum, which is based in Chantilly, Virginia.

Because the battalion did not ensure the contractor was meeting its maintenance requirements for approximately 19 months on M777 howitzers, an Army Materiel Command senior representative from Kuwait issued a request for assistance, bringing in a U.S. Army Tank-automotive and Armaments Command mobile repair team from Anniston Army Depot, Alabama.

When the team arrived at Camp Arifjan in March 2022, the contractor provided a howitzer that it said was fully mission capable. But the weapon system was not maintained according to the standard technical manual, per the mobile repair team, and “ ‘would have killed somebody [the operator],’ in its current condition,” the report stated.

Glad I'm out, motor pool Mondays about to get intense

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012



Loden Taylor posted:

This is what you get when you stop printing PS Magazine:

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2023/05/31/equipment-for-ukraine-drawn-from-kuwait-wasnt-combat-ready-ig-says/



Glad I'm out, motor pool Mondays about to get intense

quote:

The head of Army Sustainment Command explained, in response to the report, that the service’s funding level for APS maintenance in Kuwait was 30% of the validated requirements in fiscal 2023 — about $27.8 million of the $91.3 million requirement.

And the commander stated the contractor “is not contractually obligated or appropriately resourced to maintain [APS] equipment” at standards laid out in the technical manual the inspector general followed to make determinations regarding mission-capable readiness of the equipment.

The inspector general disagreed that the contractor was not obligated to follow the same technical manual used by the inspector general and also noted in the report that the Army obligated nearly $1 billion from Aug. 31, 2016, through April 13, 2023, for the APS location.

"The contractor was not properly resourced or contractually obligated to maintain APS equipment"? What the gently caress do you pay them for then? They get paid to keep the poo poo in fighting shape, to the manual, so that if poo poo gets real and it is needed, it can be pulled out of storage onto a ro-ro and sent wherever it is needed, without needing refurbishment. They got paid nearly a billion dollars to maintain the equipment, and they spent it on hookers and blow.
The head of Army Sustainment Command is getting a kickback I bet from the contracting company.

orange juche fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Jun 4, 2023

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007



orange juche posted:

"The contractor was not properly resourced or contractually obligated to maintain APS equipment"? What the gently caress do you pay them for then? They get paid to keep the poo poo in fighting shape, to the manual, so that if poo poo gets real and it is needed, it can be pulled out of storage onto a ro-ro and sent wherever it is needed, without needing refurbishment. They got paid nearly a billion dollars to maintain the equipment, and they spent it on hookers and blow.
The head of Army Sustainment Command is getting a kickback I bet from the contracting company.

If some dipshit COR didn't explicitly write it into the statement of work that the manual would be followed then that's true. That would be hilarious negligence even by Department of Defense contracting standards if it's true.

Crab Dad
Dec 28, 2002

behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB


Doing work is haaaard guys geez.

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012



Midjack posted:

If some dipshit COR didn't explicitly write it into the statement of work that the manual would be followed then that's true. That would be hilarious negligence even by Department of Defense contracting standards if it's true.

Oh I believe it, if it's not in writing then it never happened. CORs don't take their responsibilities seriously enough, ever, they treat being a contracting officer's representative as being a collateral duty getting in the way of whatever the hell they want to actually do with their day, which during COVID/after from my observation was to gently caress off and do absolutely nothing, going by how quickly we got work authorizations processed for new contractors we wanted to hire onto a project. Project Manager literally had to take it up the chain to the deputy director to get the COR beaten around the head until he started doing poo poo.

(Yes I get CORs have primary duties that are not COR poo poo, but complete radio silence and inability to contact them for months like the fucker never reads email is absolutely stupid)

orange juche fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jun 4, 2023

Mustang
Jun 18, 2006

“We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”
I was a COR for my brigade, and that's definitely a full time job. It wasn't my primary job but when we had a lot of contracts going on at one time it's basically all I spent my time doing.

It's just like a lot of things the Army doses, if it's an additional duty it will most likely get just enough attention to get the job done and nothing more.

psydude
Apr 1, 2008

The worst CORs seem to be active duty military, because it's an additional duty for them and they're only in the role for a couple of years before moving. It's definitely something that should be a full-time DoD civilian.

e: No offense, mustang.

Icon Of Sin
Dec 26, 2008



psydude posted:

The worst CORs seem to be active duty military, because it's an additional duty for them and they're only in the role for a couple of years before moving. It's definitely something that should be a full-time DoD civilian.

e: No offense, mustang.

There’s only so much you can do for a thing that’s treated like an extra duty, while it should be someone’s entire job.

Of course the army will yell at the single person in charge and not change anything that would even remotely address the problem. It’s a tale as old as time.

Turrurrurrurrrrrrr
Dec 22, 2018

I hope this is "battle" enough for you, friend.

I assume you pay them to hide stolen person hours and/or materiel in this case.

ishikabibble
Jan 21, 2012

psydude posted:

The worst CORs seem to be active duty military, because it's an additional duty for them and they're only in the role for a couple of years before moving. It's definitely something that should be a full-time DoD civilian.

e: No offense, mustang.

As a DoD civilian I'm always a little baffled by that. I've worked with AF active duty for engineering support of contracts and they've sometimes gone and cycled out in a little over a year, that's way too little time to actually get a grasp on the nuance of... basically anything. They definitely do their best and still try to do good work, but man, even for simple contracts there's still a lot of poo poo to wrap your head around.

Also re: CORs, all the ones I've interacted with have generally been pretty communicative and serious about their job, but I've only ever worked with full time civilian CORs who've been in the job for a while.

Icon Of Sin
Dec 26, 2008



Am I parsing this right? Russian: Ukrainian losses in Bakhmut being 7.5:1? That’s a weird phrasing, but idk if that’s the normal way you’d say it in Ukrainian/Russian.

https://kyivindependent.com/danilov-ukraine-lost-7-5-times-fewer-troops-than-russians-in-bakhmut/

Also from the same article: :stare:

quote:

According to an article published on June 4, Danilov said that Russia had lost 22,816 people in Bakhmut since Sept. 1, 2022, around the time when convicted criminals recruited from prisons began augmenting Russia's front-line troops.

e: math says that’s ~83 KIA per day, from 1 Sept 2022 to today (276 days).

Icon Of Sin fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Jun 4, 2023

Cugel the Clever
Apr 5, 2009
I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Icon Of Sin posted:

Am I parsing this right? Russian: Ukrainian losses in Bakhmut being 7.5:1? That’s a weird phrasing, but idk if that’s the normal way you’d say it in Ukrainian/Russian.
It's probably safe to assume that Ukranian estimates are on the more optimistic end. On the other hand, there's bountiful video evidence of Russian performance throughout the war which might suggest such seemingly high estimates may not be completely divorced from reality.

bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

That aligns with general thought to combat.
Attacking forces always suffer a higher rate of attrition; the number get worse when you are attacking prepared positions and attacking in urban areas. The numbers continue the steep cliff fall when you add in pre-sighted artillery, local knowledge of terrain, and modern drone warfare, and poor quality untrained troops in the attack, losing 8:1 doesn't seem unreasonable.

orange juche
Mar 14, 2012



Icon Of Sin posted:

Am I parsing this right? Russian: Ukrainian losses in Bakhmut being 7.5:1? That’s a weird phrasing, but idk if that’s the normal way you’d say it in Ukrainian/Russian.

https://kyivindependent.com/danilov-ukraine-lost-7-5-times-fewer-troops-than-russians-in-bakhmut/

Also from the same article: :stare:

e: math says that’s ~83 KIA per day, from 1 Sept 2022 to today (276 days).

I doubt it's as high as 7.5 to 1, but Russian troops are clearly getting mauled for every inch of ground they take or lose.

Icon Of Sin
Dec 26, 2008



That’s not terribly far off-base from the 7:1 I think they were estimating previously? I think NATO estimates were more like 5:1, but that’s still a :kstare: worth of dead (and however many more wounded) to take a pile of rubble that used to be a whole city of ~70,000 people.

Makes sense that they stayed, if they were trading up that high.

PurpleXVI
Oct 30, 2011

Spewing insults, pissing off all your neighbors, betraying your allies, backing out of treaties and accords, and generally screwing over the global environment?
ALL PART OF MY BRILLIANT STRATEGY!

orange juche posted:

I doubt it's as high as 7.5 to 1, but Russian troops are clearly getting mauled for every inch of ground they take or lose.

By all reports the Russians also have terrible medical supplies and care for their soldiers, so likely a lot less Russian injured get to return to the front line or lighter duties and are instead permanently unable to contribute, or dead.

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bulletsponge13
Apr 28, 2010

Inability or unwillingness to evac casualties is a thing I totally forgot to account for in my short list of poo poo showers.

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