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Ghost Leviathan posted:Sounds like they're still trying to appeal to the 'moderate conservative' demographic that doesn't exist. Eh, they definitely exist. They're just a small, non-representative portion of the base. I wouldn't be surprised if they were demographically skewed, either. In particular, I suspect that this group is disproportionately composed of wealthy urban elites who lean hard right on economic policy but are less interested in far-right social policy. That's not a very large group, but that's exactly the kinds of people who tend to be more visible to the media class. I'm not sure this is an intentional attempt to appeal to that group, though. I think that CNN desperately, desperately wants there to be a horserace primary so they can get the dramatic election coverage started sooner. If Biden vs Trump Round 2 is already a foregone conclusion, then nobody's really going to pay attention to election news until mid-2024. On the other hand, if there's a seriously contested primary (in either party), then people will be paying attention as early as February. After being spoiled by the rather messy primaries of 2016 and 2020, they're reluctant to go back to a boring primary season, even if it means they have to try and encourage competition in the field themselves. zoux posted:For whatever reason, LoC people do not like pandering media platforms in the same way that RoC people do. Whether that's brain reasons or socio-economic reasons or whatever, there is a vibrant, profitable right-wing news environment that tells its viewership the lies they want to hear and every attempt to recreate that for a left of center audience has failed. The best they've ever done is MSNBC. I don't think there's any real support for the idea that the left doesn't like pandering media platforms. There's a massive left-media ecosystem out there. It's just that the far left is a much smaller and weaker audience than the far right, and has fewer billionaire funders willing to throw massive amounts of money at it.
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Jun 5, 2023 16:32
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Main Paineframe posted:I don't think there's any real support for the idea that the left doesn't like pandering media platforms. There's a massive left-media ecosystem out there. It's just that the far left is a much smaller and weaker audience than the far right, and has fewer billionaire funders willing to throw massive amounts of money at it. I don't mean far left/far right, and I don't consider Fox News to be far right in the context of American politics, because literally every Republican politician does Fox News hits. There is no left-of-center analogue to Fox, I guess if you're saying that the equivalent to that nightly audience of millions can be found in splintered fora and other internet ephemera I can't disagree with you because I don't have the data one way or the other. Regardless, every mass media attempt at creating the RW media ecosystem has failed. I'd also take issue with a characterization of a "massive" left-media ecosystem within the context of a much smaller and weaker audience, both cannot be true. zoux fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jun 5, 2023 |
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Jun 5, 2023 16:39
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I don't know if you'll ever have a left-leaning news network beyond whatever MSNBC is in America. How do you attract advertising to a network that caters to a political demographic that less inclined to buy stuff?
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Jun 5, 2023 16:39
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Heh, the 'bernie bro' or 'brocialist' of myth. Despite the howling of centrist liberals, the general brand of white male victimhood rhetoric isn't really compatible with anything left of centre, either you end up having to acknowledge intersectional problems or get called out for it and run crying to the right pretty much instantly to maybe become a 'mean sjws drove me out of the left' grifter. But they have to exist, otherwise centrists are just doing exactly the same thing as the right of flailing at made-up things to justify their reactionary hysteria. I am going to raked over the coals for this but the other thing that separates Centrists and Leftists to the Conservatives and the Right in this country is that there is an actual want to govern and create policy that works. You (or I, or whoever) may disagree at HOW they want to govern or their programs but it's still within the hey, we want the government to work and do something. The right in this country have no interest in governing, they have no interest on their policy and impact and it allows to them say whatever they gently caress they want because it's not like they will ever be held accountable and they aren't getting elected to govern. Ghost Leviathan posted:I was wondering about that, figures I was just describing something that already exists and probably isn't leaving the niche open any time soon. Everyone I encountered who is like that (or neither party represents me) are people who are either A) Libertarians who don't want to admit they are Republicans. B) Middle Class/Wealthy people who don't like the social side of the Republican party but don't want the perceived Democratic tax and spend policies. What I am saying its mostly Middle Class White people who just don't want to hear about problems but have a distaste for racism.
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Jun 5, 2023 16:39
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Eric Cantonese posted:I don't know if you'll ever have a left-leaning news network beyond whatever MSNBC is in America. More than that, advertisers and networks would never allow propagandists for organized labor, uhc, free college, ubi, or affordable housing have a platform the same way fox gives its freaks a nightly megaphone. It’s not just that nobody will pay for it, but that everyone involved is less likely to want to allow it.
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Jun 5, 2023 16:48
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Mooseontheloose posted:Everyone I encountered who is like that (or neither party represents me) are people who are either I'd add on people who aren't that engaged/informed but want to look like the smart person in the room and those who transparently want to say "don't look at me, I didn't vote for the guy!" more than anything. And those come in all ages and incomes, but there's still the common thread of people who don't think the outcome of elections affects them meaningfully.
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Jun 5, 2023 16:52
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Heh, the 'bernie bro' or 'brocialist' of myth. Despite the howling of centrist liberals, the general brand of white male victimhood rhetoric isn't really compatible with anything left of centre, either you end up having to acknowledge intersectional problems or get called out for it and run crying to the right pretty much instantly to maybe become a 'mean sjws drove me out of the left' grifter. But they have to exist, otherwise centrists are just doing exactly the same thing as the right of flailing at made-up things to justify their reactionary hysteria. Out of almost a decade of seeing the rise of the alt-right and it just merging with mainstream conservatism seemingly everywhere and supplanting all their supposedly previously held somewhat consistent stated values like small government, low/no taxes, communism bad, and focus on balancing budgets with simple white male grievance and victimhood narratives as the only current constant, the only thing I really saw that came close to what I would describe as extremism from "the left" was that dirtbag left movement that largely died out in 2020. That was mainly an online movement that didn't quite sync up with what Bernie Sanders was actually going for in his platform, and which he kind of denounced and may have even worked against his nomination, though it probably wasn't happening anyway since the DNC seemed to firmly set itself on the Biden path within a matter of early primaries. See the extremely rare instances of what I would even come close to describing as extremist rhetoric from "the left" tend to amount to matters of mild inconvenience like somebody online refusing to engage in good faith and badgering other people that aren't out of line as racists or whatever. It's exceptionally rare to see and largely harmless as I've tried to explain to some people I know who try to play the both sides card like there's an equivalence of either influence or intensity at play. I mean I've dealt with it before once or twice, it can be kind of frustrating, but it didn't make me think I was somehow being victimized or mistreated by "the looney left" like the Elon Musk's of the world, or all this other stuff that is just an absolute constant of a very real and unfortunately very influential global far right movement with actual sitting members of congresses and parliaments in what are supposed to be Democratic countries.
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Jun 5, 2023 16:58
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I like to watch a Disney parks news show because I do like Disney and it's utterly low stakes, but everytime they talk about Disney vs DeSantis the host *has* to preface it as "I am middle of the road, I think the left and right are terrible" everytime. Except the "program" is extremely pro-union, pro living wage, and even mildly skeptical of slash-and-burn capitalism... and that's all "left wing" positions now. ( I think? They should be centerist, but alas. ) I'm they're also "queer people, espeically trans people should be able to exist and get healthcare" and I think gave Chapek poo poo for his extremely anemic pushback against the law that started DeSantis' crusade after the Mouse.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:05
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I would say the only ever "extreme left" rhetoric I've seen mediaish wise that was troublesome is several DSA chapters coming out in support of and repeating the propaganda lies of Russia during the start of the war.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:05
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There’s plenty of horrendous left-wing media out there, even excluding y’all’s poasts. A decent example off the top of my head is The Bellows. We’re likely to rapidly enter no true Scotsman territory here.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:13
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Discendo Vox posted:There’s plenty of horrendous left-wing media out there, even excluding y’all’s poasts. A decent example off the top of my head is The Bellows. this mf said y'all's poasts
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Jun 5, 2023 17:14
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zoux posted:I don't mean far left/far right, and I don't consider Fox News to be far right in the context of American politics, because literally every Republican politician does Fox News hits. There is no left-of-center analogue to Fox, I guess if you're saying that the equivalent to that nightly audience of millions can be found in splintered fora and other internet ephemera I can't disagree with you because I don't have the data one way or the other. Regardless, every mass media attempt at creating the RW media ecosystem has failed. I'd also take issue with a characterization of a "massive" left-media ecosystem within the context of a much smaller and weaker audience, both cannot be true. I thought you meant in terms of ideological seriousness, because if you were really talking just about size and viewership, then treating left-of-center media as "failed" and dismissing MSNBC the way you did would be ridiculous. MSNBC is the second most-watched cable news network, with more than a million primetime viewers. It may not be quite as big as Fox, but it's hardly insignificant. Handwaving that away to portray "left-of-center" media as a bunch of splintered forums suggests that your viewpoint is highly skewed. As for the question I find more interesting, why there isn't a hard-left equivalent of Fox, Fox News was the pet project of a billionaire media executive who already had experience building up a 24-hour news channel from nothing, and already had experience putting together a new TV company capable of challenging the established players in the American market. He spent billions of dollars putting together Fox Broadcasting Company, and it took more than half a decade to become profitable and establish itself as a major player. It was only a few years after that when he announced the creation of Fox News. And he invested heavily into it with expensive measures like having weeks of rehearsals before it went on the air for the first time, and straight-up paying cable networks to carry the channel.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:45
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:this mf said y'all's poasts
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Jun 5, 2023 17:46
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pence is piling into the gop primary clowncarquote:But he faces some stiff headwinds in the race to the White House as he fights to win the support of a party that remains largely loyal to Trump. anyone with a better grasp of us history trivia know if a former vice president has attempted to primary their president? maybe back in the wild adams and jefferson days when the administration ended up always being mixed between parties
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Jun 5, 2023 17:52
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:pence is piling into the gop primary clowncar Not quite the same circumstance, but Teddy ran against his former VP and incumbent Prez Taft back in 1912, much to the delight of Wilson.
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Jun 5, 2023 17:56
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I think Pence has more of a chance than people give him credit for, by which I mean maybe a 1% chance instead of 0%. He talks a good aughts-style Republican pandering game, he's handsome, evangelicals probably still like him, and anti-Trump Republicans probably appreciate his actions on 1/6. If a bunch of other candidates crash and burn, and Trump loses favor somehow, he could end up with it just as easily as Haley or Christie or someone like that.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:22
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:pence is piling into the gop primary clowncar A few former Presidents attempted to go back to their old offices, but the only successful one was Cleveland. His vice president had died a year into his term and was never replaced. Other fun details when looking at history: beyond Teddy vs Taft, Grant was almost nominated for a third (nonconsecutive) term in 1880. Hoover tried to get the Republican nomination again in 1936 and 1940. Martin Van Buren and Millard Fillmore both ran on third party tickets. Gerald Ford was considered for Reagan's VP in 1980. And John Tyler managed to have the worst post-presidential career by getting elected to the Confederate Congress, contrasting Trump's possible treason with Actual Treason.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:25
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Discendo Vox posted:There’s plenty of horrendous left-wing media out there, even excluding y’all’s poasts. A decent example off the top of my head is The Bellows. There was a time when this threads previous equivalent USPOL got so bad for that no true Scotsman stuff that it wasn't even worth posting in it and you'd see epic thread meltdowns and probs going out several times a day for weeks and months. The dick measuring stuff got so bad at one point that I remember a mod closing the at the time current USPOL thread and saying that it was getting to a point where over half the leper's colony mod actions were coming from just that one thread on a daily basis and they needed time to catch up and figure out how they were going to go forward. It seems like getting rid of a handful of just the absolute worst shitposters and meltdown artists that were pretty obviously deliberately trying to shitpost the thread and working things in the eventual USCE general has really made it more workable. Like yeah you can have a thread that leans heavily left without it being a constant self-cannibalizing shitposting frenzy. Again though minor inconvenience to say Ron DeSantis, Greg Abbott and the current House Freedom Caucus wing of the GOP entrenching themselves into power and attempting to legislate and strongarm a totalitarian fascist form of government where any dissent or citizen activity that cuts against their far right beliefs is met with blatant freedom of expression denying weaponizing of government retaliation of the kind that has led to this whole Disney v. DeSantis fiasco and trying to justify it at every turn almost every day by ranting and raving insistently about how "wokeness" is just totally out of control can't go unchecked or whatever.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:29
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Cable news has a terminal shrinking audience problem that even Fox is feeling. I'm not convinced there is any real way to revive CNN in these conditions. That it's even in the same competitive space as Newsmax at all ever should be a dire warning.I AM GRANDO posted:More than that, advertisers and networks would never allow propagandists for organized labor, uhc, free college, ubi, or affordable housing have a platform the same way fox gives its freaks a nightly megaphone. It’s not just that nobody will pay for it, but that everyone involved is less likely to want to allow it. The racism and death cult stuff isn't exactly great for business either. If something gets out there and finds an audience it's hard for capitalists to argue with it, but the problem here is, have you noticed who's actually sponsoring TV programs anymore? Stuff that used to only come on at 3 AM is now prime time advertising.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:35
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:pence is piling into the gop primary clowncar I feel like at this point these people are just wasting their time. With Trump signaling his full intention to run now, and the GOP voter base just absolutely locking themselves in on this idea of Trump the Super President after years of propaganda on that front, there's just nobody that can beat him in a GOP primary. He has less of a chance than DeSantis does which is like maybe 2-3% right now. Modern conservatives don't want a milquetoast Jeb or Mitt like politician or even the religious demagogue guy that "wouldn't stand up for Trump when the election was being stolen" (TM). They want people to fling poo poo around and boast and complain about wokeness and white victimhood narratives. If Pence hasn't been practicing his talking points on this front and wants to argue about things like economy or Biden's actual record as it stands then he better bring the lube to those debates and primaries. The only thing that takes Trump out of the lock for GOP nomination really is if he's literally unable to continue his run legally because he's under serious criminal investigation charges, but watch even then they somehow change the rules or system to let him legally run and consider any votes cast for him (of which he'd still probably win the plurality I imagine) legitimate anyway. Kale fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jun 5, 2023 |
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Jun 5, 2023 18:36
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Kale posted:I feel like at this point these people are just wasting their time. Working a grift ain't wasting time, and the outside chance that Trump dies before November '24 means everyone thinks they're next-in-line.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:39
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:pence is piling into the gop primary clowncar This Time article (from 2019) goes through some historical cases where an incumbent faced a challenge, but on a quick read it doesn't seem that your specific scenario has happened. LBJ's successor-candidate was Humphrey, but LBJ dropped out of the race for other reasons. The Time piece (  ) also points out that 'modern' primaries are a relatively new thing,Time posted:Even after that period, not all primaries can be evaluated the same way. In fact, the system in use today is only about 50 years old. Candidates didn’t usually have to compete in all of the primaries until party reforms in the early 1970s made primaries (rather than party leaders) key to determining who gets the nomination. and speculates that the current US political landscape would be less fruitful to these attempts like Pence's anyway: Time posted:“It’s probably not that the challenge itself weakened the nominee,” says Noel, “but the fact that they were weak drew their challenge in the first place. So just being challenged is not a good sign.” Pence is white-bread not-Trump, and DeSantis wants to be Trump-but-shinier, and I don't see them going very far. Though of course predictions this far out are kinda useless; what happens if Trump is incarcerated at bad times next year, for instance?
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Jun 5, 2023 18:48
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I'm not sure incarceration stops a trump candidacy. I'm not sure conviction does. Eugene Debs ran from jail.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure incarceration stops a trump candidacy. I'm not sure conviction does. I predict a number of extra people would vote for him because of the "persecution". I also predict an exact same number of people would not vote for him because getting caught makes him a loser.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:52
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socialsecurity posted:I predict a number of extra people would vote for him because of the "persecution". I also predict an exact same number of people would not vote for him because getting caught makes him a loser. The biggest hindrance would be he couldn't do the rallies.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:53
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His recent rallies and public appearances don't have the same energy anymore. Trump lost his antichrist mojo.
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Jun 5, 2023 18:56
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A jailed Trump (or a third-party conservative running against a jailed Trump) would be an incredible spoiler candidate, but neither the Trump voters nor the non-Trump voters would acknowledge a Democratic victory even if it turned into a 48-state landslide. But they wouldn't do that anyway so who cares.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:01
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Since this isn't really CE if it's verboten that's fine, but I got thinking: Suppose Trump dies tomorrow. Who is most likely to be the GOP nominee among those who have declared or are unofficially running? I just don't see any real way DeSantis wins the primary, with or without Trump. He's such a black hole of charisma. Obviously he's won elections in Florida, but running for President is a whole different thing. I'm thinking Pence would have the best chances all-around: VP for four years, "a good Christian man," white.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:05
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Add handling a photo op with a ww2 vet something desantis struggles with. https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1665774279256940546?s=46&t=JBd6ZXmGQ3LmWL-ineTnAA Judgy Fucker posted:Since this isn't really CE if it's verboten that's fine, but I got thinking: If trump died tomorrow the landslide of people declaring for the presidency would make 2016 look like a pebble rolling down a hill. https://twitter.com/scottwalker/status/1665504130360549376?s=46&t=JBd6ZXmGQ3LmWL-ineTnAA FizFashizzle fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Jun 5, 2023 |
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Jun 5, 2023 19:05
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FizFashizzle posted:If trump died tomorrow the landslide of people declaring for the presidency would make 2016 look like a pebble rolling down a hill. True, which is why I said Judgy Fucker posted:Since this isn't really CE if it's verboten that's fine, but I got thinking:
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Jun 5, 2023 19:07
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FizFashizzle posted:Add handling a photo op with a ww2 vet something desantis struggles with. quote:It's worth reading the whole anecdote: Good job vet!  -DeSantis
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Jun 5, 2023 19:08
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Judgy Fucker posted:Since this isn't really CE if it's verboten that's fine, but I got thinking: Of the currently announced candidates, I think DeSantis is still the heaviest non-Trump favorite. He's the only one of the major candidates (vs. Haley, Scott, Christie, Pence) who's fully willing to forego dog whistles and say the shocking stuff Trump's fans love. If the other candidates aren't going to say that vaccine mandates were tyranny, or that the 2020 election was stolen, or that the trans folks are coming for your kids, they aren't going to be able to compete.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:15
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The issue is that DeSantis is a nerd that everyone wants to bully. A wide open non-Trump field will see him get attacked from all sides and torn apart by a pack of starving hyenas. Perhaps literally.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:26
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The entire Republican primary process is just everyone picking a Next Nerd Standing to bully out of the race until there's only one person left standing. It's a bully ideology and functions by bully mores. I still think Cruz could've won the Republican primary if he'd been willing to just walk across the stage and kick Trump in the balls or pull his pants down.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:29
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i like how the regressive party has this weird mix of toeing the team line no matter what, but this weird ego bs that leads to a bunch of clowns entering and making a larger and larger primary thats going to allow donnie to survive because the not Donniers diluted all their votes. like the DEM-e voltron sucked , but it worked.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:38
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Morrow posted:A few former Presidents attempted to go back to their old offices, but the only successful one was Cleveland. His vice president had died a year into his term and was never replaced. Very trivial fun fact: John Tyler is the earliest president with a living grandchild. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Ruffin_Tyler His brother died back in 2020. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX8MOFhXm5U Tyler was having kids until his 70s.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:39
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Judgy Fucker posted:Since this isn't really CE if it's verboten that's fine, but I got thinking: There's so many people entering precisely because there isn't a clear answer. Nobody really knows exactly what the base wants, nor do they know what the base will prioritize if Trump is out of the picture. Yeah, DeSantis is a crappy candidate who doesn't seem to have much of a shot, but so are the rest of them. They're all distinctly second-rate compared to Trump; there's no one head-and-shoulders above the rest for people to coalesce around.
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Jun 5, 2023 19:43
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Judgy Fucker posted:Since this isn't really CE if it's verboten that's fine, but I got thinking: DeSantis would get it, hands down. The funniest event would be if Biden also died & an even deeper* hole of charisma ran against DeSantis. * changed from "blacker" for obvious reasons.
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Jun 5, 2023 20:03
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If Biden died before the convention, they would nominate somebody else*; if he died after, it's possible that sympathetic coverage and various hagiographies could help carry Harris over the finish line. * Actually now that I think about it I'm not 100% sure on this at all 
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Jun 5, 2023 20:06
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Mellow Seas posted:Of the currently announced candidates, I think DeSantis is still the heaviest non-Trump favorite. He's the only one of the major candidates (vs. Haley, Scott, Christie, Pence) who's fully willing to forego dog whistles and say the shocking stuff Trump's fans love. If the other candidates aren't going to say that vaccine mandates were tyranny, or that the 2020 election was stolen, or that the trans folks are coming for your kids, they aren't going to be able to compete. I dunno, DeSantis talks the talk but unlike Trump he still comes off as a whiny nerd who is terminally angry he got stuffed into one too many lockers in middle school. Main Paineframe is is right of course, just a slow news day and Leon isn't around dumping news articles to talk about.
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Jun 5, 2023 20:06
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