|
Reiterpallasch posted:there's like 40 loving chapters or something of it after zhuge liang, the last character that anyone cares about, bites it, and i swear to god i could not tell you a single thing that happened in any of them unless they were covered by a dynasty warriors game. Pretty sure even in Dynasty Warriors they were like, 'Uhh...yeah! Another dude with a fan. Ooo~." It could have been interesting to have an actual Three Kingdoms setting but I'd take a Lu Bu power fantasy DLC over that any day.
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 10:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:49 |
|
|
Reiterpallasch posted:there's like 40 loving chapters or something of it after zhuge liang, the last character that anyone cares about, bites it, and i swear to god i could not tell you a single thing that happened in any of them unless they were covered by a dynasty warriors game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 15:11
|
|
|
The interesting stuff in Romance of the Three Kingdoms ends with Cao Cao.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 15:25
|
|
|
It’s also extremely funny that none of the three kingdoms actually win
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 15:40
|
|
|
neither romeo or juliet win in their romance either
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 16:22
|
|
|
HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:neither romeo or juliet win in their romance either That really defines what you mean by winning. Neither one of them has to deal with their families dumb bullshit anymore. Absolute W
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 16:27
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:It’s also extremely funny that none of the three kingdoms actually win the romance was the friends we made along the way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUZLZpaBC7U&t=63s Earwicker fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Jun 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 16:28
|
|
|
Changing like 5 lines of dialogue to make the Sima Yi vs Zhuge Liang chapters into a tragic gay love story.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 17:11
|
|
|
HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:neither romeo or juliet win in their romance either I mean it would only be comparable if the last chapter introduced a new girl named Danna and Romeo just thought she was better
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 20:37
|
|
|
I mean, earlobes, alcoholism, and the unimpeachable Guan Di win the romance of one's heart, for one with correct opinions
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 21:57
|
|
|
StashAugustine posted:I feel like it'd work for Medieval where a bunch of crap levies and a couple uber elite cavalry units is basically how battles went tbf FYI that is not how medieval battles went. The idea of medieval armies being largely made up of conscripted peasant rabble is a fantasy. Feudal levies consisted mostly of professional soldiers, knights and their retainers for instance*, who had contracts that limited how long they were required to serve, if longer service was required they would sometimes be re-hired as mercenaries essentially. Peasant levies where they existed were drawn from the class of landowning peasants and small farmers, and typically those societies had traditions and expectations of this class doing military service and engaging in communal and individual military training (see England's archers drawn from the "yeoman farmer" class for instance), the same often goes for city militias, who often could be quite well-equipped but were typicallly a purely defensive force and only sometimes recruited into field armies. *A class of "semi-professionals" (this is a modern term I think) also tends to pop up, not too dissimilar from those peasant levies I also mention, though these would be the lower ranks of the aristocracy who didn't live in another lord's household and had to practice some kind of work (typically farming) in addition to being soldiers. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jun 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 22:20
|
|
|
Swarms of "crap levies" wasn't just not real, but also is still ultimately a poo poo idea for military doctrine. That's a line of troops that would dissolve on impact, troops that are better off staying at their farms. The medieval peoples were not that stupid
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 22:52
|
|
|
Yeah, generally you don't want your peasants fighting. You need them doing the work that your warrior/semi-warrior class isn't doing. Contrary to popular belief, invaders generally didn't massacre peasants either. They needed them alive for the same reasons. That doesn't mean that peasant levies didn't exist, or that massacres didn't happen, but in the context of medieval European warfare it wasnt the norm. Most European warfare was actually pretty small scale, like dozens or hundreds of men rather than thousands. At Agincourt, for example, the English army numbered around 8,000 - and that's a royal army led by the king himself, it was the best he could do. You can imagine how lower level conflict between lesser nobility would be scaled down even further.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 22:56
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:Swarms of "crap levies" wasn't just not real, but also is still ultimately a poo poo idea for military doctrine. That's a line of troops that would dissolve on impact, troops that are better off staying at their farms. The medieval peoples were not that stupid To be fair this was apparently how the late Ming army actually operated
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 22:56
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:Swarms of "crap levies" wasn't just not real, but also is still ultimately a poo poo idea for military doctrine. That's a line of troops that would dissolve on impact, troops that are better off staying at their farms. The medieval peoples were not that stupid It annoys me so much that in CK3 they moved to that as the basis of their war system. In ck2 you had standing troops you picked the composition of and troops you had to raise up from your holdings with random compositions, but were the same categories of unit your standing troops were. CK3 changed the rallied units to purely be levies, who exist only to die by the thousands and couldn't hurt a fly while your standing army is now buffed to levels that space marines would be jealous of.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:Yeah, generally you don't want your peasants fighting. You need them doing the work that your warrior/semi-warrior class isn't doing. Contrary to popular belief, invaders generally didn't massacre peasants either. They needed them alive for the same reasons. That doesn't mean that peasant levies didn't exist, or that massacres didn't happen, but in the context of medieval European warfare it wasnt the norm. Most European warfare was actually pretty small scale, like dozens or hundreds of men rather than thousands. At Agincourt, for example, the English army numbered around 8,000 - and that's a royal army led by the king himself, it was the best he could do. You can imagine how lower level conflict between lesser nobility would be scaled down even further. Also, that English army had "peasant levies" of the type I mentioned that actually existed, the longbowmen. But you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who regards them as "untrained rabble".
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:To be fair this was apparently how the late Ming army actually operated China is a whole different beast. They definitely utilized peasant levies.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:00
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:China is a whole different beast. They definitely utilized peasant levies. As did some Medieval European societies at times. The other myth is that peasant levies, where they were utilized, were, as a rule, useless - untrained and poorly equipped. If that was the case in later Ming armies, it would probably be because of an earlier functioning insititution having decayed to the point where it was no longer performing as intended. e: I also suspect there is probably some more nuance to those late Ming armies than the impressions of (possibly later) European observers. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Jun 6, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:02
|
|
|
Jamwad Hilder posted:China is a whole different beast. They definitely utilized peasant levies. Well yeah but I was more talking about no one is that dumb. Like from what I read not only did they use levies , they were extremely poorly armed and relied on human wave tactics. Granted the late Ming where not exactly the most competent of dynasts
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:03
|
|
|
what is "human wave" even supposed to mean in the context of pre-gunpowder warfare
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:11
|
|
|
Han had a professional army, the Northern Army (that's why Cao Cao and Yuan Shao get access to them when they become big boys in Fates Divided) but there were also plenty of times they just sent a guy to go round up local boys to go fight someone else. The latter being basically Ma Teng's backstory where he was a local boy recruited by a Han officer to fight rebels who then rebelled and joined the rebels. When things fell apart the forces that Cao Cao and Sun Jian and co raised were a combination of wandering recruitment and their own tougher core of veterans - Sun Jian especially. Then as time went on and things were more stable guys could actually be given training. Cao Cao created a strong militia garrison system and Sun Ce's extreme effectiveness was because his troops were damned disciplined.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:15
|
|
|
Rafe de Crespigny has some pretty well regarded, pubic facing works about late Han/3K warfare to the point where CA paid him to consult on 3K, though whether they took any of the advice or were just buying street cred is unknowable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:19
|
|
|
Even before the rise of longbowmen England had laws clearly defining exactly how the peasant freemen were expected to arm themselves for war, relative to how much land they owned https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Arms_of_1181#:~:text=The%20Assize%20of%20Arms%20of,%2C%20but%20on%20their%20limbs%22. (It's also anti-semitic because of course it is lol) And before the Normans the Anglo-Saxon kings had an extensive system of forts dating back to the viking wars manned by semi-regular peasant militias that made up the bulk of their armies, even if wealthier and better-armed household troops were the core Edit: England might by an anomaly because it was unusually centralised by medieval European standards but I would expect something similar in other parts of Europe. Those Flemish militia companies with weird pointy sticks were raised mostly by wealthy merchants guilds iirc
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:21
|
|
|
Eimi posted:It annoys me so much that in CK3 they moved to that as the basis of their war system. In ck2 you had standing troops you picked the composition of and troops you had to raise up from your holdings with random compositions, but were the same categories of unit your standing troops were. CK3 changed the rallied units to purely be levies, who exist only to die by the thousands and couldn't hurt a fly while your standing army is now buffed to levels that space marines would be jealous of. I really agree. I hate that CK3 decided to go with this approach.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:25
|
|
|
DaysBefore posted:Edit: England might by an anomaly because it was unusually centralised by medieval European standards but I would expect something similar in other parts of Europe. Those Flemish militia companies with weird pointy sticks were raised mostly by wealthy merchants guilds iirc Well one thing is that Medieval Europe was a faaaaar less uniform and easily generalizable place than I think we tend to assume. The "standard" medieval feudal (now that's a term that will have people flying into a blood rage) society we often think about is like central/northern France. The rule about peasant levies is that they do seem to mostly show up where a tradition of military service on the part of all free (that is landholding) men exist (even if in practice that often means that a village equips one or a couple of warriors rather than every man), where the class of free, landowning peasants is fairly sizeable. And that though they couldn't hope to be as well-equipped or as highly trained and pracised as a professional full-time military class that trained basically every day from childhood, what weapons and equipment they did have was often effective for their purpose and they had the knowledge and training to use them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:33
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:FYI that is not how medieval battles went. So yeah, they all existed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:41
|
|
|
Reiterpallasch posted:what is "human wave" even supposed to mean in the context of pre-gunpowder warfare You think human wave is a gunpowder era tactic? Lol it predates that by a long long time
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:42
|
|
|
Ravenfood posted:The medieval period is very long and contains examples of standing professional military forces of many types including full-time mercenary companies, the semi-professional group you mention, militia of varying degrees of training, and essentially conscripted peasants. The peasant levy themselves varied wildly in skill and arms too, as people have already addressed with English longbowmen. I did not say peasant levies did not exist I said the idea of medieveal armies consisting of largely poorly armed rabble with a tiny core of eltie knights is a fantasy and that the idea that peasant levies where they existed were expendable rabble is also wrong. e: Though I might be a reading a disagreement/rebuttal here where there is none. In which case I'll apologize in advance.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:45
|
|
|
human wave is an term with no academic meaning other than "it was a bad idea" with a side order of "those zulus/chinese/russians/etc don't value human life like we do." it's not a "tactic" at all, it's an emotive and pejorative term for a class of tactics reliant on mass. the conditions--the minnie ball, field entrenchment, spherical case shot, etc--which make frontal attacks dependent on mass a bad idea in european/american warfare take hold in the 19th century, sometime in between the napoleonic wars and the ACW. nobody's sitting around calling, i dunno, pike-and-shot tercios, or a hellenistic sarissa block advancing to contact "human wave" because mass is a sign of good generalship back then.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2023 23:54
|
|
|
i just checked and the wikipedia page for "human wave attack" is 95% asiatic powers fighting europeans without a single sentence for malvern hill or fredericksburg or the last day at gettysburg lmao
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 00:00
|
|
|
Reiterpallasch posted:i just checked and the wikipedia page for "human wave attack" is 95% asiatic powers fighting europeans without a single sentence for malvern hill or fredericksburg or the last day at gettysburg lmao I'm not going to argue against your general point in the post above about "human wave attacks, but the article outright mentions the american civil war by name. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jun 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 00:03
|
|
|
poo poo you're right, that's what i get for skimming the headers, fair enough
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
This however quote:The human wave attack's reliance on melee combat usually makes the organization and the training of the attacking force irrelevant Is utter bullshit. Actually carrying out an effective charge in formation, i.e. one that effectively utilizes mass, requires a fair amount of training and discipline on the part of soldiers and and commanders. Charging in poor order, without much effect, sure, that can be done "easily", but effectively maneuvering, much less charging, in formation is like one of the things you see brought up again and again in pre-modern warfare as like the distinguishing mark of effective heavy infantry.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 00:07
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:I did not say peasant levies did not exist I said the idea of medieveal armies consisting of largely poorly armed rabble with a tiny core of eltie knights is a fantasy and that the idea that peasant levies where they existed were expendable rabble is also wrong. Oh, yeah, no, not a rebuttal so much as a preemptive response to someone saying "well what about xxxx battle" or whatever. The time period involved is so long and the peoples involved had such different ways of organizing their military and society that everything probably happened at least once. Total war doesn't really have any concept of something like the fyrd, where most of your army consists of people who don't have much formal training but live in a society where fighting prowess by common men is valued AND they regularly get called up to fight. They aren't professional troops, but they aren't untrained either. They also can't stay in the field forever. Randarkman posted:This however In fairness, wheeling in formation while under fire is probably hard as fuuuck, but every unit in TW games can do it without a problem. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jun 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 01:42
|
|
|
Yeah the idea in particular I'm calling out as both probable bullshit and stupid in any case is "peasant rabble with like sticks and pitchforks and shirts." If someone was going to war, they would splash out for even just a small degree of equipment and training, because otherwise it's a literal waste of (human) resources at best and a liability in battle at worst when your actual troops are watching part of their army get loving slaughtered or immediately run away. It works for Bretonnia in Warhammer because Warhammer is a world of stereotypes and literal magic but IRL? Nah
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 01:55
|
|
|
Total War armies are professional soldiers in every meaningful way, regardless of the flavoring of low tier units.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 02:05
|
|
|
Terrible Opinions posted:Sima Yi takes over the kingdom, then his extremely incompetent children blunder their way to victory. Zhuge Liang's apprentice, Jiang Wei goes on a series of expensive stalemate wars against Sima Yi. Jiang Wei drains the treasury, spreads himself too thin, and Shu's eventually overran. After Sima Yi overruns his kingdom, Liu Shan's sent off to live the rest of his life in pleasure while Jiang Wei tries to scrape together another source of power to continue the good fight. When one of Sima Yi's sons asks Lu Shan if he misses Shu, Lu Shan goes lol what? I'm having too much fun here. This completes the cycle of corruption ruining a kingdom. Wu's ruling family eventually falls into interfamilial fighting, tyranny and general dickery with little thought paid to defending their borders against a potential Jin invasion. This finally leads to Sun Hao executing all of his advisors who were screaming at him to defend himself. By the time Jin essentially walks in, the kingdom's fallen to a cycle of peasant uprisings, Sun Hao's lost the respect his commanders, and the border guards immediately defect to the invading Jin army. A kingdom once known for its strong family ties falls into madness and casually swept away. The final arc of rot3k is chapters and chapters and chapters of rot and decay taking China over, no more heroes, no more heroics, no more brave stories and amazing wars. Just kingdoms that're faint shadows of their once greatness teetering over when the kingdom that managed to avoid completely making GBS threads itself just long enough to get things done takes over. Then after Sima Yi dies, Jin falls apart into 7 pieces and it sucks to be a peasant in dynastic china once again. killer_robot fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Jun 7, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 09:46
|
|
|
And then the Mongols invade,
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 10:02
|
|
|
the mongols are a bit later on, the immediate cause of the jin collapse is the xiongnu. this is followed by the "sixteen kingdoms and five barbarians" period (with apologies for the language, but chinese history is great for counting things) which is a pretty good sign that things are not going great just from the name.
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 11:49 |
|
|
Rameses gameplay video. I didn't realize how much of a Troy fork it was! Maybe I've been out of the loop. Troy resources are back, theres something called workforce that appears to the population but different. Provinces have outposts that show up on the map and can be raided https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yNipVHJ1uw
|
|
#
?
Jun 13, 2023 16:47
|
|
