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Byzantine posted:A neat historical connection: the French-Soviet pact of 1935 was explicitly referenced by Hitler as the reason to remilitarize the Rhineland. Not to speak for anyone else, but my read is that people are not arguing from the basis that the US is good, they're arguing that the premise that joining a defensive alliance is an act of aggression is absurd
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Jun 7, 2023 18:18
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I went to public school so these countries didn't come up. Well, that's part of my point - what you heard in school might not be an entirely accurate or complete statement of events, especially since the UK has a lot of patriotic myth-making surrounding WWII and its subsequent decline from global prominence. For example, you describe WWII as devastating the UK. But compared to mainland Europe, it's hard for me to say that the UK was devastated by World War II. The week-long bombing campaign against Hamburg alone killed just as many people as the entire 8-month Blitz did, and many cities in Europe and Japan were completely destroyed by war. Britain certainly faced more damage than it was used to facing, being protected from most military actions by their island status, but the state of London at the end of WWII was absolutely incomparable with the state of Stalingrad or Tokyo. What action do you think the Polish state have taken to better protect its people from the Nazis, without the benefit of being able to see into the future and know what would and wouldn't have worked? Given that Nazi expansionist desires toward Poland were quite obvious, and that Poland had no real hope of fielding a military capable of resisting them, what other choice did they have but to seek mutual defense? Note that "submitting to Nazi rule", while it might have avoided an all-out shooting war in the short term, would not have protected its people (including its considerable Jewish population) from the brutality of Nazi rule. And in any case, it still would have dragged Poland into the Nazis' expansionist wars, as well as forcing the Polish people into being active collaborators in the Nazis' crimes And in that regard, arguments like yours have become a crucial part of revisionist whitewashing among countries that sided with the Nazis and later tried to portray themselves as victims who had only been trying to protect themselves from Nazi aggression. For example, Austria practically welcomed the Wehrmacht in, presented no meaningful resistance to the Nazi occupation and annexation, and a significant amount of the Austrian population actively collaborated in the Holocaust and fought in Germany's wars. But after the war, the new Austrian state portrayed itself as "Hitler's first victims". It was a concept that had been invented by the Allies for various political and propaganda reasons, and was eagerly adopted by Austria as a way to not only forge a new nationalism but also duck responsibility for their part in Nazi crimes. This idea that they simply had no choice but to cooperate with German imperialism was nothing more than post-hoc reasoning designed to erase their complicity. Now, bringing this back around to Ukraine, I don't think you've ever actually stated what "significant errors" the Ukrainian state made, or described how they "handled this crisis wrong". Personally, I'm not sure what they really could have done about the unprovoked imperialism of an openly expansionist and revanchist neighbor with (in theory) a much larger and more powerful military, so I don't know how you can so confidently talk about Ukrainian culpability in this unprovoked and unjustified invasion. Travic posted:Wait, what? A guy who ran Colbert's show tried to Trumpify CNN? What. Have I had a stroke? He got his big break running Joe Scarborough's shows, then did morning shows for a few years before becoming the guy who ran the Late Show. That said, he doesn't seem to have been a full MAGA kind of guy, just a dedicated both-sideser who's incredibly naive. He leaned right, but didn't buy into the full MAGA stuff; it probably would have been less embarrassing if he actually had. Instead, he just thought the hysterical journalists were wildly overexaggerating Trump's issues, and that if he treated Trump fairly like a reasonable adult, Trump would surely reciprocate in kind and stop poo poo-talking CNN.
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Jun 7, 2023 18:20
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Jaxyon posted:I grew up being taught all sorts of lost causer poo poo about the US Civil War. I'm not saying "I grew up learning appeasement was bad ergo it was," but "you can criticize a state's response to s problem without implying the problem is justified or the state's own fault." Main Paineframe posted:Now, bringing this back around to Ukraine, I don't think you've ever actually stated what "significant errors" the Ukrainian state made, or described how they "handled this crisis wrong". I don't have any criticisms of the Ukrainian state. I just don't think it makes sense to dismiss the criticisms of others as "victim blaming." Even if those criticisms are literally always stupid or ridiculous, the analogy to interpersonal violence just doesn't work. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Jun 7, 2023 |
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Jun 7, 2023 18:20
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The Atlantic piece explains it. Basically he had Big News Media Brain and thought he could pull Republican viewers back to CNN by just being "impartial" and showing "both sides fairly". I can't read the article unfortunately. I don't have an account with them. Sorry I'm going through a lot right now so I'm probably not thinking straight. But this is like the nuclear Ghandi wrap-around bug. Did he go far enough left that he wrapped around to Trump?
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Jun 7, 2023 18:25
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I've been told many many times that the best way to handle a mugging is to give the mugger whatever they want unless it's traveling to another location with them. I don't think that's apologia for muggers, I think it's life-saving advice obtained from a coldly logical analysis of what happens when people respond to muggings in different ways. There's a difference between telling someone the best way to handle a mugging is to give the mugger whatever they want, and telling a mugging victim that was stabbed that it wouldn't have happened if they just gave the mugger what they wanted.
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Jun 7, 2023 18:29
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Travic posted:I can't read the article unfortunately. I don't have an account with them. Sorry I'm going through a lot right now so I'm probably not thinking straight. But this is like the nuclear Ghandi wrap-around bug. Did he go far enough left that he wrapped around to Trump? No, he was just inept and mishandled Trump, which to be fair, is also what every single media outlet major and minor has done. Also seems to be a bit of a psycho quote:Three years ago, Licht weighed 226 pounds. Worried that he was losing control of his lifestyle, he went all in. No more breakfast. No drinking during the week. No more carbs or sweets. (“I’m a loving machine,” Licht told me one day, when I asked why he was skipping a meal.) He also found Maysonet, whose gym, J Train, caters to New York’s elite—actors, athletes, business tycoons. On this morning, in March 2023, the CNN boss was down to 178 pounds.
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Jun 7, 2023 18:37
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Travic posted:I can't read the article unfortunately. I don't have an account with them. Sorry I'm going through a lot right now so I'm probably not thinking straight. But this is like the nuclear Ghandi wrap-around bug. Did he go far enough left that he wrapped around to Trump? Journalism brain is different, you have to have dispassionate coverage that treats car dealers screaming about Soros and Zelensky hacking Dominion voting machines as totally serious people who have legitimate concerns and a detailed plan for governance but just disagree with the president on a few issues. If he went left and wrapped around to Trump he would have a podcast, that phenomenon is rare to begin with but everyone who has ever done it has a podcast.
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Jun 7, 2023 18:45
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That excerpt about Zucker seems a little too... kind over the man I mean, maybe his politics & warmth were better than Licht's but lol at the rearview hagiography. edit: Maybe the Atlantic piece mentioned his foibles more than the excerpt did. Willa Rogers fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jun 7, 2023 |
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Jun 7, 2023 18:49
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Papercut posted:Not to speak for anyone else, but my read is that people are not arguing from the basis that the US is good, they're arguing that the premise that joining a defensive alliance is an act of aggression is absurd If Ukraine became a NATO member, wouldn't it host the American military, either as troops or official bases like Poland, Bulgaria and Estonia do? Would America let Mexico host Chinese soldiers and bases? If California had broken off in 1991 and was now cozying up to China, the US would invade no doubt. Or for one that's not a counterfactual, American missiles in Turkey is just protecting our defensive alliance buddies, Russian missiles in Cuba is 
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Jun 7, 2023 18:49
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Ok. It just boggled my mind that he would run a show making fun of Trump and Republicans daily then one day just go, "You know who's getting a bad rap? Trump. I'm going to set up a town hall where people can clap at his racism."
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Jun 7, 2023 18:56
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't have any criticisms of the Ukrainian state. I just don't think it makes sense to dismiss the criticisms of others as "victim blaming." Even if those criticisms are literally always stupid or ridiculous, the analogy to interpersonal violence just doesn't work. Some of the political decisions of Ukraine since the war started are less than ideal, but in regards to how and why the war started, I literally see no way they could have improved their situation. Right from the beginning of this; in 2014 Ukraine was in the middle of a popular revolution, they were entirely focused on fixing a historic internal political crisis, Russia decides to annex Crimea and invade Donbass with literally zero provocation. It's 2014, Ukraine is not in NATO, not even working with NATO and the prospect of joining was on no-one's mind.... until Russia invaded them. Cut to 2022, Ukraine has been supplied and trained by NATO in direct response to 2014, but up until the bombs start falling on them the official government position is that there would not be a war, they do not move any substantial troops to the borders, they did everything they could to not provoke Russia. Historically most countries would have done a lot more in response to Russia's invasion preparations, it's possible Ukraine could have held more ground had they been more confrontational in the lead up. But they opted to give Russia zero excuses for triggering a war. If Russia's issue was with NATO expansion, they should have pointed their aggression at a NATO country. But they targeted a completely unaligned country in 2014, forcing said country into NATO just as Sweden and Finland have been forced over. Their choice of victim completely deflates even the implication that NATO expansion was what drove Russia to this, Russia imperialism is solely to blame and we should all see in hindsight that all the appeasement of Putin was for naught. The other nail in the coffin for the NATO theory is the genocide Russia is carrying out against Ukrainian culture and language, that also has absolutely nothing to do with NATO expansion and everything to do with Putin's vision of restoring the Empire. To keep it on the level, the US was similarly imperialistic in invading Iraq, just minus the overt genocide of Iraq's language and culture.
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Jun 7, 2023 18:56
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Travic posted:Ok. It just boggled my mind that he would run a show making fun of Trump and Republicans daily then one day just go, "You know who's getting a bad rap? Trump. I'm going to set up a town hall where people can clap at his racism." From a NYMag piece after Zucker's quote:It’s a long fall for Zucker, who began his career as the “the Today show’s 27-year-old executive producer and bratty child star,” in the words of Spy magazine at the time. Of course, his legacy will also be bound up with that of Donald Trump. Zucker rehabbed Trump’s career in 2004 by green-lighting The Apprentice. During the early days of his first presidential run, Trump was ratings gold for CNN, which covered him incessantly before he turned on it as “fake news.” When tapes leaked of Zucker on a call with Michael Cohen in 2016, offering up debate advice for Trump and saying that he had “all these proposals” for a weekly show with Trump, few were surprised. As Trump himself put it in a 2015 interview with The Hollywood Reporter: “Jeff is a friend of mine, but if I didn’t get ratings he would not have all Trump all the time. I kid him about it.” https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/02/the-mystery-behind-jeff-zuckers-cnn-resignation.html
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Jun 7, 2023 19:02
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Byzantine posted:If Ukraine became a NATO member, wouldn't it host the American military, either as troops or official bases like Poland, Bulgaria and Estonia do? Would America let Mexico host Chinese soldiers and bases? If California had broken off in 1991 and was now cozying up to China, the US would invade no doubt. If Russia didn't want its neighbors to get US military bases it could start by not invading and genociding the ones with no US military bases. This isn't a nonsense counterfactual like California seceding and joining China either, Russia greatly increased the length of its borders with NATO members as a direct result of invading Ukraine.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:08
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Byzantine posted:If Ukraine became a NATO member, wouldn't it host the American military, either as troops or official bases like Poland, Bulgaria and Estonia do? Nothing in the NATO charter says the US gets to put troops in your country. Norway, Denmark, and Iceland all specifically disallowed peacetime military bases, nuclear weapons, or other allied military operations without specific invitation in their territory when they joined. France very famously pulled out of the shared military command in the '60s and there is no US presence to this day. Joining NATO does not mean the US gets to do whatever it wants on your soil - it means that the US will defend you if you are attacked. quote:Or for one that's not a counterfactual, American missiles in Turkey is just protecting our defensive alliance buddies, Russian missiles in Cuba is The Cuban missile crisis, famously solved by diplomacy rather than an invasion (which removed those missiles in Turkey as part of the agreement), and left Cuba firmly in the Soviet sphere with US promises to respect its sovereignty.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:11
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Travic posted:Wait, what? A guy who ran Colbert's show tried to Trumpify CNN? What. Have I had a stroke? Perhaps he didn't understand that Colbert's character was a bit rather than real.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:12
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Byzantine posted:If Ukraine became a NATO member, wouldn't it host the American military, either as troops or official bases like Poland, Bulgaria and Estonia do? Would America let Mexico host Chinese soldiers and bases? If California had broken off in 1991 and was now cozying up to China, the US would invade no doubt. In your analogy where the US broke up in 1991, which largest state that had conquered all of the other ones to form the United States chooses to invade California a second/third time?
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Jun 7, 2023 19:15
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It’s interesting that people use the Cuban missile crisis as a comparison because I don’t think there are many of us in this thread that think America’s actions against Cuba were good. If you’re saying “well this is just what big nations do” then ok but what we’re saying is that its bad that they do that.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:20
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Travic posted:I can't read the article unfortunately. I don't have an account with them. Sorry I'm going through a lot right now so I'm probably not thinking straight. But this is like the nuclear Ghandi wrap-around bug. Did he go far enough left that he wrapped around to Trump? He wasn't politically in line with Colbert in the first place. He was the kind of guy who thought he could keep politics separate from the job and just impartially produce a good show even if it didn't align with his personal politics. Then, like a lot of older white members of the elite classes, COVID restrictions completely knocked him out of his comfort zone since they actually affected him personally, and that got him concerned that other rising leftist issues might be going too far. quote:Later that day, while riding the Acela from New York to Washington, Licht expanded on his media polemic. Specifically, he wanted to keep talking about COVID-19. Like Trump’s presidency, Licht told me, the pandemic had exposed the degree to which his network had lost touch with the country. quote:Right on cue, one of Luntz’s students asked Licht about the trap of false equivalency. She seemed less interested in litigating the respective crimes of Fox News and MSNBC—though that played into her question—and more concerned with Licht’s overall attitude toward the news. There is, she reminded him, “one truth” on some fundamental questions facing the country. Trump had lost the 2020 election; Barack Obama had been born in the United States; we know how many deaths have been caused by COVID. Also, he had a severe case of "centrist journalist brain" and thought that Trump wasn't actually that bad, and that the media had just given into his trolling and exaggerated his threat. Licht was convinced that Trump would be no big deal, that CNN journalists would be able to just roll up there with facts and logic and have a nice civil discussion with the MAGAs. quote:The final question was straightforward. A young woman asked Licht how, given his harsh critiques of CNN’s past performance, the network planned to cover Trump this time around. quote:Licht said Trump had done “really bad poo poo” as president that reporters sometimes missed because they were obsessing over more sensational stories. Trump had goaded the media with “outrage porn,” provoking journalists to respond with such indignation, so often, that audiences began to tune out. “When everything is an 11” on a scale of 10, Licht said, “it means that when there’s something really awful happening, we’re kind of numb to it. That was a strategy. And I felt like the media was falling for that strategy.”
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Jun 7, 2023 19:21
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Skex posted:Perhaps he didn't understand that Colbert's character was a bit rather than real. Colberts current show is not done in character.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:28
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Jaxyon posted:Colberts current show is not done in character. Ah I thought Litch was from the Colbert Report not his current one
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Jun 7, 2023 19:42
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zoux posted:No, he was just inept and mishandled Trump, which to be fair, is also what every single media outlet major and minor has done. I'm not sure there's a way to ethically give Trump airtime, period.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:52
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure there's a way to ethically give Trump airtime, period. Idk if it was something like the Ceausescu's last public appearance it could be considered public interest
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Jun 7, 2023 19:54
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure there's a way to ethically give Trump airtime, period. Keith Olberman and AOC as moderators.
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Jun 7, 2023 19:56
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure there's a way to ethically give Trump airtime, period. You think the leading Republican candidate for the presidential election next year shouldn't get airtime?
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Jun 7, 2023 19:57
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Willa Rogers posted:You think the leading Republican candidate for the presidential election next year shouldn't get airtime? Normally this would be a non-question, buuuut normally a sitting President doesn't incite a coup against his own government to stay in power. Trump should just be in jail, he should not be allowed to run for any office ever again.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm not sure there's a way to ethically give Trump airtime, period. Shock collar that triggers whenever he talks over someone or exceeds his time limit?
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Jun 7, 2023 20:06
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Willa Rogers posted:You think the leading Republican candidate for the presidential election next year shouldn't get airtime? This is not a refutation. Trump should have airtime as the leading candidate. It is probably impossible to do so in an ethical way given his insistence on being able to spout half-truths and worse at will. Both these sentiments can be true.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:10
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Skex posted:Perhaps he didn't understand that Colbert's character was a bit rather than real. No he ran the new show .
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Jun 7, 2023 20:10
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Robviously posted:This is not a refutation. Trump should have airtime as the leading candidate. It is probably impossible to do so in an ethical way given his insistence on being able to spout half-truths and worse at will. Both these sentiments can be true. Trump shouldn't be given airtime, period. That he is going to be the Republican presidential candidate doesn't validate him, it just further proves the Republican party should be banned from running candidates. The fact that that won't happen advocates strongly for the dissolution of the country.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:13
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Fascists should not get a platform. If the Republicans want to have airtime, then they should not be fascists. "Do not be a fascist" is an incredibly low standard to hold people to.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:21
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Willa Rogers posted:You think the leading Republican candidate for the presidential election next year shouldn't get airtime? It's a paradox of tolerance issue; there's no ethical way to platform fascists. Fortunately since all our media conglomerates are private there's no 1st amendment issue in it. Bel Shazar posted:That he is going to be the Republican presidential candidate doesn't validate him, it just further proves the Republican party should be banned from running candidates. The republicans should be allowed to run candidates; we let all sorts of horrible people declare candidacy. Nobody should vote for them though!
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Jun 7, 2023 20:22
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Trump isn't Beetlejuice, you can report on his campaign without giving him free airtime.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:22
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Robviously posted:This is not a refutation. Trump should have airtime as the leading candidate. It is probably impossible to do so in an ethical way given his insistence on being able to spout half-truths and worse at will. Both these sentiments can be true. As I've said, I think Collins did as much pushback as humanly possible in the Trump town hall on CNN; I even posted the transcript to show how she did so, and asked for specific critiques of anything she did or did. I don't know what more she could have done to meet an "ethical" standard as long as he was on the network, so maybe it is an all-or-nothing proposition, but censoring the leading major-party presidential candidate from appearing it all strikes me as absurd, as if he'll go away if he doesn't get airtime, even while half of all voters say they'd choose to vote for him over the sitting president.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:25
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It’s pretty funny to me that the idea is that we just have to not give Trump coverage. First of all, says who? Because the people making that decision are comfortable putting him on the air. It makes them money. They don’t give a gently caress about the impact on society or the nation because those things don’t affect them, they breathe the rarified air that isn’t stunk up by Trump policies. Secondly, how far are you willing to go on that? Say he wins again and does the thing where he preemptively announces a wild, lovely policy out of nowhere. Just not cover it? Have the reporters cover it but not show him announcing? That’s just bad TV. Ultimately the answer is better Democrats to respond to him (lol) or better journalists (which is a different thing than a TV news presenter, which is what Collins and nearly every other personality on TV news is) being able to speak truthfully, which both politicians and journalists have an incredibly lovely well-earned reputation for right now. Class struggle is right there if you want to paint a lovely reactionary wealth golem in a way that any working American would respond to, but it’s impossible for a millionaire news personality to wield that tool.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:32
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Byzantine posted:A neat historical connection: the French-Soviet pact of 1935 was explicitly referenced by Hitler as the reason to remilitarize the Rhineland. Say whatever you want about appeasement, I don't think it excuses or justifies allying with the Nazis and carving up their neighbors between them. Papercut posted:Not to speak for anyone else, but my read is that people are not arguing from the basis that the US is good, they're arguing that the premise that joining a defensive alliance is an act of aggression is absurd That is also how I am reading this. In retrospect, letting Ukraine join NATO would've prevented a lot of suffering.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:43
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's a paradox of tolerance issue; there's no ethical way to platform fascists. Fortunately since all our media conglomerates are private there's no 1st amendment issue in it. The party shouldn't exist, let alone be on ballots.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:48
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Papercut posted:Not to speak for anyone else, but my read is that people are not arguing from the basis that the US is good, they're arguing that the premise that joining a defensive alliance is an act of aggression is absurd I feel the need to just change my forums name to AMERICA BAD(one could argue socialsecurity is an example of how America half asses everything) just so everytime I attempt to talk about anything else someone goes "but what about America it did bad thing" Like I can think the poo poo America does is evil while also think the poo poo Russia is currently doing is evil.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:49
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To be clear, I am not saying Trump deserves an iota of airtime. He should get none and be sent to whatever his current sycophants of the week are; OAN, Newsmax, Twitter. I was more arguing the point that "noting there is no ethical way to give him airtime" does not equate to "he shouldn't get airtime." We see unethical behavior all the time perpetuated by stations aiming to get ratings/sponsors, we should stop them but lol at the current news culture trying to do so.
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Jun 7, 2023 20:59
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Bel Shazar posted:The party shouldn't exist, let alone be on ballots. I don't know how you outlaw specific political parties in an ethical way. Not saying it isn't possible just that I don't know how you'd go about it. Much if not all the current leadership of the Republican party should be in jail though, which may be the answer. If everyone who tried to overthrow the government were in jail right now we'd have a lot fewer Republican incumbents.
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Jun 7, 2023 21:03
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Jimmy Pesto Sr was finally popped for participating in the Jan 6th insurrection. The schadenfreude, unlike his Pesto Burger, is delicious. https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/jay-johnston-bobs-burgers-jan-6-riot-arrested-1235636335/ It's amazing that 2+ years later, we are still chugging along scooping up these fools and proving the "gently caress around & find out" equation.
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Jun 7, 2023 21:12
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