|
Lets do this with all mediums next. Lets have a thread where I misinterpret all digital art as just pressing buttons in photoshop and complain about it being derivative, I'll go pick out random people posting their work and talk about how lovely it is and how they're just copying preestablished fantasy tropes. Then we can ask them to go get dogpiled on in another thread.
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 03:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:27 |
|
|
Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 05:42
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. I don't think it's your fault, but it's the state of things in the thread you want us to go in. Like, I have invested a lot of time into AI stuff (I've mentioned before my projects, all pushing 50 to 100 hours each to do, all involve really pushing the edge of this stuff.) I'm not gonna say I'm an expert, because it's an insanely complicated and nuanced topic. But, what's gonna happen if I go over there and offer a dissenting opinion? (Not that I would because I'm not super active in this subforum, I just play DnD, so it feels wrong) It's not that I would be disagreed with, that's whatever and probably good. But, you ever had a conversation with people who saw like one documentary on a topic you know really well? BrainDance fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 06:29
|
|
|
Yeah I pretty much gave up on this thread already because everytime it got going people came in and poo poo all over it about ethics of AI. Like I just want cool pics of the Otter-people in my homebrew setting, I don't need to hear your scaremongering about killing artists.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 06:54
|
|
|
Yeah, there does seem to be a knee jerk response from a lot of people. Mainly I guess because it's a new and poorly understood area for a lot of people. It all feels like there is no discussion with a lot of the posters. The opening post of that discussion was along the lines of "we need to hate these people off the forums because I disagree with them". This is a dangerous thing, if I said this about someone's race or religion I would be rightfully banned. But arguing with people of that mindset is like trying to argue with a religious person over their faith, it's not worth the effort and no one looks good at the end of it, and you have no chance of changing their minds. I do agree however that low content ai posting or posting out of context should be discouraged, like all low content or OOC posting in general, but an anti ai witch hunt is also not the option.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 07:07
|
|
|
Look at the DnD thread. We keep it going but there have been multiple posters who just come in a say "heres a statement, it is true for no argument no reason, it just is because I'm saying it" We had one guy recently straight up explode on the concept of open source software (at least that's the actual conclusion of his argument) because he couldn't accept that EleutherAI was an actual open source group training foundation models. I am biased, obviously, but I really struggle to see how anyone could take half this poo poo and be like" yeah, good point that's a good argument premises = conclusion" but it's not really about that for a lot of people. I seriously think people should imagine these kind of discussions happening with other mediums or styles. You can't make those arguments because you'd get probated. And you should, because it's real lovely to go to an artist posting their stuff and be like "I don't really know much about your medium but this is garbage, absolutely soulless. Must have taken you, what, 5 minutes? Also I don't think you invented generic anime style." So how do you even have a conversation then? We go over in that thread and, what do we accomplish? This is all poo poo people were saying about digital art in the early/mid 2000s. And I'm not just vaguely remembering, I was there in it at the time. I heard all of this then. So what happens if you go and make those arguments to a digital artists on SA now? You pick something like this  And let it represent all digital art and talk about how trash and low effort it is and so it's all just low effort trash.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 07:31
|
|
|
I just don't have the fire anymore to discuss things that go against the majority, you know? I'm too old for this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 07:57
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. If people post low-effort stuff in other threads (just a random pic and output from ChatGPT without any context to why they are posting) then yes, absolutely probate low-effort posts. The post that was brought up as their example of "breaking containment" was a good example, but it also received only one random comment and didn't even derail that thread. Maybe its because I've been sitting too long on the Chronicles of Darkness discord server where people will randomly insert their 5-page fanfics into the middle of other conversations (and everyone just ignores them and keeps talking), but I don't really see any reason to come up with any complicated rule beyond "don't empty post". I think most of us here would just use AI art in the process of running our home poo poo, and if we're talking on topic about our games and use generated text or images as part of the game then it should be fine.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 08:59
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. LOL did you read the thread? It's a thread for people who are fanatically against using AI generators for anything and thinks it's immoral. I kinda like to argue so I'm tempted to post my views in there but it's just gonna rile people up and accomplish nothing if theyr all already discussing whether they should bully people off the board or just ban them for posting their AI pics of NPCs. E I don't think it's a "lost argument" just a pointless one, AI is already quarantined to this thread but that's not enough for these people? Just tell them to gently caress off imo. Banning it from the whole site is a stupid idea, it clearly drives some people up the wall though so fine give them spaces to not see it. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 09:10
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:E I don't think it's a "lost argument" just a pointless one, AI is already quarantined to this thread but that's not enough for these people? Just tell them to gently caress off imo.  Also, if you're going to ban low effort AI posting, why is low effort non-AI posting like this post fine
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 09:58
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. Laying aside the question of ethics, a "No AI art in SA except where allowed" would be pointless because it's impossible to tell definitively whether a pic is AI drawn, unless it has 8 fingers or something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 11:42
|
|
|
There's a question of where you draw the line on what is "AI art" and what is "AI-assisted" art. If I generate something as a base layer then extensively modify it by hand, is it still AI art as defined by the rules of this forum? What about if I do a detailed sketch of a composition and use AI to overpaint it in another style? What if I make a full digital painting and use AI to adjust some wonky facial anatomy? Or use AI relighting to change the lighting source from right to left? Or use AI to upscale it? What about if I modify an AI base using only AI tools, but do so in a way where I meticulously change every pixel through hundreds of generative edits to get exactly what I envision? What if I generate AI elements and then extensively animate them? Or use AI to do smart interpolation between frames that I've drawn by hand? Or use AI generated images to get inspiration for a composition, then overpaint by hand on top of it? It's a question of authorship, really, and that's a much larger debate than most critics are engaging with. If an artist's traditional medium is collage made from magazine cutouts, how is that any different than creating a piece using generated images as a base? Is a musician making a song entirely out of samples not an artist, and is their art invalidated? If someone makes fanart and copies the style and character and costume design from another artist, does it become less "theirs"? Does that change if they're instead commissioned to create official commercial art of the same character? Does a writer lose authorship if they use spellcheck and grammar check? What if a dyslexic writer uses AI to reword their first draft? At the end of the day, there is no single answer. It's all arbitrary, and it's up to how each individual defines what constitutes artistry and where they draw the line for what level of AI-assistance is acceptable to them. And if the line is "anything touched by a generative transformer" then that battle has already been lost with Photoshop incorporating generative fill. It's coming. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in. The problem here is that most critics think AI art is a "give me a finished piece" button when it really, really isn't—it's a suite of tools that you can utilize as much or as little as you'd like. Google Docs is on the edge of adding a suite of AI writing tools. The largest graphics editing software in the world has now incorporated generative fill into the Beta version of their product and soon it will be in everyone's hands. And having used it, it's a truly game-changing, incredible tool for digital artists that gives unprecedented control over their work and will save them a vast amount of time, allowing them to create more art more freely. If someone wants to dismiss an artist's work because they utilized those tools at some point in the process they can, but it'll have the same weight as those who dismissed "computer art" in the 80s and 90s. Sure, there's tons of low-effort garbage out there that sucks. Of couse! And there's so many dweebs displaying something they put no time or effort into as their own great masterwork, and they can produce an avalanche of garbage at a whim. There will be a flood of garbage, but quality work will always rise to the top, whether AI-assisted or not. Those loud dummies are obfuscating what's really about to happen in the digital art landscape, which is artists having access to new incredible tools that they can use to create whatever they choose. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 14:44
|
|
|
Good Artists copy, Great Artists Steal, Everything is a Remix. All art is built on top of what came before it, generative art is just letting us do it a lot faster. There's this weird phenomenon of gatekeeping that's pretty much exclusive to illustrative art (2d drawing, painting etc), I think it's because the vast majority of people believe that illustration is some sort of magical ability people are born with as opposed to a skill that is developed with tons of practice like anything else. Everytime there's been an advance that makes it easier for artists to create art, there have been well meaning but ignorant people wringing their hands about how this is"the death of art! Nobody will employ artists because they can just use this new new technology to crap out soulless garbage!" It happend with digital painting, it happened with 3d sculpting and 3d animation, it happened with photography, it happened with manufactured pre-mixed paints, I'm sure there was some caveman who complained that brushes were going to put cave painter who used their hands out of business. Every single time those people have been hilariously wrong, not only did it not kill art or artists it allowed artists to expand their horizons and work on actual creative work it created a world filled with more art and more artists not less.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 15:08
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. I appreciate what you're doing and don't think it's a lost cause. I feel like the position of being a moderate is to strike the balance in the community for there being a space for discussion of something that's new and likely going to have far reaching effects and accommodating those who have valid criticisms and would like to see less of it. I think it's worth while to try to strike that balance and to de-escalate some of the rhetoric.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 15:26
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. Communist Thoughts posted:LOL did you read the thread? It's a thread for people who are fanatically against using AI generators for anything and thinks it's immoral. There are no one in that thread defending AI posting not because there is no one who disagrees with them - as it turns out there is quite a few people here who do - but because every time someone tries to post something about how they use AI for their games (and most people I play with do it) there is relentless hostility and you do nothing to stop it. Now they're so emboldened by this, that merely shoving everyone into one thread and unrestrained harassment whenever someone posts outside it is no longer enough for them, the harassment needs to be pushed through into the forum rules. They need to make sure that we should feel unwelcome. And it's working, I do feel unwelcome and you've allowed it to happen. What you were supposed to do was not let it get to this point. Here's the start of the "discussion" as linked by you: Ominous Jazz posted:Collectively we need to be meaner to people who break out of the ai containment thread because drat it's never anything cool PurpleXVI posted:One hundred percent agreement. The fact that I'm reminded there even needs to be an AI containment thread is unhappy. Xiahou Dun posted:God yes. And in the next post instead of "ok, how about you don't incite hostility against other posters" you go "um uh would you like me to just put it into the rules that they shouldn't post at all, since it's their fault you have to be mean to them because they're posting." Like, it's your suggestion. If there is a hostile mob of posters who just can't control themselves but start hateposting every time someone posts their PC's portrait, it's not the portrait-poster who should be asked to stop. What you're supposed to do is tell them to stop doing that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 16:02
|
|
|
I think we're being a little overly harsh here towards Leperflesh who is giving it a good try to make this a fair discussion of both sides. Like some of the arguments coming out from some of us aren't that great and I'm not surprised if they aren't convincing. Some of the "anti ai" people being overly hostile could be less hostile but we could also be a bit better in how we present the hobby too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 16:11
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:Well, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. I'm generally posting in favor of keeping this thread and challenging the arguments against use of AI art and text in the feedback thread, but if folks here feel like it's a lost argument anyway, I don't know what I'm supposed to do really. Not sure what makes you think it's a lost argument? We're not throwing up our hands and saying "ban AI" we are saying that if the rest of Trad Games doesn't want random AI art or generated poo poo in the threads, then so be it. We'll just keep it here and the ones that don't will get probed. Problem solved. I do want to thank you for bringing that thread to the this thread's attention. At least we got a chance to give input. And I agree with others, at the end of the day, gently caress any opinion (even ours). Do what you think is right. (although I hope you don't ban all AI material)
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 16:13
|
|
|
In the end I would be pretty content to stay as it is. I also think people are overreacting to a very limited number of posts.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 16:26
|
|
|
I think it's a valid concern that if we do have a rule that flat bans ai art outside of containment threads, we'll just get this sort of escalating witch hunt sort of culture of hostility and accusations and litigation. I think it'd be better if it was more of a gentlemanly agreement where the expectation is low effort ai content is not posted, you won't be asked about the ai art if you don't mention it as long as the art or content in question is of a transformative nature that enhances the post in some holistic way. Have like a 500 word after action report how a session went and a couple of AI portraits were used? They're a minimal aspect of the post and shouldn't be a problem or cause litigation, probe the trouble makers and shut stirrers. Someone just dropping a bunch of AI images or text in the chat threat apropos of nothing? That can be hit, sure. Seems like the contention is around ai art appearing outside of specified threads and my opinion is it should be allowed within reason but I guess push back or criticism can be expected but proportional to its use I feel, like the ethics of commercial ai art is a lot more sketch in my opinion and there's more likelyness of decreasing harm in engaging in that conversation with that than with individual private use hobbyists.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 16:52
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:I think we're being a little overly harsh here towards Leperflesh who is giving it a good try to make this a fair discussion of both sides. Like some of the arguments coming out from some of us aren't that great and I'm not surprised if they aren't convincing. Some of the "anti ai" people being overly hostile could be less hostile but we could also be a bit better in how we present the hobby too. I wasn't trying to hate on the guy personally. I like him and think he's usually pretty reasonable, but he's the one who kicked off the ball by suggesting the rule changes and he's the one who solicited feedback here, and I feel the way the toxicity has been handled in general is a failure of the TG mods.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 17:08
|
|
|
Megazver posted:There are no one in that thread defending AI posting not because there is no one who disagrees with them - as it turns out there is quite a few people here who do - but because every time someone tries to post something about how they use AI for their games (and most people I play with do it) there is relentless hostility and you do nothing to stop it. Now they're so emboldened by this, that merely shoving everyone into one thread and unrestrained harassment whenever someone posts outside it is no longer enough for them, the harassment needs to be pushed through into the forum rules. They need to make sure that we should feel unwelcome. It's noticeable that one side is trying to explain their point of view and the other is swearing and calling the other thieves. There is not going to be a rational debate in these conditions.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 17:45
|
|
|
Gotta say as someone with very little stake in the game, the posts pointed to on the other thread are quite troubling, and the fact that they haven't been touched by the mods at all, let alone swatted down immediately, is even more so. I don't feel like we should be encouraging "let's be even meaner to the people who are already 'contained'" (and isn't that a loaded word...).
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 17:55
|
|
|
Grey Hunter posted:It all feels like there is no discussion with a lot of the posters. The opening post of that discussion was along the lines of "we need to hate these people off the forums because I disagree with them". Why did you compare being badgered for your use of ai tools to being persecuted for your religion or race. It's incredibly tasteless, one step removed from those 'first they came for the X' remixes that people do entirely out of sarcasm.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 18:04
|
|
|
I'll happy concede that point. It's nowhere on the same scale, and was a poorly chosen analogy. A much better level would be hating on anyone who plays D&D or Warhammer because I dislike how their dominace and mediocrity stifles other parts of their respective genre. Grey Hunter fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 18:35
|
|
|
Somewhere a Warhammer exec cries whenever someone 3D prints a mini.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 18:43
|
|
|
Raenir Salazar posted:Somewhere a Warhammer exec cries whenever someone 3D prints a mini. And rightfully so. Mantic, on the other hand, just launched their own stl service for official models.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 19:00
|
|
|
Nobody gets agro when somebody posts a picture of a 3d printed model in the minis threads.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:40
|
|
|
Or of traditional art based off of someone else's work, for that matter.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:13
|
|
|
Several of you have posted in the feedback thread, and I appreciate that, thank you. This morning I replied to a handful of posts that I viewed as going beyond some acceptable level of "passionate debate" and just slinging insults - that's not OK in the feedback thread, and I'm not interested in creating a policy where that'd be generally accepted anywhere. To avoid repeating myself I'll continue to post my views and takes on the discussion, over there in the feedback thread. I'll just add that if you have something you want to say in the feedback thread but you don't want to post it under your account for fear of retaliation, you can PM a mod to paste it anonymously, as mentioned in the feedback thread's OP. If you prefer not to PM myself or Anti, some of the admins who pay closer attention to TG include sebmojo, Video Games, and hand knit, and you are welcome to use admins to provide anonymous feedback too.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:30
|
|
|
you're doing your best, this topic is a hornets nest tho you don't really get to hear from artists who use these tools because they'll be dogpiled and blacklisted so hard so you only hear from either anxious artists who've never used them or the friends of anxious artists i do think some acceptable open source version of them is basically inevitable. the possiblities for your own projects are too great. at some point i'll try and figure out how to make my own open source SD model based on my own art and finally become a one-man comic studio. then i'll be the one laughing, i never did have to learn how to draw a horse or a foot!
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:47
|
|
|
I get the fear. I honestly do. I write and when Clarkesworld had to close submissions because of people bombarding them with AI crap, I got a very real taste of what it feels like. I am not myself fearful but some have legit concerns. Thing is the cream is already in the coffee and no amount of stirring will get it out again. Banning and ridicule is just pissing upwind. I am most pissed at the dumb gently caress executives and companies who immediately jumped on the bandwagon and cut real human jobs. Those people I’d like to meet in a dark alley some night. So I could yell at them. IMO AI itself is not the problem, but the moron humans who are abusing it in order to make a buck. Same as it ever was.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 01:46
|
|
|
feedmyleg posted:Is a musician making a song entirely out of samples not an artist, and is their art invalidated? But honestly it's weird that this point needs to be even argued in the context of loving tabletop, outside of... Rutibex's? handbook stuffing nobody's really angling to turn LLM-assisted sessions into a career
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 06:41
|
|
|
Might be a derail but I hear rutibex mentioned all the time but have no idea who that is, what's the deal there?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 12:54
|
|
|
He was the OP of this thread. You can see the stuff he made on the first few pages. Then he said something very stupid somewhere else and was permabanned.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 13:00
|
|
|
And basically everyone in all the AI threads thought he was being a giant dumbass. It was incredibly funny though. I would give an overview of what happened but I actually only remember it being funny not the details of what he said to be sure I'd be right telling it. What I do remember though is that he tried to make an argument about AI humanity, I guess, using "Well, I work with mentally handicap children and they're still people. And AI is smarter than them" Which got him probated I think for obvious reasons. But then he raged out and did a banme about it. It got real weird at the end with him being definitely not a representative sample of the people that use AI but just weird. BrainDance fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Jun 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 13:14
|
|
|
Grey Hunter posted:I'll happy concede that point. It's nowhere on the same scale, and was a poorly chosen analogy. Megazver posted:He was the OP of this thread. You can see the stuff he made on the first few pages. Then he said something very stupid somewhere else and was permabanned. BrainDance posted:And basically everyone in all the AI threads thought he was being a giant dumbass. Rutibex posted:yes humans become humans because they absorb language. the medium where their mind resides isn't the important part, it's the information relationships Fluffdaddy posted:User requested. Doesn't want to post on a forum that doesn't recognize chat robots should have human rights. Incessantly, because he ignored people telling him he was a loving moron.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 14:10
|
|
|
Drakyn posted:
I knew I recognized him from somewhere before the AI stuff. I'm bad at remembering what different people post because I just don't really care or pay attention but I felt like he was around in some of the China threads before. All the China threads have had, in their past, some of the single worst takes imaginable so now I am half tempted to go see if that's where I recognized him from and what those probably bad racist (we used to have a lot of that in the China threads) posts were.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 14:21
|
|
|
Drakyn posted:Thank you. Yeah the main reason I wasn't active in this thread until he was tossed out was because of those posts about slavery and Islam. gently caress that dude. Honestly we should just have this thread helldumped and start a new one, but considering the tone and vibe in the TG discussion thread that would just stoke the fire for, "well why would you let those filthy AIphiles start a new thread?!? Just helldump it forever!"
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 16:15
|
|
|
I think a lot of people have seen how technological advancement has destroyed the field of translation as a viable career. They don’t trust other people who say they’re going to be nuanced and use pattern recognition for creating products in a way that won’t hurt them individually. As someone who does copywriting, it’s extremely hard to get freelance work now because people use pattern- generated pitches. Instead of competing with eight other people for a gig, buyers are now looking through thousands of nearly identical pitches. It’s not that I can’t write better, it’s that good writing can be buried in the thousands of lovely entries.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 16:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 09:27 |
|
|
Golden Bee posted:I think a lot of people have seen how technological advancement has destroyed the field of translation as a viable career. They don’t trust other people who say they’re going to be nuanced and use pattern recognition for creating products in a way that won’t hurt them individually. Like 15 years ago I had a friend who now works heavily in machine learning though it's primarily for NASA tell me, when I had started doing some RPG writing type stuff and talking about how I'd maybe try to become a novel writer that I had better have a backup career because in the next 10-20 years I'd be out of a job. I had already been on track to go into medicine, but man I am so glad I did. Dodged that bullet. The chances of an AI replacing me in my current field is pretty negligible... all the data is already showing that even a person working remotely isn't good enough for patients, let alone a literal machine. Unsurprisingly humans who are sick and in pain want empathy and presence from another human being, who'd have thunk it. (definitely not those piece of poo poo MBAs) Fuzz fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Jun 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 16:32
|
|