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cat botherer posted:Eco-Stalin, not Eco-Hitler. The changes that need to happen are enormous. You seem to think its unnecessary or dumb or fascistic just because they're so huge. There seems to be a subtext of it being better to make middling changes - the prospect of needing such seismic shifts is grim, therefore they must not be necessary. It took a lot to get us to this point, it will take a lot to get out. Eco-Stalin is awfully unappealing but I'd be quite okay and supportive of some kind of Eco-FDR or Eco-Truman. You again keep making some wild assumption but to be absolutely clear I do believe we need fundamental changes to our way of life or humanity is indeed going to hit a hard brick wall and it's going to hurt. A lot.
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Jun 9, 2023 19:59
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:etcetera
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Jun 9, 2023 20:02
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:Eco-Stalin is awfully unappealing but I'd be quite okay and supportive of some kind of Eco-FDR or Eco-Truman. You again keep making some wild assumption but to be absolutely clear I do believe we need fundamental changes to our way of life or humanity is indeed going to hit a hard brick wall and it's going to hurt. A lot.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:02
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That I think the changes are required are dumb or unnecessary. They absolutely are necessary I just think it's politically impossible.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:05
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Vote.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:07
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That I think the changes are required are dumb or unnecessary. They absolutely are necessary I just think it's politically impossible. It is politically impossible now, and it probably will continue to be politically impossible until far too late. However, there is a chance. This small chance requires the overthrow of the current political-economic system. The capitalist power structures we have are incapable of taking necessary steps without effectively ceding their own power, which will never happen voluntarily. As late capitalism's flailings worsen under its contradictions, this will happen eventually. However, the replacement could just as easily be something like some kind of neo-feudalism and result in no improvement. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jun 9, 2023 |
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Jun 9, 2023 20:15
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:That I think the changes are required are dumb or unnecessary. They absolutely are necessary I just think it's politically impossible. Not with Eco-Stalin in charge though!
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Jun 9, 2023 20:15
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I think another critical aspect is that emission have largely peaked or are pretty damned close to doing so over the next decade despite our current economic system of capitalism. Catastrophic nightmare scenarios of RCP 8.5 are no longer feasible. Granted, it's still really bad. I also don't agree that a shift to a different economic system is a silver bullet. Command economics have had plenty of awful environmental catastrophes.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:20
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:So... Eco-Hitler? Yeah, or just Hitler. He did manage to reduce Germany's carbon emissions to almost zero in only 6 years.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:21
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GABA ghoul posted:Yeah, or just Hitler. He did manage to reduce Germany's carbon emissions to almost zero in only 6 years. Pretty conflicting fella, is what I'm saying.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:23
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I think another critical aspect is that emission have largely peaked or are pretty damned close to doing so over the next decade despite our current economic system of capitalism. Catastrophic nightmare scenarios of RCP 8.5 are no longer feasible. Granted, it's still really bad.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:30
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I'm not sure if we could get 2.0°C out of Eco-Stalin, but we would certainly get some cool rear end luxury dachas with golden toilets and private zoos and rivers that are 20% phenol by volume out of it. Maybe even one or two of those famous cannibal islands. After all, if there is one thing politicians are famous for it is to be incredibly uncorrupt once you remove all checks and balances/separation of powers and oversight through an independent press.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:48
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cat botherer posted:Yeah, they may be. However, it's not a contradiction to say something is both necessary to the continued existence of something, and impossible. It just means that the continued existence of that thing is impossible. I'm not sure I agree with this part. Capitalism is primarily about greed (IMHO), and it's totally possible to exploit that to achieve the goals and ends we need, even on a mass scale. If stuff like the CHIPS Act and the Inflation Reduction Act are able to cause a manufacturing and green energy boom in a matter of mere months (because corporation wants a piece of the pie) then similar things should be possible for say building a nation-wide high-speed rail network.
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Jun 9, 2023 20:50
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I don't think capitalism is really the problem. There's this idea that capitalism is forcing us to behave in this way so if we just get rid of it we'll all be better. Personally I think our species is just kinda lovely. Technology enables our worst impulses and capitalism serves them but ultimately the issue is our values. People want to drive cars and live in houses and fly on vacation. I see no reason why we would stop wanting that just because our economic system is different. Across time and cultures humans have always desired material possessions and comfort. If we were a different species maybe we'd prefer to learn, experience or work less when we have accumulated excess wealth but mostly we just consume more. Perhaps a system of government which is not beholden to the wills of electorates which implies authoritarianism but even then you still rely on some support to stay in power so you would not, in fact, have unlimited power. In any case the people that end up on top could have any conceivable set of values.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:09
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cat botherer posted:Such nightmare scenarios are very much still on the table. While we aren't emitting like RCP 8.5, previously unknown feedbacks and tipping points more than make up the difference. The Earth's system is much more sensitive than thought a few years ago. That's also just talking about the warming, specifically. That is one problem among many. Eh, I don't know if I necessarily agree with that entirely but the way I look at it is that if you live in a relatively stable wealthly democracy things will probably be fine. And when I say fine, I mean fine in the in way when your significant other responds to you when you ask them how they are doing kind of way. Things actually aren't fine but you are still in a relationship. And do not live next to a body of water. Just don't. And many of the so called tipping points even if hit would unfold over large timescales over centuries. Hell, we could have even already hit them with our current levels of warming but that is no excuse to not reduce emissions.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:19
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I'm not sure I agree with this part. Capitalism is primarily about greed (IMHO), and it's totally possible to exploit that to achieve the goals and ends we need, even on a mass scale. If stuff like the CHIPS Act and the Inflation Reduction Act are able to cause a manufacturing and green energy boom in a matter of mere months (because corporation wants a piece of the pie) then similar things should be possible for say building a nation-wide high-speed rail network. The Brightline in Florida while not true high-speed rail is still freaking impressive. Hell, the recent developments in California with high-speed rail while extremely slow moving will become a reality around 2030.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:23
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I don’t think the changes necessary are impossible anymore. We just tripled US manufacturing construction in a single year. Large rapid changes are possible.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:27
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Those changes are still not at all enough to keep climate change under 1.5C.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:28
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Correct But it’s possible to make large changes rapidly. We just aren’t choosing to.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:29
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:The Brightline in Florida while not true high-speed rail is still freaking impressive. Hell, the recent developments in California with high-speed rail while extremely slow moving will become a reality around 2030. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz9y84oJv0E They'll run out of money very quickly at this rate which I'm afraid is a challenge for almost any rail project in the US since the destinations are all sprawling with poo poo public transport.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:35
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I've seen people getting on in Fort Lauderdale shoulder-to-shoulder. And why not? Florida traffic, especially after the pandemic with all the East Coaster coming down now that remote work is the norm is freaking awful. But I do know they had serious issue with revenue during the pandemic since ridership feel but as a service it's pretty damned good.
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Jun 9, 2023 21:43
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GABA ghoul posted:I'm not sure if we could get 2.0°C out of Eco-Stalin, but we would certainly get some cool rear end luxury dachas with golden toilets and private zoos and rivers that are 20% phenol by volume out of it. Maybe even one or two of those famous cannibal islands. After all, if there is one thing politicians are famous for it is to be incredibly uncorrupt once you remove all checks and balances/separation of powers and oversight through an independent press. Doesn’t seem like our “checks and balances” or the so-called independent press we have now is making much of a dent in corruption, anyways. Politicians mostly do what they want so long as it doesn’t threaten other politicians or their wealthy donors. Anyways, what do you think should be done to address the crisis?
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Jun 9, 2023 23:40
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Correct We can consume more which is what we're doing. The question is if we can build our way out of this or we will have to reduce consumption and how people would respond to that.
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Jun 9, 2023 23:43
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UKJeff posted:Doesn’t seem like our “checks and balances” or the so-called independent press we have now is making much of a dent in corruption, anyways. Politicians mostly do what they want so long as it doesn’t threaten other politicians or their wealthy donors. Anyways, what do you think should be done to address the crisis? That's a really odd thing to say, especially given today's news.
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Jun 9, 2023 23:47
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We've been riding capitalism straight into a climate Armageddon and we will still pretend it's the best ideology we've tried or can even imagine.
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Jun 10, 2023 00:16
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Adenoid Dan posted:We've been riding capitalism straight into a climate Armageddon and we will still pretend it's the best ideology we've tried or can even imagine. Fundamentally people will resist anything they'll perceive as getting in the way of more/better stuff for them. You have to either convince them or go all 
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Jun 10, 2023 00:49
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mobby_6kl posted:Well state communism or whatever you want to call it wasn't any better for the environment as we've seen. I think hypothetically it's much more likely that state communism would be better at combating climate change. The only way capitalism can do this is by providing enough government incentives to private industry and funding its own expansive programs, and imo it's kind of a wash because you'd essentially have to transform American capitalism into something that greatly resembles a big ol command economy to do that. The differences at that point would be semantic. What the Soviet Union did 70 years ago wrt industrialization does not seem like a particularly good comparison for what a state economy could hypothetically do to combat climate change in 2023.
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Jun 10, 2023 01:31
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mobby_6kl posted:He also built the Autobahn though which significantly contributes to the transportation emissions nowadays. Although they were controversial for the time, he did have some good ideas https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/driving-herr-hitler/article1036977/ posted:He "insisted . . . that the speed at which they drive should allow them to pull up in time under any circumstances." He put the onus on his drivers to drive defensively, for he did not want his driver to kill a child running onto the street. And a slow-moving car did not splash waving Germans or choke bicyclists with dust. That's all I can think of that wasn't terrible though mawarannahr fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Jun 10, 2023 |
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Jun 10, 2023 01:41
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GABA ghoul posted:I think it's pretty easy and self-evident Cows. Less of them.
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Jun 10, 2023 03:05
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VideoGameVet posted:Cows. I will do my part and eat as many of them as possible.
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Jun 10, 2023 03:29
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Shooting Blanks posted:I will do my part and eat as many of them as possible. ... and one of the largest sources of greenhouse gases never gets mentioned by most of the environmental groups. It's on a par with transport.
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Jun 10, 2023 06:12
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Crosby B. Alfred posted:I think another critical aspect is that emission have largely peaked or are pretty damned close to doing so over the next decade despite our current economic system of capitalism. Catastrophic nightmare scenarios of RCP 8.5 are no longer feasible. Granted, it's still really bad. I think economics and how it's looked at is a problem in itself. It's not a proper science. And it has faar to much influence on the world despite having many severe limitations. In fact someone wrote a book about the harm done to society by economists and here he is being interviewed by Mark Blyth, highly recommended. Economics needs to revamped as a science, right now it's more like a religion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr6_pKlNJGw I think the youtube channel unlearning economics is also a good watch, it's by a british economist.
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Jun 10, 2023 06:35
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VideoGameVet posted:... and one of the largest sources of greenhouse gases never gets mentioned by most of the environmental groups. It's on a par with transport. The FAO have found animal agriculture is responsible for between 14.5% (a 2013 study), 18% (a 2006 study), and 21% (a 2021 study) of total human emissions. If you aren't vegan you aren't even doing the basics to stop catastrophic climate change... eating dead animals is like on par with voting for Republicans.
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Jun 10, 2023 09:49
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At least beef and pork, the water usage and emissions from those 2 are catastrophic and also they're way too smart to be food
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Jun 10, 2023 11:22
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please continue to take individual actions to attempt to mitigate the emissions of
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Jun 10, 2023 11:47
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redleader posted:please continue to take individual actions to attempt to mitigate the emissions of What if I told you those 8 billion people were all capable of taking individual actions
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Jun 10, 2023 11:58
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redleader posted:please continue to take individual actions to attempt to mitigate the emissions of Do you vote?
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Jun 10, 2023 12:02
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Failed Imagineer posted:At least beef and pork, the water usage and emissions from those 2 are catastrophic and also they're way too smart to be food Jesus China is in trouble then. Out here those are in every meal.
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Jun 10, 2023 12:13
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Beefeater1980 posted:Jesus China is in trouble then. Out here those are in every meal. Yes, this is well understood to be a huge problem
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Jun 10, 2023 12:16
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Failed Imagineer posted:What if I told you those 8 billion people were all capable of taking individual actions like converting from rice or bread and excessive variety of fruit and vege to cassava? If you are worried about land use, water and really want to save GHG's. then cassava, nuts (for protein) and supplements are king! The residue of casava is commercially used for biofuel production as well so each person you convince to stop eating rice and making every meal casava and supplement is another liter of fuel for a ship or plane!
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Jun 10, 2023 12:20
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