(Thread IKs:
fatherboxx)
|
WarpedLichen posted:New US aid package, it's all USAI. Interesting, I know some helicopters share a name with our newest and shittiest IFV, the Puma, but the US also having a system with that name, which they're now sharing with Ukraine, will probably be very confusing if our journalists forget to specify which Puma they're talking about.  Especially since the constant clown show that is the German Puma is quite often in our (German) news recently
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 17:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 15:10 |
|
|
Libluini posted:Interesting, I know some helicopters share a name with our newest and shittiest IFV, the Puma, but the US also having a system with that name, which they're now sharing with Ukraine, will probably be very confusing if our journalists forget to specify which Puma they're talking about. Puma is also the clothes company started by Adolf Dassler's (Adidas) SS volunteer brother Rudolf! In Finnish it's also the slang term for, well, cougar or an older woman that seeks younger men for sex. Which makes it always sound funny when someone is talking about Super Pumas that our border guard has.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
The Puma (IFV) is actually good, actually. Just remember that the seat heating isn't automatic before complaining to the manufacturer. It's a switch, just flip it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 18:31
|
|
|
In the US we use "cougar" for that. Isn't the Puma basically the older version of the Lynx, the latter of which is currently being evaluated separately by Australia and the US?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 18:33
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:In the US we use "cougar" for that. I feel like you have to specify which Puma you're talking about first. The one currently getting slowly introduced in Germany is supposed to eventually replace the Marder IFV. Edit: I looked up the Lynx, since I never heard about the thing before. Turns out it's a German-built IFV that's not actually used by the Bundeswehr. No relation to the new Puma. Huh. You never stop learning.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 19:15
|
|
|
some stories from the day i found personally interestingquote:Sweden will allow Nato to base troops on its territory even before it formally joins the defence alliance, the prime minister and defence minister said on Friday. quote:Ukraine’s gross domestic product (GDP) fell by 10.5% in the first quarter of the year compared with the same period a year ago, the economy ministry said on Friday. the ukrainian government is putting an upbeat spin on it, but hard to see it as anything but another reminder of the compounding long term damage this war is causing with every passing day. no matter how the chips fall, i really hope there is a concerted push for redevelopment aid quote:A grainy black-and-white gunsight video Russia released this week to bolster a claim its military blew up some of Ukraine’s most fearsome tanks actually documented the destruction of a tractor, according to a visual analysis by the Associated Press. anecdotes are in no way indicative of the situation on the ground, but they can be funny quote:The New York Times is reporting that a senior Biden administration official has said that US spy satellites detected an explosion at the Kakhovka dam just before it collapsed. more evidence accumulates that the destruction of the dam was intentional, and done by someone who controlled the interior spaces of the dam quote:The White House said on Friday that Russia appeared to be deepening its cooperation with Iran in “full-scale defence partnership” and had received hundreds of one-way attack drones that it is using to strike Ukraine. i imagine israel's defense community aren't particularly happy with the thought of even more technology transfer between russia and iran quote:Hungary said on Friday it had received a group of Ukrainian prisoners of war from Russia, a release that Ukraine welcomed while expressing concern that it had not been informed. this reads like some dubious hungarian ultra-nationalism. "transcarpathia"? if orban starts refering to ruthenia, i'm going to be very suspicious
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 19:23
|
|
|
Libluini posted:I feel like you have to specify which Puma you're talking about first. The one currently getting slowly introduced in Germany is supposed to eventually replace the Marder IFV. These things also get ridiculous because there's only so many different cats and Germany has been naming AFV's after them since WW2. Puma was already a heavy scout car back then, Lynx (Luchs) was an uparmoured Pz II. There was also a design for a recon tank called Leopard. Well, this is mostly a problem for players of War Thunder I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 19:38
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:anecdotes are in no way indicative of the situation on the ground, but they can be funny Thanks for these, GoJM! I saw that Ka-52 video yesterday and it's definitely something. I'm sure if I was somehow an attack helicopter pilot/gunner in a hot conflict where I could be shot down any second, my brain too wouldn't work straight and I would fire missiles at anything that even remotely resembled a legit target so I could return home. But someone had to watch and edit and publish those videos afterwards in a safe office environment, and didn't notice anything off...
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 19:46
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:These things also get ridiculous because there's only so many different cats and Germany has been naming AFV's after them since WW2. Puma was already a heavy scout car back then, Lynx (Luchs) was an uparmoured Pz II. There was also a design for a recon tank called Leopard. Well, this is mostly a problem for players of War Thunder I guess. Germans: beautiful engineering, terrible taxonomy. (I'm sure there's some way to combine that into a single word in German...)
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 19:47
|
|
|
Ynglaur posted:Germans: beautiful engineering, terrible taxonomy. (I'm sure there's some way to combine that into a single word in German...) Schönheitstechnikstaxonomieschrecklichkeit? (I am not a native German speaker...)
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:The lovely thing about Ukraine losing things like Leopards and Bradley's is I don't think they really have that many. Like Russia has been losing tanks left and right but they had thousands to start off with. I think Ukraine had like 100ish Leopards? And probably isn't going to be getting many more. So any losses are really going to hurt. If they take the position a lot of those will be towed back and refit with new tracks. So they're really only losses if Russia pushes them back or at least hold the position long enough to get demolition crews or sustained artillery fire onto them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:23
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Thanks for these, GoJM! I saw that Ka-52 video yesterday and it's definitely something. I'm sure if I was somehow an attack helicopter pilot/gunner in a hot conflict where I could be shot down any second, my brain too wouldn't work straight and I would fire missiles at anything that even remotely resembled a legit target so I could return home. yeah, combat aviators have had understandable problems determining if and what they destroyed since the inception of the role, but triumphantly publishing the guncam footage is i guess indicative of the "flood the field" mentality of modern russian propaganda for me the funniest part is the ap fact checker having to come up with fancier language for "uh, that's a tractor"
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:26
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:
Yeah this story about Hungary is baffling and somewhat concerning.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:47
|
|
|
saratoga posted:If they take the position a lot of those will be towed back and refit with new tracks. So they're really only losses if Russia pushes them back or at least hold the position long enough to get demolition crews or sustained artillery fire onto them. Well, they're losses for this offensive. We don't know how damaged they are but modern tanks just take more to repair than hosing off the blood and patch welding the hole. Maybe if it's just a thrown track, but anything more takes precious time to fix. OTOH modern western tanks don't just blow up in pieces, crew can walk out of many situations where a T-72 crew would have been instantly cremated and ashes scattered into surrounding fields. Having enough tanks is one thing, having tank crews and in particular commanders who have been in battle before is another. It's like if you had just gotten your driver's license and headed off to the motorway, except somehow you took the wrong lane and are driving against traffic. If you can't dodge the oncoming trucks your car will get wrecked, but if your car has good airbags and crumble zones then maybe you will survive with minor injuries and you will be able to try again a week later, and this time you will dodge more trucks before you crash.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:57
|
|
|
Sebastian Flyte posted:Schönheitstechnikstaxonomieschrecklichkeit? The way you said it, it sounds like "beauty technique taxonomy awfulness". I might suggest: "schöntechnische Nomenklaturhässlichkeit".
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 20:59
|
|
|
Pope Hilarius II posted:The way you said it, it sounds like "beauty technique taxonomy awfulness". The gently caress did you just say about my hovercraft
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:03
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Well, they're losses for this offensive. We don't know how damaged they are but modern tanks just take more to repair than hosing off the blood and patch welding the hole. Maybe if it's just a thrown track, but anything more takes precious time to fix. Lot of the losses are mines which will blow off a track but probably aren't going to make a hole that needs patching. That's why you see all those videos of the Ukrainians dropping grenades into t72 tanks with broken tracks. The mine isn't strong enough to punch through the armor on even older tanks, it just rips up the track enough that the vehicle is immobile. Stuff hit with larger weapons is a different story.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
saratoga posted:Lot of the losses are mines which will blow off a track but probably aren't going to make a hole that needs patching. That's why you see all those videos of the Ukrainians dropping grenades into t72 tanks with broken tracks. The mine isn't strong enough to punch through the armor on even older tanks, it just rips up the track enough that the vehicle is immobile. That's the thing, though. You leave a tank laying around where drones can see it, it will get hammered by artillery. Plus mines can and will damage more than just the track - wheels, suspension, drive chain etc. Mines can also pierce the bottom plate of the hull (tilt rod and magnetic fuses). They can even be stacked to make sure that any fool that drives over it will flip. There's a lot of variables at play and it takes time to see how badly damaged the vehicle is and what can be done. A Bradley that hits an anti-tank mine is pretty much a lost cause anyway, but it's always worthwhile to evacuate a vehicle if it hasn't burned. There probably are reusable components.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:36
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:That's the thing, though. You leave a tank laying around where drones can see it, it will get hammered by artillery. https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1667188759522164737?cxt=HHwWgoC-jf_VhaMuAAAA Allegedly one such tank recovered and retracked.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:That's the thing, though. You leave a tank laying around where drones can see it, it will get hammered by artillery. Yes, and...sometimes you just need to re-attach the track. Effects are highly variable, though anecdotally M1s tend to have minor damage most of the time from mine attacks.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:48
|
|
|
Yeah, the fact that Russia has drone footage of these vehicles and hasn't hit them with artillery likely means that they're not currently able to do it. It makes sense, Ukraine are unlikely to send a column into an area until the artillery has been dealt with. Also, from the footage, it appears that this group of vehicles is parallel to another mine clearance track, this one free of wreckage implying a successful advance. These attacks don't happen in single file, and it wasn't an attack involving just 6 vehicles. Although the troops were forced to dismount here, there's no reason to think the assault ended here, or that it was unsuccessful due to this incident. https://twitter.com/secretsqrl123/status/1667222352369729564 Also note how in the above image (taken from the footage of one of the bradleys being destroyed by a cookoff) there are more vehicles there than in the higher quality drone images released today, implying that some of them were recovered at some point later. If the Russians successfully destroyed these vehicles, we should see footage of it soon - this happened a few days ago and footage of it came out almost immediately. If the territory was captured by Ukraine and Russian artillery pushed out of range, we won't see anything more. Chalks fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 21:58
|
|
|
 Looks like "the spot" may have been captured by Russians. Skepticism is merited of course. Theres vid of guy walking around area too with the vehicles in background.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
Nenonen posted:Thanks for these, GoJM! I saw that Ka-52 video yesterday and it's definitely something. I'm sure if I was somehow an attack helicopter pilot/gunner in a hot conflict where I could be shot down any second, my brain too wouldn't work straight and I would fire missiles at anything that even remotely resembled a legit target so I could return home. Speaking of helicopter pilots, BBC Russia has an interview with a pilot who escaped from Russia some time after mobilization. He even touches target selection - and why Russian MOD claimed casualties are inflated (beyond just making poo poo up). Unsurprisingly, it is bounties https://www.bbc.com/russian/features-65812907 quote:Mishov says that many people in the military do not understand what is going on and why this war is necessary: "They would not mind making peace, so that all this would be over quickly. But the lieutenant does not expect any meaningful sabotage from his former colleagues either. He says that in conditions of war they rather come up with new schemes in order to earn money and deceive their superiors. For example, last November the Defense Ministry promised to pay 300 thousand rubles for each destroyed airplane, 200 thousand rubles for a helicopter, 100 thousand rubles for a tank, and 50 thousand rubles for light armored vehicles. More interesting quotes quote:In late October, when his discharge was canceled and Mishov had to return to his unit, Ukrainian saboteurs destroyed two Ka-52 helicopters at the Veretje airfield: "I had just returned to my unit, it happened at night. In general, everyone was raised on alert. It turned out that two helicopters were completely burnt out and one Mi-28 was still worth repairing. The command first began to check all the servicemen, believing that someone had helped the saboteurs, but the investigators could not find anything. A few days later, explosives were found in the cockpit of another helicopter, which for some reason did not explode. quote:During the war the regiment in which Mishov served lost nearly 20% of its helicopters. Previously there were "40-50" helicopters in the regiment, but over the past year two were burned by saboteurs and another six or seven were shot down at the front: "Losses among pilots are high. If you compare it with, let us say, Afghanistan, I know that 333 helicopters were lost there. And we have 10 years of Afghan war in a year.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
fatherboxx posted:Speaking of helicopter pilots, BBC Russia has an interview with a pilot who escaped from Russia some time after mobilization. He even touches target selection - and why Russian MOD claimed casualties are inflated (beyond just making poo poo up). Unsurprisingly, it is bounties Bounties for kills? Clearly senior Russian leaders never played Eve Online.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:I honestly don't know how tanks survive at all on a modern battlefield with all the anti tank weapons available to the defender. Like it seems incredibly easy to hide something like a Fagot missile launcher in a bush and just plink tanks all day from long distance. If the defender has a lot of these weapons (and I'm sure the Russians do) how does an armored assault ever manage to break through? In the opening days of the Yom Kippur war, Israeli armor was totally decimated on the Sinai front by AT3 Sagger missiles. They eventually went on to win the war so I guess they figured out how to get around it though. I feel like decades of unconventional warfare and bad Hollywood narratives has lead to people forgetting that peer wars can be incredibly bloody and still be considered successful. If the enemy is strong enough, sometimes the only thing you can do is to identify its weakest point (which may not be all that weak, but it's weaker than anything else) and then hammer it as hard as you can and hope that the weak point gives way before the hammer does.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:15
|
|
|
According to these tweets, the first Bradleys hit a mine field and the other ones that came after kept driving to the same spot and hitting mines. https://twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1667190618248847360?s=20
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:17
|
|
|
Mr. Apollo posted:According to these tweets, the first Bradleys hit a mine field and the other ones that came after kept driving to the same spot and hitting mines. The full footage from which this was cropped shows a more complicated story than that. The bradleys weren't in the front, they were travelling behind mine clearing vehicles. In the footage, there is the plow of a mine clearing vehicle quite far in front of them, with tracks leading up to and away from it, as well as tracks of another mine clearance vehicle leading beyond showing that this is not the first advance in this direction. There is a disabled mine clearing vehicle behind them. Clearly it didn't go to plan, but it isn't accurate to portray this as a bradley being driven over a minefield with no regard to the situation. Once the mine clearance vehicle had to retreat, multiple of the trailing vehicles hit mines presumably while attempting to retreat or protect other vehicles. The footage begins with what appear to be artillery strikes on a location, followed by a large vehicle explosion. It then cuts to this scene at about the 1:00 mark, but it does not appear to be the site of those artillery strikes or the explosion. There's further drone footage of other abandoned and destroyed vehicles, presumably from this same operation, including a second abandoned leopard, but there's a lot of cutting and its difficult to follow exactly what is going on. https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1667179959155146752 Chalks fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:28
|
|
|
y'all saying these are tractors? https://t.me/Slavyangrad/49966
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:32
|
|
|
dumby posted:y'all saying these are tractors? No
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:34
|
|
|
dumby posted:y'all saying these are tractors? Good lord their optics are trash, no wonder they can't tell a tractor from a tank. This looks to be a different location from what was shown in the drone footage (much flatter and no hedgerows) but does seem to be a strike against a tank (????). Elsewhere on the front, possibly more recent given that I've not seen this on twitter yet?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:42
|
|
|
Chalks posted:Good lord their optics are trash, no wonder they can't tell a tractor from a tank. Its the same group as shown a bunch today. Its actually interesting comparing the image there and missile flight time vs the tractor vid. Tractor was closer presumably but quality is worse, vs there where its further away yet better. Ambient atmospheric conditions presumably are a big factor illustrated in comparing and how they effect thermal imaging.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:46
|
|
|
Chalks posted:Good lord their optics are trash, no wonder they can't tell a tractor from a tank. Got it from this guy: https://twitter.com/imetatronink Obvs he's pro Russia (more anti-US), but one of the more neutral observers I've found. So much of the infosphere on this is just straight propaganda from both sides.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:47
|
|
|
dumby posted:Got it from this guy: https://twitter.com/imetatronink Obvs he's pro Russia (more anti-US), but one of the more neutral observers I've found. So much of the infosphere on this is just straight propaganda from both sides. "The Ukrainians are apparently determined to continue feeding their men and NATO's armor into this new Zaporozhye meat-grinder. And, as widely predicted by many, neither the German Leopard 2A6 nor the American M2 Bradleys are a match for Russian firepower. This is a massacre." Buddy, if this is what a neutral viewer looks like.......
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:50
|
|
|
dumby posted:Got it from this guy: https://twitter.com/imetatronink Obvs he's pro Russia (more anti-US), but one of the more neutral observers I've found. So much of the infosphere on this is just straight propaganda from both sides. Holy poo poo, that guy is an idiot.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:52
|
|
|
Dandywalken posted:Its the same group as shown a bunch today. I'm having trouble working out what's going on in the footage, but I see how it could potentially be the same grouping (multiple vehicles across a mine plow track) However, the target of this strike is some distance behind that cluster of vehicles, but no such vehicle is present in the footage. Seems strange they wouldn't pan to it, which might mean this is a miss? The missile position at the point of detonation does seem off. I guess this could explain why things started to go wrong for the column though. One of their mine plows gets taken out by the helicopter, bradleys have to evade and some hit mines while trying to manoeuvre? Looking forward to seeing some more knowledgeable analysis of this footage. Chalks fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jun 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:55
|
|
|
Ask him to look up the Battle of El Alamein. Attacking into prepared defenses sucks, even if it works.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:56
|
|
|
dumby posted:Got it from this guy: https://twitter.com/imetatronink Obvs he's pro Russia (more anti-US), but one of the more neutral observers I've found. So much of the infosphere on this is just straight propaganda from both sides. Pro username / post combo
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
dumby posted:y'all saying these are tractors? would it make you feel better if i said yes?
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 23:04
|
|
|
Dandywalken posted:"The Ukrainians are apparently determined to continue feeding their men and NATO's armor into this new Zaporozhye meat-grinder. And, as widely predicted by many, neither the German Leopard 2A6 nor the American M2 Bradleys are a match for Russian firepower. This is a massacre." The Russians claim it's a meat grinder, but the only footage we've got is of this one incident in which apparently all the troops were able to dismount and escape. Really if this is all there is then holy crap Ukraine are doing well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 23:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 15:10 |
|
|
Yeah, it's weird that the losses were on the Tokmak axis which is also where Ukraine has stated to be making gains. https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1667267525459992584?cxt=HHwWkICzieO-qaMuAAAA So either cope on the Ukrainian side or not as much as a setback as advertised.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2023 23:20
|
|
