Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Climate Change: There are no jobs on a dead planet

GABA ghoul: Oct 29, 2011

Not being an rear end in a top hat is already reason enough to try to avoid eating industrially farmed beef. Same as not leaving behind your garbage after a picnic or kicking wildlife. There may or may not be other reasons to not do all that, but the rear end in a top hat part should be enough already for everyone who is not a sociopath.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 13:00

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 11:23

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

Electric Wrigglies posted:

like converting from rice or bread and excessive variety of fruit and vege to cassava? If you are worried about land use, water and really want to save GHG's. then cassava, nuts (for protein) and supplements are king!

The residue of casava is commercially used for biofuel production as well so each person you convince to stop eating rice and making every meal casava and supplement is another liter of fuel for a ship or plane!

I thought cassava required more water/calorie than rice?

Either way, I'm gonna speculate that it would be a lot more impactful to encourage reduced meat consumption than to try this out, but by all means encourage people to explore these other options.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 13:07

Electric Wrigglies: Feb 6, 2015

Failed Imagineer posted:

I thought cassava required more water/calorie than rice?

Either way, I'm gonna speculate that it would be a lot more impactful to encourage reduced meat consumption than to try this out, but by all means encourage people to explore these other options.

I'm on board with reduced meat consumption. While I think the "you are a psychopath if you eat beef" is just morally superior self-righteousness born again wank, the benefits of reducing meat intake are personal (health and wealth wise) as well as for the environment for a large number of meat eaters.

but I wasn't replying to the eat less cows post, I was responding to the "If you aren't vegan you aren't even doing the basics to stop catastrophic climate change.." line of argument.

You can make beef GHG neutral these days (ala Denmark and their closely controlled production) or very much reduced GHG (via seaweed extract free range as opposed to grain fed beef). More expensive than free range marginal-land cows but probably just as tasty; if not more so, than grain fed US beef. My point is the personal choice/belief that works for me so it is a straight forward answer for everyone else in the world line of thinking that goes with the born-again vegans is not constructive.

I like cassava. Either as atticki with spicy as gently caress chili and sauce aubergine in West Africa or as sweet casava cake in SE Asia. I like it better than white rice. So for me, it seems pretty straight forward that we can just make everyone do what I do if making my personal taste mandatory for the rest of the world (or implying that other people are monsters/other pejorative comment) in the name of an important collective goal is such a good idea.

E) also, casava is very drought resistant and will grow/is grown where you can't grow rice for lack of water.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 15:53

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

Enjoy posted:

If you aren't vegan you aren't even doing the basics to stop catastrophic climate change... eating dead animals is like on par with voting for Republicans.

It's very funny that you compared it to voting for Republicans, because the whole "if you care so much about climate change why are you still doing X yourself?" is an argument commonly fielded by them in "gotcha" attempts. It's like when they say people who call for increased tax rates should start by voluntarily paying more taxes than they owe. It's an idiotic argument.

Aside from that, putting the burden of action on individuals is a strategy that has been widely used by corporations in order to take attention away from their own practices. We've found out, for example, that reduce-reuse-recycle programs have allowed companies to maintain their own profit margins and their impacts in terms of e.g. reducing pollution have been minuscule.

Look, here's the reality: in terms of climate change, the time for initiating grassroots movements, such as by guilting people into taking individual action or changing their behaviors, is long past. We need to address these problems at the source. Want to reduce society's overall their beef consumption? Start taxing it. Want to reduce plastic usage? Increase regulatory hurdles for production so that downstream manufacturers pass those costs to consumers, which would result in increased prices and decreased consumption. These levers, while not perfect, do exist and are proven to work very well, e.g. "sin taxes" have been enormously useful for reducing cigarette usage. Incentives, similarly, can be enormously effective at encouraging better behaviors at mass scale - which is what we need at this point.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 16:08

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

Thorn Wishes Talon posted:

It's very funny that you compared it to voting for Republicans, because the whole "if you care so much about climate change why are you still doing X yourself?" is an argument commonly fielded by them in "gotcha" attempts. It's like when they say people who call for increased tax rates should start by voluntarily paying more taxes than they owe. It's an idiotic argument.

Aside from that, putting the burden of action on individuals is a strategy that has been widely used by corporations in order to take attention away from their own practices. We've found out, for example, that reduce-reuse-recycle programs have allowed companies to maintain their own profit margins and their impacts in terms of e.g. reducing pollution have been minuscule.

Look, here's the reality: in terms of climate change, the time for initiating grassroots movements, such as by guilting people into taking individual action or changing their behaviors, is long past. We need to address these problems at the source. Want to reduce society's overall their beef consumption? Start taxing it. Want to reduce plastic usage? Increase regulatory hurdles for production so that downstream manufacturers pass those costs to consumers, which would result in increased prices and decreased consumption. These levers, while not perfect, do exist and are proven to work very well, e.g. "sin taxes" have been enormously useful for reducing cigarette usage. Incentives, similarly, can be enormously effective at encouraging better behaviors at mass scale - which is what we need at this point.

Are you vegan?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jun 10, 2023 16:49

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

It's better to eat less meat. It's better to use less plastic. The idea that you aren't serious about changing things if you're not vegan, especially if you're poor working class, is loving ridiculous. That same line of thought leads to living in a cave in the woods, completely detached from society. Yeah, I think that's ideologically correct, but it's absurdly difficult and it doesn't solve our problems. Should I feel guilty for buying a sandwich or plastic bottled beverage when I spend 10+ hours a day tending to the properties of people who own multiple homes and vehicles across the country or planet? No more guilty than I feel for being an American, or a modern human on any level.

Be vegan if it helps you sleep at night, good on ya. But the idea that "are you a vegan though?" is leveraged as some sort of dunk is laughable.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 17:27

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

BRJurgis posted:

It's better to eat less meat. It's better to use less plastic. The idea that you aren't serious about changing things if you're not vegan, especially if you're poor working class, is loving ridiculous. That same line of thought leads to living in a cave in the woods, completely detached from society. Yeah, I think that's ideologically correct, but it's absurdly difficult and it doesn't solve our problems. Should I feel guilty for buying a sandwich or plastic bottled beverage when I spend 10+ hours a day tending to the properties of people who own multiple homes and vehicles across the country or planet? No more guilty than I feel for being an American, or a modern human on any level.

Be vegan if it helps you sleep at night, good on ya. But the idea that "are you a vegan though?" is leveraged as some sort of dunk is laughable.

It's not absurdly difficult.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 17:36

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

The key to solve climate change is to endlessly nag people and focus on individual responsibility, and hope that billions of people spontaneously change their behaviors, irrespective of any material conditions or incentives they find themselves in. Companies such as BP are at the forefront of this fight, with innovative ideas such as getting people to calculate their "carbon footprint."

This also works great for reducing crime rates! We just need to get people to understand that murder is bad, and then we won't have murders.

fake edit: Isn't there already a vegan thread specifically for this kind of tedium?

cat botherer fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jun 10, 2023

# ? Jun 10, 2023 17:41

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

cat botherer posted:

The key to solve climate change is to endlessly nag people and focus on individual responsibility, and hope that billions of people spontaneously change their behaviors, irrespective of any material conditions or incentives they find themselves in. Companies such as BP are at the forefront of this fight, with innovative ideas such as getting people to calculate their "carbon footprint."

This also works great for reducing crime rates! We just need to get people to understand that murder is bad, and then we won't have murders.

fake edit: Isn't there already a vegan thread specifically for this kind of tedium?

Sorry I forgot, the genuinely leftist position is to be completely helpless in the face of ~material conditions~ and do nothing to help the world.

I assume you don't vote or participate in unions, either, since those require you to do something on an individual level.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 17:54

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

This the kind of discourse you only really see online, because if you acted like this in person people would AT BEST laugh and walk away.

Gonna go outside to the store and deli across the street, and scream at people for being consumers. I'll show them the error of their ways, get on my level.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 17:58

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Enjoy posted:

Sorry I forgot, the genuinely leftist position is to be completely helpless in the face of ~material conditions~ and do nothing to help the world.

I assume you don't vote or participate in unions, either, since those require you to do something on an individual level.

You're creating a false dilemma, and an unusually demented one at that. It is good when people do positive action on an individual level, but it's absolutely stupid to think that will solve the problems we're facing - people vary, none are without sin, etc. There are also ~material conditions~ that can hamper individual action. Believe it or not, people's behavior can actually be affected by the physical and social environment the find themselves in! Crazy, huh?

Here's an example: Personal vehicles are bad, and their ubiquity is incompatible with solving the biosphere collapse. However, our society is built around them, making them a necessity for most people. Thus, I have a car, even though I'd rather not have one. This is an example of a particular ~material condition~ that influences my behavior.

e: typo

cat botherer fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jun 10, 2023

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:14

Professor Beetus: Apr 12, 2007; They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus

Enjoy posted:

Sorry I forgot, the genuinely leftist position is to be completely helpless in the face of ~material conditions~ and do nothing to help the world.

I assume you don't vote or participate in unions, either, since those require you to do something on an individual level.

You are not doing anything to help the world by making the personal choice to be vegan. You are, however, clearly deriving a lot of moral satisfaction from it, so good for you!

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:20

World Famous W: May 25, 2007; BAAAAAAAAAAAA

im going to continue to eat the meat i get from the food bank that would be going into a dumpster or feeding dogs otherwise

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:23

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

If everybody switching to EVs is supposed to help, then everybody giving up animal products definitely will, but ultimately it's down to stopping pulling hydrocarbons out of the ground. Do what and we're good, don't do that and we're hosed, simple as. People recognize all this on some level, it's a big part of why people get completely psychotic about vegans and cyclists.

All online discourse now is Twitter brained, it's extremely depressing.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:24

Owling Howl: Jul 17, 2019

cat botherer posted:

The key to solve climate change is to endlessly nag people and focus on individual responsibility, and hope that billions of people spontaneously change their behaviors, irrespective of any material conditions or incentives they find themselves in. Companies such as BP are at the forefront of this fight, with innovative ideas such as getting people to calculate their "carbon footprint."

This also works great for reducing crime rates! We just need to get people to understand that murder is bad, and then we won't have murders.

fake edit: Isn't there already a vegan thread specifically for this kind of tedium?

Well if people don't think those behaviors are harmful then they won't support measures that will restrict them. If people are admired and idolized for living in giant mansions, driving hypercars and flying on weekend retreats you're going to be fighting a very uphill battle trying to tax or ban it.

Sweeping dramatic societal changes needs a popular foundation. We can't just quietly smile and nod when people do these things and then turn around and say we need to ban cars or we'll probably all die. If we want to make changes in society then we need to first have the conversations that enable them.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:33

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

cat botherer posted:

You're creating a false dilemma, and an unusually demented one at that. It is good when people do positive action on an individual level, but it's absolutely stupid to think that will solve the problems we're facing - people vary, none are without sin, etc. There are also ~material conditions~ that can hamper individual action. Believe it or not, people's behavior can actually be affected by the physical and social environment the find themselves in! Crazy, huh?

Here's an example: Personal vehicles are bad, and their ubiquity is incompatible with solving the biosphere collapse. However, our society is built around them, making them a necessity for most people. Thus, I have a car, even though I'd rather not have one. This is an example of a particular ~material condition~ that influences my behavior.

e: typo

Animal agriculture is not a necessity for most people, least of all the people in this thread

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:35

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Owling Howl posted:

Well if people don't think those behaviors are harmful then they won't support measures that will restrict them. If people are admired and idolized for living in giant mansions, driving hypercars and flying on weekend retreats you're going to be fighting a very uphill battle trying to tax or ban it.

Sweeping dramatic societal changes needs a popular foundation. We can't just quietly smile and nod when people do these things and then turn around and say we need to ban cars or we'll probably all die. If we want to make changes in society then we need to first have the conversations that enable them.

Yeah there's a lot of nuance here, but moralizing at people won't ever do anything - especially when there's all sorts socioeconomic forces inducing people to consume the way they do. As you say, a popular foundation for sweeping changes is completely necessary, which is why I think effective action will only be taken when the economic and environmental situation becomes intolerable for the bulk of the population. So basically a popular revolution.

Enjoy posted:

Animal agriculture is not a necessity for most people, least of all the people in this thread

We can fix the climate situation if we get the people ITT to stop eating meat. FWIW, I'm actually a vegan myself, however I don't think this makes me Jesus.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:40

Enjoy: Apr 18, 2009

I'm glad you're vegan

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:42

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

At any rate, most people will become effectively vegan in another decade or two as agricultural output decreases, making meat expensive and out of reach.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:44

Discendo Vox: Mar 21, 2013; This does not make sense when, again, aggregate indicia also indicate improvements. The belief that things are worse is false. It remains false.

Epic High Five posted:

If everybody switching to EVs is supposed to help, then everybody giving up animal products definitely will, but ultimately it's down to stopping pulling hydrocarbons out of the ground. Do what and we're good, don't do that and we're hosed, simple as. People recognize all this on some level, it's a big part of why people get completely psychotic about vegans and cyclists.

All online discourse now is Twitter brained, it's extremely depressing.

Do you not have a star next to your name? Are you not a moderator? You're not responsible for all online discourse, but you sure as poo poo are responsible for the state of this discussion. If you recognize people are being "completely psychotic", how about you do something about it so that the people who aren't "completely psychotic" can have a discussion remotely grounded in reality!

What loving message do you thing it sends to people when the moderator acknowledges that they are running an "extremely depressing" discussion space and aren't doing anything about it?

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:47

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

Discendo Vox posted:

Do you not have a star next to your name? Are you not a moderator? You're not responsible for all online discourse, but you sure as poo poo are responsible for the state of this discussion. If you recognize people are being "completely psychotic", how about you do something about it so that the people who aren't "completely psychotic" can have a discussion remotely grounded in reality!

What loving message do you thing it sends to people when the moderator acknowledges that they are running an "extremely depressing" discussion space and aren't doing anything about it?

No one ITT has been "completely psychotic" at vegans or cyclists. I'm actually both of those things, I should know. Thank you for your valuable contribution to this discussion, though!

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:54

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

Discendo Vox posted:

Do you not have a star next to your name? Are you not a moderator? You're not responsible for all online discourse, but you sure as poo poo are responsible for the state of this discussion. If you recognize people are being "completely psychotic", how about you do something about it so that the people who aren't "completely psychotic" can have a discussion remotely grounded in reality!

People generally, not here. SA has plenty of spaces where carbrain and similar doesn't dominate, it's a telling sign that is one of the reasons I'm still around. I bemoan that SA is becoming more Twitter brained, not has become completely consumed by it like so much else has.

I don't consider the discussion of the merits of individual action to be irrelevant to the topic at hand. I'd personally prefer people duke it out here and get their ideological position in a coherent order before bringing it into the general population because it's absolutely going to be something people will try to stonewall them with. I'd also really prefer not to come back to a devolution into personal attacks after I finish making my traditional weekend huge pot of beans before co-op with my buddies which is why I made sure a blue star weighed in even if it was just grumbling, but this has been a multi-day thing and it's been fine the whole time.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 18:55

Epic High Five: Jun 5, 2004

One of the defining features of modern SA to me is that it's become one of (or the only, in the case of firearms) the only places on the internet you can discuss some things without everything being completely drowned out by lunatics and bots with the implicit or explicit support of whoever is running the platform in question. Climate change is absolutely going to become one of those things once the developed world starts feeling the squeeze in a way that spending can't paper over. I became a mod to preserve that however I can back when I had the time and energy to do so, and also so nobody can block me to avoid my wistful philosophizing when I get in the mood. Sorry for derailing. Wish me luck with getting good results out of these 2+ year old pintos.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 19:09

Professor Beetus: Apr 12, 2007; They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus

Enjoy posted:

Animal agriculture is not a necessity for most people, least of all the people in this thread

Okay well, I guess they'll just stop if we all stop eating meat.

Again, you aren't doing anything to fight climate change by not eating meat, but you are certainly doing something to reinforce stereotypes about vegans. The kind of societal change needed to reduce animal agriculture by the amounts necessary will not come from the bottom up, it needs to come from the top down. If you think it's possible that enough people will stop eating meat voluntarily in enough numbers to make a dent in climate change, I have a number of bridges at very reasonable prices.

e: also I used to work at an org dedicated to preventing animal cruelty and we did a lot of vegan awareness stuff. It is morally correct to make the decision to not eat meat. But as an individual choice it's pretty far removed from climate change.

Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jun 10, 2023

# ? Jun 10, 2023 20:54

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

Enjoy posted:

The FAO have found animal agriculture is responsible for between 14.5% (a 2013 study), 18% (a 2006 study), and 21% (a 2021 study) of total human emissions.

If you aren't vegan you aren't even doing the basics to stop catastrophic climate change... eating dead animals is like on par with voting for Republicans.

I�m with you on this. I was kinda forced into a plant based diet because I had seriously bad cholesterol numbers in the era before Statins. It probably has a greater impact than my cycling and EV

# ? Jun 10, 2023 20:59

UKJeff: May 17, 2023; by vyelkin

None of us are politicians or legislators (presumably) so individual action is gonna basically be all we can do. Sure the positive effect of one person abstaining from meat or not littering or driving less or not dumping used motor oil in the river, etc is essentially insignificant but on the other hand why continue to do that stuff if you know it�s wrong � it�s not judgemental, I just don�t understand why people wouldn�t try to live in alignment with their principles (assuming they have the ability & means to do so)

# ? Jun 10, 2023 21:33

BRJurgis: Aug 15, 2007; Well I hear the thunder roll, I feel the cold winds blowing...
But you won't find me there, 'cause I won't go back again...
While you're on smoky roads, I'll be out in the sun...
Where the trees still grow, where they count by one...

I dont personally believe eating meat is wrong in and of itself, the way we do it as a society/economy is the problem. But every dollar I make and spend props this up, and I want to eat delicious meat with its ready protein. It would absolutely be better if I didn't, or strictly bought from local sustainable humane sources (if I could consistently afford that wrt money and time). But I spend most of the day doing physical labor, and have limited time and resources. If you want to judge me or otherwise say I'm not strong enough to live my ideals, fine. In a way you're right. But I've already lost that fight, unless I live in the woods disconnected from society entirely. And that would have just as negligible an effect as me not eating meat, and both are an unrealistic option for large amounts of people.

I refuse to buy from Amazon. I dislike materialism, consumerism, and large companies like (and especially) Amazon. When my coworker buys work clothes or stuff for their kid off Amazon, sure I wish they wouldnt and I've absoluteky discussed how bad Amazon is. But when I know how little time and means they have, I'm not gonna crawl up their rear end about it. We are captured, compromised.

There's nothing wrong with telling people how terrible the agricultural industry is, encouraging them to eat less meat, or living as a good example. But when obtaining nutrients, necessary goods, and shelter is such a thoroughly captured process I don't see why anybody would have an aggressively holier-than-thou attitude about it. I personally would be more concerned with solidarity, winning allies.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 22:32

Thorn Wishes Talon: Oct 18, 2014; by Fluffdaddy

Discendo Vox posted:

Do you not have a star next to your name? Are you not a moderator? You're not responsible for all online discourse, but you sure as poo poo are responsible for the state of this discussion. If you recognize people are being "completely psychotic", how about you do something about it so that the people who aren't "completely psychotic" can have a discussion remotely grounded in reality!

What loving message do you thing it sends to people when the moderator acknowledges that they are running an "extremely depressing" discussion space and aren't doing anything about it?

The vegan moralizer breaks a whole bunch of rules and is still posting smug bullshit about how if we don't all become vegan we might as well vote Republican.

Then the mod comes in and, instead of enforcing the rules and running said poster off the thread as is their job, decries the quality of internet discussion.

It's like a big loving joke, and it's why this thread gets a tiny fraction of the traffic it used to get just a year ago.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 23:05

cat botherer: Jan 6, 2022; I am interested in most phases of data processing.

It�s not just the North Atlantic that�s getting kooky.

https://twitter.com/PCarterClimate/status/1667617037030670336

So that�s the 2m global average temperature. I wonder how much of this is due to maybe a one-two punch of entering El Ni�o and the now greatly reduced sulphur emissions in shipping since the lower sulphur caps were introduced.

# ? Jun 10, 2023 23:30

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

World Famous W posted:

im going to continue to eat the meat i get from the food bank that would be going into a dumpster or feeding dogs otherwise

Ok that's cool

# ? Jun 10, 2023 23:52

Potato Salad: Oct 23, 2014; nobody cares

World Famous W posted:

im going to continue to eat the meat i get from the food bank that would be going into a dumpster or feeding dogs otherwise

Name/post combo, actually.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 01:18

celadon: Jan 2, 2023

What is a little frustrating about the debate over vegetarianism as it relates to climate change is that it is arguably the least painful thing one can do to reduce the effects of their consumption. Like, it doesn't cost more to be a vegetarian, and if you're cooking for yourself, its not like it takes longer.

What's the material impact from some of the other societal.changes that may be necessary to avoid catastrophic climate change?

Reducing gasoline usage is going to require people make significant cuts to their own private transit, and would raise the costs of anything that is shipped around the country. It will also necessitate shortening commutes, which means people will have to move towards metro areas, which are more expensive.

Lowering energy use requires living in generally smaller homes and tolerating higher and lower temperatures than one otherwise would.

Consumption of consumer products also will be affected, people will need to buy more sustainably produced goods and probably fewer of them overall.

Air travel needs to be reduced, so people will not be as free to fly around for work or to see family or vacation. This will significantly affect peoples choices on where to live and what life experiences will be available to them.

And so on.

So many of the other changes we'll need to do are gonna be so much harder on people's quality of life, so its kinda demoralizing.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 03:44

His Divine Shadow: Aug 7, 2000; I'm not a fascist. I'm a priest. Fascists dress up in black and tell people what to do.

Things in the order I am unwilling to give them up would be;

-House
-Car
-Dairy
-Meat
-Fruits
-Consumption
-Non essential travel (vacations)
-Air travel all the way of the bottom on this list

I'd much rather sacrifice cheap goods and gadgets and global air travel first. And the idea that we should give up the things we value, so people can keep doing poo poo like mindless consumption and pointless travel is on the level of vegan moralizing to me. I'm willing to drastically cut all other forms of consumption first.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 04:51

VideoGameVet: May 14, 2005; It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion. It is by the juice of Java that pedaling acquires speed, the teeth acquire stains, stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my bike in motion.

People could eat less meat. I'm not saying they have to go 100% veg.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 05:08

Gucci Loafers: May 20, 2006; Ask yourself, do you really want to talk to pair of really nice gaudy shoes?

cat botherer posted:

The key to solve climate change is to endlessly nag people and focus on individual responsibility, and hope that billions of people spontaneously change their behaviors, irrespective of any material conditions or incentives they find themselves in. Companies such as BP are at the forefront of this fight, with innovative ideas such as getting people to calculate their "carbon footprint."

This also works great for reducing crime rates! We just need to get people to understand that murder is bad, and then we won't have murders.

fake edit: Isn't there already a vegan thread specifically for this kind of tedium?

What about there part where we learn and communicate to each other that these things are bad, vote for politicians that enact laws that at least make things better? We literally used to have leaded gasoline which is absolutely :eyepop:

Edit - I think we can still criticize folks more making poor choices but there is a difference between that and moralizing about it.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 05:22

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

VideoGameVet posted:

People could eat less meat. I'm not saying they have to go 100% veg.

Getting better meat is a good way to do this. Along with treating meat as a flavorant / seasoning and source of other ingredients like stock/ broth/ fat.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 05:33

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Thorn Wishes Talon posted:

I'm not sure I agree with this part. Capitalism is primarily about greed (IMHO), and it's totally possible to exploit that to achieve the goals and ends we need, even on a mass scale. If stuff like the CHIPS Act and the Inflation Reduction Act are able to cause a manufacturing and green energy boom in a matter of mere months (because corporation wants a piece of the pie) then similar things should be possible for say building a nation-wide high-speed rail network.

Owling Howl posted:

I don't think capitalism is really the problem. There's this idea that capitalism is forcing us to behave in this way so if we just get rid of it we'll all be better. Personally I think our species is just kinda lovely. Technology enables our worst impulses and capitalism serves them but ultimately the issue is our values.

People want to drive cars and live in houses and fly on vacation. I see no reason why we would stop wanting that just because our economic system is different. Across time and cultures humans have always desired material possessions and comfort. If we were a different species maybe we'd prefer to learn, experience or work less when we have accumulated excess wealth but mostly we just consume more.

Perhaps a system of government which is not beholden to the wills of electorates which implies authoritarianism but even then you still rely on some support to stay in power so you would not, in fact, have unlimited power. In any case the people that end up on top could have any conceivable set of values.

The issue of our values is ultimately a religious concept. The problem isn't necessarily "greed" either, although people can be greedy. Or even individual capitalists necessarily. But to get philosophical for a minute, the problem is that people aren't really in control. This capitalist system is what's pushing buttons, not the other way around. It's like a ship without the captain that becomes "self-aware" (to use an analogy) and then makes the crew rearrange themselves to serve it, rather than the other way around, the only driver being to self-reproduce capital forever by every means necessary. We're just units in the system or like the batteries in The Matrix, an instrument, a tool to help "the machine" realize itself, and that machine is controlling us, who are trapped in a collective hallucination which is reflected in various ideologies and religions and other projections from our minds.

There's also the problem with entropy. Science quiz: The natural tendency of any system is for the entropy to increase. If you don't control your diet, then you're going to grow larger or become a "machine" that has two modes: lying on the couch and getting up to get another pizza out of the fridge. If you don't control your sexual urges, you're going to get an STD sooner or later. If you don't control your curiosity, you wouldn't be able to stay focused while walking down the street. If you don't control your mind, every thought and action you take will be anticipated, carefully planned and "guided" in advance by the "machine" called capitalism and consumerism.

Capitalism doesn't want these controls, because it's all about spreading entropy, to make everything bigger and weirder at the expense of resources, and then it kills everything when there are no more resources to produce more entropy.

So at the end of the day, from the individual to the universe, it's all about entropy and controlling for it. The nature of control is to set up a system that can absorb and regulate information, energy, and matter from the external environment based on feedback in order to bring down the entropy within the system. Without control, the entropy reaches 100% and the system disintegrates and dies. Of course that's ultimately impossible in the long run because the tendency is to increase in the universe.

But you might be able to delay the inevitable doomsday by rearranging who is in control: this capitalist system that can self-manage itself or we control the ship and tell it where to go.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 10:26

Clarste: Apr 15, 2013; Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.

I don't think that's what entropy means.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 10:29

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

That's a timecube-tier definition of entropy you're creating there

# ? Jun 11, 2023 10:30

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 11:23

Strom Cuzewon: Jul 1, 2010

Lying on the couch seems extremely ordered and low-entropy to me.

# ? Jun 11, 2023 11:10

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