|
Scott Pilgrim is deliberately written as a selfish little poo poo, right?
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 06:26 |
|
|
Yes. Every even vaguely sympathetic person in the film says it at some point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 19:31
|
|
|
The thing with Scott Pilgrim is that, as much as he's obviously written as a terrible guy, there are any number of lovely romcoms with equally awful protagonists who are presented completely uncritically and are expected to be sympathetic. So a fair number of people missed the explicit text of the film because their expectations were primed by the media they consume, whether they love it and think Scott is a cool guy who gets video game noises when he fights or they hate it and think Scott is another terrible manchild protagonist.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 19:36
|
|
|
the holy poopacy posted:The thing with Scott Pilgrim is that, as much as he's obviously written as a terrible guy, there are any number of lovely romcoms with equally awful protagonists who are presented completely uncritically and are expected to be sympathetic. So a fair number of people missed the explicit text of the film because their expectations were primed by the media they consume, whether they love it and think Scott is a cool guy who gets video game noises when he fights or they hate it and think Scott is another terrible manchild protagonist. The willingness to immediately forgive with and side with a protagonist character is hardwired into a lot of people's brains. Sopranos might be the most obvious example because David Chase couldn't write a more contemptable version of Tony Soprano if he tried and people still idolized him in weird aspirational ways. Like the show even flat out says Tony is a vicious monster who, were you ever to meet someone like that, would harm or kill you over the slightest inconvenience. Breaking Bad and Mad Men are also pretty high up their. Anyone who idolizes Don Draper usually goes blank if you bring up how completely wrecked his life gets from alcohol, womanizing, and ego centered pride. The famous "one who knocks" scene from BB is hilarious in context, because it's Walt being angry and demeaning to his wife, someone he thinks he has total control over, while at the same time running around panicking and freaking out his cartel meth boss is mad at him and willing to hurt him. It's not a badass speech it's a borderline abuser berating his victim because he's scared of the consequences of his actions. pentyne has a new favorite as of 19:51 on Jun 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
pentyne posted:
While I agree with your post I do feel in this example they undercut their point by making the speech a bit too good. Walt gets moments and lines that are really good that do kinda sell him as being better than he is. Draper also gets this. I can understand how people who don't pay attention or only see clips could see them as cool. Tony Soprano otoh always comes off like a schmuck and an rear end in a top hat as far as I remember. I'm struggling to think of a scene where he doesn't come off a brute and an idiot that he actually speaks in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 20:33
|
|
|
Tony is stupid but has incredible charisma thanks to Gandolfini and that makes people want to root for him. Walt takes on evil drug lords with science wizardry. Don Draper is a cartoonishly handsome man with money and tons of gorgeous women around him. People don't root for them or sympathize with them because the audience is stupid, it's because they are compelling TV characters.
Henchman of Santa has a new favorite as of 20:58 on Jun 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:Bill Murray fandom in general is a thing that hasn't aged well. 10 years ago there were endless pieces about how he's a loveable eccentric who is impossible to hate but it turns out he's just a piece of poo poo. Say whatever the gently caress else you want about Ant-Man 3, but seeing Murray visibly poo poo the bed with contempt at saying silly Star Wars bullshit followed by Pfeiffer saying (via ADR?) "I swear 30 years ago he was charming" was hilarious. A Sometimes Food posted:While I agree with your post I do feel in this example they undercut their point by making the speech a bit too good. Walt gets moments and lines that are really good that do kinda sell him as being better than he is. Draper also gets this. I can understand how people who don't pay attention or only see clips could see them as cool. quote:Tony Soprano otoh always comes off like a schmuck and an rear end in a top hat as far as I remember. I'm struggling to think of a scene where he doesn't come off a brute and an idiot that he actually speaks in.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 20:57
|
|
|
A Sometimes Food posted:While I agree with your post I do feel in this example they undercut their point by making the speech a bit too good. Walt gets moments and lines that are really good that do kinda sell him as being better than he is. Draper also gets this. I can understand how people who don't pay attention or only see clips could see them as cool. Like I said, it's the contextual problem for those great man moments. The exact problem is when it gets distilled down to clips or just viewed the in lens of people who only want to watch 'crowning moments of badass' type stuff. Tony has some equally 'heroic' stuff going up against other 'evil' enemies that's lets people cheer his good luck, even when he's going up against the no good losers at the FBI who fumble and foible all over the place hoping to put him down. That said, he does a ton of truly despicable stuff in between all that to make it clear, no, Tony is a capital B bad person.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 21:02
|
|
|
Walt, Tony and Don are all slightly flawed, yes, but they all say and do cool things while being white men and having all the privileges thereof. Who among us wouldn’t want to be a privileged white man saying and doing cool stuff?
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 21:53
|
|
|
It's interesting how often the same misreads happen over and over again with certain types of media, like people thinking of Tony, don and Walter as aspirational instead of dysfunctional, or the same mistake that people still make about Steven Universe forgiving his final villains too easy when he actually does not, and after he stops them actively doing harm he actually avoids them as much as possible because he wants nothing to do with that lovely branch of his family as long as they aren't doing any more harm.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 22:40
|
|
|
Another thing to contribute to Scott Pilgrim talk; The whole reason he dates Knives in the first place is because after he got dumped by his ex, he wanted a relationship where the power was imbalanced in his favor, and so he decides to date a teenager.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 23:30
|
|
|
oldpainless posted:Walt, Tony and Don are all slightly flawed, yes, but they all say and do cool things while being white men and having all the privileges thereof. Who among us wouldn’t want to be a privileged white man saying and doing cool stuff? It’s really fun, not gonna lie
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2023 23:40
|
|
|
BioEnchanted posted:It's interesting how often the same misreads happen over and over again with certain types of media, like people thinking of Tony, don and Walter as aspirational instead of dysfunctional, or the same mistake that people still make about Steven Universe forgiving his final villains too easy when he actually does not, and after he stops them actively doing harm he actually avoids them as much as possible because he wants nothing to do with that lovely branch of his family as long as they aren't doing any more harm. I'm reminded of the 1971 Western Big Jake starring John Wayne where the other characters realise he's the man for the job because "It is, I think, going to be a very harsh and unpleasant kind of business and will, I think, require an extremely harsh and unpleasant kind of man to see to it." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3opoCWqrEPI It's a movie set in 1909 where the old gunfighters are a dying breed and even horses are being replaced by cars ("Hank! What happened to your spurs?" "Oh, they don't work on these newfangled velocipedes") but when the poo poo hits the fan they have to turn to a hardbitten tough guy who still remembers the old way of doing things even though he's a gigantic rear end in a top hat who no longer has a place among them. He represents the old ways and the old values which everyone thought had already passed on - every time he gets introduced someone says "Jacob McCandles? I thought you were dead!" and he snarls "Not hardly." There's a pretty clear message that even if you don't like his way of handling things you have to respect it, eg: there's a scene right at the start where Big Jake returns after a 10 year absence and his adult son is sassing him and calling him 'Daddy' so he beats the poo poo out of him, and the film ends with him saving his grandson's life and the kid immediately starts calling him 'Sir'. It's pretty much Jack Nicholson's "You want me on that wall -- you need me on that wall!" speech from A Few Good Men except at the end everyone agrees that he's right, we do need a violent oldfashioned rear end in a top hat with an ironclad creed to take care of business even if it means a whole lot of people get killed along the way.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 07:10
|
|
|
Snowglobe of Doom posted:I'm reminded of the 1971 Western Big Jake starring John Wayne where the other characters realise he's the man for the job because "It is, I think, going to be a very harsh and unpleasant kind of business and will, I think, require an extremely harsh and unpleasant kind of man to see to it." Yeah, that sounds like exactly the film John Wayne would have made in 1971. Pretending the world hadn't passed him by.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 07:46
|
|
|
See also: Demolition Man
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 08:21
|
|
|
BioEnchanted posted:It's interesting how often the same misreads happen over and over again with certain types of media, like people thinking of Tony, don and Walter as aspirational instead of dysfunctional, or the same mistake that people still make about Steven Universe forgiving his final villains too easy when he actually does not, and after he stops them actively doing harm he actually avoids them as much as possible because he wants nothing to do with that lovely branch of his family as long as they aren't doing any more harm. People were up in arms about that ending?
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 14:32
|
|
|
Autisanal Cheese posted:People were up in arms about that ending? Like you would not believe.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 14:38
|
|
|
Autisanal Cheese posted:People were up in arms about that ending? There are still comments on more recent videos misunderstanding that it wasn't an ending to the story for the characters but the beginning of a long process. similar to the ending of Future, where it gets dismissed as "Steven's brain problems get fixed by a hug" when the point is that that moment is his family seeing him at emotional rock bottom, the biggest fear he has through out the epilogue comes true, everyone sees what a mess he is inside but they accept him, so that allows him to start his journey to a better place because he knows that they get it. It's not the end of his brain problems, it's that he's finally forced to admit to them and get real help and starts therapy. It's like with Heffer in Rocko's Modern Life, a lot of fans dismiss him as a mess and he is, but he actually has a very complete arc throughout the show if you watch the episodes in order - starting as a spoiled manchild living with his family, trying to find his place with various jobs, a Museum night shift (that he doesn't do well in because he's still too childish and is afraid of the dark), then a stint managing a branch of his favourite fast food restaurant and living in an apartment on his own that's been fashioned out of the sign, that goes well at first until a toxic roommate shows up, keeps him up all night and indulges his worst behaviours even though he's TRYING to be responsible, resulting in the closure of the restaurant and him having a mental break as his body walks him back home while his mind is still in denial during a phone call to his mother as he yammers on about how well he's doing on his own, not realising that the line is long since disconnected as the cord snapped hours ago. He arrives back home broken, his family take pity on him and make him feel comfortable, recognising now that him staying with them isn't about him being irresponsible anymore but that he needs that security to fall back on, and finally he reaches an equilibrium as he finds a job that he loves and is passionate about doing well while still living at home for the security. He ends in a similar place to where he starts, but a FAR better version of it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 14:49
|
|
|
pentyne posted:The famous "one who knocks" scene from BB is hilarious in context, because it's Walt being angry and demeaning to his wife, someone he thinks he has total control over, while at the same time running around panicking and freaking out his cartel meth boss is mad at him and willing to hurt him. It's not a badass speech it's a borderline abuser berating his victim because he's scared of the consequences of his actions. It's also as Jesse is going to kill Gale. Jesse is literally the one who knocks in that scene. Like the entire thing is Walt at his most pathetic and hypocritical. And it's hilarious because, putting aside what a piece of poo poo he is, Walt does have some badass villain moments. "Stay out of my territory" and "say my name" are legitimately badass moments. "I am the one who knocks!" is a terrified and pathetic man lying to himself and his abused wife.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 15:45
|
|
|
RoboChrist 9000 posted:It's also as Jesse is going to kill Gale. Jesse is literally the one who knocks in that scene. It's like the way he killed all those people in prison. Everybody talks about how genius the plan was even though all he did was give the nazis a bunch of money and say "figure it out."
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 15:47
|
|
|
Vince has said that he does get slightly bothered by the number of people that dont get BB and end up idolising Walter White. I feel like his final scene in BCS was his way of driving home what a pedantic and spiteful piece of poo poo WW is/was, and loudly restating the thesis statement (that Walt was always like this, and Jimmy never had a chance to not be) for those at the back who missed it the first time around.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2023 19:49
|
|
|
Torquemada posted:See also: Demolition Man Weirdly enough I hadn't seen it, so I just grabbed a copy and watched it now. I guess this is pretty much the conservative equivalent of Idiocracy, it's the most "This is the future that liberals want" movie I've ever seen.  It feels like such a weirdly compromised film, it barely scratches the surface of its central thesis of "You need an oldfashioned cop to deal with an oldfashioned criminal" (especially since Phoenix was never an oldfashioned criminal and he's even less so now that he's a super-enhanced hacker criminal) and it even tries to have it both ways with a limp "Now that the villain is gone maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle" ending. Also the actual villain was Dr. Cocteau and the totalitarian "political correctness" he personified but he was killed pretty much as an afterthought and his evil plot didn't really get a satisfying resolution. They could have done so much more with what they had. There were a bunch of other plot elements which also weren't resolved - they did a bunch of work establishing a subplot about John's missing adult daughter and they obviously filmed it (she was one of the 'scraps' living in squalor underground with Denis Leary, you can still see her in a bunch of shots) but they cut it from the film so that thread is just left dangling. Also it's pretty obvious that a fight between Stallone and Jesse Ventura happened in there someone but got cut, what a drat waste.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 00:37
|
|
|
Plus he didn’t know how to use the three seashells!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 00:46
|
|
|
BioEnchanted posted:There are still comments on more recent videos misunderstanding that it wasn't an ending to the story for the characters but the beginning of a long process. similar to the ending of Future, where it gets dismissed as "Steven's brain problems get fixed by a hug" when the point is that that moment is his family seeing him at emotional rock bottom, the biggest fear he has through out the epilogue comes true, everyone sees what a mess he is inside but they accept him, so that allows him to start his journey to a better place because he knows that they get it. It's not the end of his brain problems, it's that he's finally forced to admit to them and get real help and starts therapy. My only issue with Steven Universe was that no one ever stayed mad at Rose. Yeah she is gone, but you'd think at some point especially after the reveal, people outside her discarded playtoy would be loving furious with her for the secrets and lies. But like Rhaegar Targaryen, the things that never are are better than the things that are, because things that never are never have a chance to fail. I remember some fan theory that, since all the Diamonds have powers, Pink's power was to receive love. Not project it, she could never actually feel it, even as Rose Quartz, but like how Blue could project emotions, Pink simply sucked them up like a changeling or a vampire. She couldn't feel it, couldn't appreciate it, but it fed her. Which is why so many people loved and adored her; they didn't have a choice. Even Jasper raged about how she kept trying to impress someone who wasn't there anymore. The two Pearls had little choice either, especially when one of them was loving bound by magic to never speak a word of some things. That was in part why Rose never cared really about Pearl, she literally couldn't. Greg was only different because he demanded to be treated like an equal. Pearl even mentioned Rose had had dozens of men before but none of them mattered to Rose. I'm actually rewatching mad men right now. It's amazing how no one is actually loving happy in the show, and I'm just in season 1. And it is funny to see how Don reacts to all the insane poo poo around him, like Roger loving riding a model like a horse, in the office, or the guys calling various women fat; Don never partakes, he looks disapproving, even states it a few times, but he's also a shameless womanizer, treats his wife like poo poo, and has few lines he won't cross. Compared to say, Roger, and there is very little he won't do on a whim or because it sounds fun. Roger sees no issue gawking and making comments about women behind one-way glass, Don has enough "class" to not do that around the other hooting and laughing men.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 00:52
|
|
|
Cowslips Warren posted:I'm actually rewatching mad men right now. It's amazing how no one is actually loving happy in the show, and I'm just in season 1. And it is funny to see how Don reacts to all the insane poo poo around him, like Roger loving riding a model like a horse, in the office, or the guys calling various women fat; Don never partakes, he looks disapproving, even states it a few times, but he's also a shameless womanizer, treats his wife like poo poo, and has few lines he won't cross. Compared to say, Roger, and there is very little he won't do on a whim or because it sounds fun. Roger sees no issue gawking and making comments about women behind one-way glass, Don has enough "class" to not do that around the other hooting and laughing men. It's a strange thing to me that after finishing Mad Men and knowing how utterly horrible most everyone in the show is that I find Roger, the guy who literally puts on black face and sings mammy, to be one of the most understandable and affecting characters in the show. I hate that gently caress but he knows who he is, especially after his trip and what not. Don gives off this feeling like he thinks he's better or superior, Roger is just an rear end in a top hat who acts/knows that what he does is terrible and owns it. That's almost commendably hideous and I hate that I think that, but gently caress Don Draper and anyone who aspires to be him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 02:42
|
|
|
Roger rules because John Slattery rules.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 13:52
|
|
|
Cowslips Warren posted:My only issue with Steven Universe was that no one ever stayed mad at Rose. Yeah she is gone, but you'd think at some point especially after the reveal, people outside her discarded playtoy would be loving furious with her for the secrets and lies. But like Rhaegar Targaryen, the things that never are are better than the things that are, because things that never are never have a chance to fail. I mean having some kinda completely unspoken psychic superpower in a show that's all about eventually spelling out its emotional themes feels like one of those real stupid fan theories. Pink was just charismatic, and near uniquely for a Diamond, actually pretty nice and open when in a good mood, which for an absolute monarch everyone is required to adore has to be a breath of fresh air. Rose Quartz is the same, of course, being too charismatic for her own good and prone to attracting attention and feelings well before she started to develop the capacity to understand them, let alone properly reprociate. If there's anything implied it's that Rose was all too aware how badly she'd hosed up, and her emotional development eventually led to her choosing to end her life in the process of passing on her life and Gem to a child; that she didn't see any way that she could fix things herself, but maybe a different person, a different kind of being, with her power and position could. Which was still not exactly fair to Steven as the entire show demonstrates. Kinda the point is that absolute authority sucks for everyone involved when so much power rests on the judgement and state of a single fragile mind.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 14:11
|
|
|
MokBa posted:Roger rules because John Slattery rules. We will build casinos...on the moon!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 14:12
|
|
|
DrBouvenstein posted:We will build casinos...on the moon! With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the blackjack and the casinos!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 14:12
|
|
|
Icon Of Sin posted:With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the blackjack and the casinos!
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 14:19
|
|
|
MokBa posted:Roger rules because John Slattery rules. Every time you see him on screen, part of me thinks they didn't actually script anything and everything he is doing is totally ad lib because he just plays that part so insanely well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
Squidster posted:If you liked the style of Scott Pilgrim, you should check out Polite Society for an Edgar Wright-inspired brawl/heist. oh word? i’ll put it on the list then, i like Edgar Wright’s poo poo for the most part
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:13
|
|
|
TGG posted:It's a strange thing to me that after finishing Mad Men and knowing how utterly horrible most everyone in the show is that I find Roger, the guy who literally puts on black face and sings mammy, to be one of the most understandable and affecting characters in the show. I hate that gently caress but he knows who he is, especially after his trip and what not. Don gives off this feeling like he thinks he's better or superior, Roger is just an rear end in a top hat who acts/knows that what he does is terrible and owns it. That's almost commendably hideous and I hate that I think that, but gently caress Don Draper and anyone who aspires to be him. people who aspire to be don draper are the worst explicitly because don draper doesn’t want to be don draper. he was never comparable to the BB/Sopranos examples because he explicitly wants and tries to be better, and it his failures and collapsing into cycles that define the show’s middle period arcs. whether or not he succeeds is up to the Reader of course, but i just wanted to call out that him not being irredeemable was part of the appeal of the show for me
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:16
|
|
|
MokBa posted:Roger rules because John Slattery rules. yeah they roll a 20 on all of their CHA checks. it’d work on me. it’d work on anyone. he’s too cool
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:16
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:people who aspire to be don draper are the worst explicitly because don draper doesn’t want to be don draper. he was never comparable to the BB/Sopranos examples because he explicitly wants and tries to be better, and it his failures and collapsing into cycles that define the show’s middle period arcs. whether or not he succeeds is up to the Reader of course, but i just wanted to call out that him not being irredeemable was part of the appeal of the show for me He's always failing because he never learns the tools to succeed, he can say all the fancy words he wants but deep down does not fundamentally understand how to be happy. Some great parts of Megan's arc are when she has to be the voice of reason, the adult in the relationship, even as the show in general portrays her as immature.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:20
|
|
|
pentyne posted:He's always failing because he never learns the tools to succeed, he can say all the fancy words he wants but deep down does not fundamentally understand how to be happy. Some great parts of Megan's arc are when she has to be the voice of reason, the adult in the relationship, even as the show in general portrays her as immature. i will preserve my own thoughts and further analysis on this for the Mad Men thread if you would like to take it there. I don’t entirely disagree with you, but my optimistic nature has me thinking he finally breaks good in some way in the finale.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:21
|
|
|
I haven't seen any of the prestige TV shows and I'm so far behind in all media ever made at this point I don't think I can even get started.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:37
|
|
|
Succession is only 39 episodes long, and it begins with a guy wearing a mascot suit vomiting out the eyeholes in front of a bunch of kids.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:40
|
|
|
I do have multiple people telling me to watch that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 22:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 06:26 |
|
|
I'm really enjoying The Americans. I kinda prefer watching a show when it's already over so I know how much there is and whether it totally shits the bed at some point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2023 23:40
|
|
